Expansion Tank Install

Diggles007

Good day!

New Indirect tank here in Ontario, where does the expansion tank need to be installed?

On the Cold water main in going into the indirect tank correct?

Thank you

Jamie Hall

It can be on either the inlet or outlet. Main thing is to ensure that it is precharged to whatever your domestic water pressure is…

hot_rod

and downstream of any check valves installed at the tank, on recirc systems for example.

Diggles007

It seems to be installed going directly into the cold water main inlet on the indirect, then the indirect tank goes to the combi.

hot_rod

sounds correct, a picture might help determine better.

Diggles007

The psi is off the charts lol but I think its correct. I will get a photo.

Diggles007

Here is the new NTi installation with the expansion.

Not sure why the expansion tank is set up with the PSI (not at zero) it spun way past 30 and stopped at the pin)

Also the tank pressure seems way to high to me as well. How do we correct this? I am in Ontario.

Thank you

neilc

withdrawn

neilc

I gotta learn to read the whole thread before adding nonsense

Diggles007

lol no problem.

I tried to let out some air from the bottom of the expansion but nothing changed on the gauge.

Any ideas on why my NTi indirect pressure is so high as well?

Thank you

EdTheHeaterMan

Actually that expansion tank and manifold with the gauge is not for potable water side of the system. that should be on the closed loop side of the system. Wrong application. You can not accurately measure 75 to 80 PSI with a gauge that only goes up to 30 PSI maximum.

There are two sides the an indirect water heater. The potable side of the system, which is the open system. That is the cold water from the water service into your home, then exits at a hot or cold water valve, tap or faucet. What is commonly called city water pressure. That can be as high as 70 or 80 PSI in some homes. Then there is the other side of the indirect tank. that is connected to a closed heating system boiler. That is usually operated at 12 to 18 PSI if everything is correct and your home is 2 stories with a basement (or less).

Same size tank, same dimensions, but different coating inside and different pre-charge pressure.

If you have that expansion tank, 30 PSI gauge and temperature / pressure gauge on the open system side of the water piping, then you are using the wrong tank, pressure gauge, and combination temperature pressure gauge. All those parts need to be on the closed system side that operates at a lower pressure. Here is the link for the installation instructions. https://www.pexuniverse.com/uploads/docs/pdf/cal-exp-t-instr.pdf

If you have all the ferrous metal on the open system side, you will start to see rusty drinking water, and rust stains in your sink and bath tub in a few months. The open system side needs the HGTE-5 tank, with a zero to 100 0r 120 PSI gauge, and the bracket must be HGSC-SS Wall Mount Bracket, the stainless steel one

Someone made a mistake in the procurement department or in the shipping department/

Larry Weingarten

Hi, I may be in the wrong ballpark, but the horizontal gauge seems to be reading about 85 psi. That's gotta be isolated from the pressure tank that says 30 psi CDN, right? I think I'd bleed off the pressure on the water side of the expansion tank, replace the gauge, charge the tank to an appropriate pressure, and refill the water side to match.
Others who actually know what they're doing can now give you the correct answer 😏

Yours, Larry

Diggles007

wow thank you for the information!

HGTE-5 tank, with a zero to 100 0r 120 PSI gauge.

I cannot reuse the bracket and bleeder? and place the new pressure gauge on it? Or does the bracket have to be the HGSC-SS Wall Mount Bracket, the stainless steel one. where is the home for the bleeder / pressure guage on this bracket I don't see it.

Thank you so much

EdTheHeaterMan

No bleeder is necessary on an open system. And the *innerds of the bracket you have will cause that rust thing to happen on an open system.

*Innerds is a technical term used in the industry

EDIT: If you want a pressure gauge, you will need to add a tee fitting made of brass, copper or stainless steel to accommodate the gauge. And most folks are ok with 60 PSI water pressure. amything above that may cause fixture failures on a regular basis. You may want to consider a pressure reducing valve for you water inlet, if your actual water pressure is consistently over 80 PSI.

Diggles007

Thank you so much Ed! I have corrected the parts and ordered the HGTE-5 tank with the HGSC-SS Wall Mount Bracket

they also had this for the pressure gauge as an option which I also ordered.

Diggles007

this service valve was not available . but I did get the bracket, with a separate PSI guage.

The HGTE-5 tank  was not available so I got the WATTS PLT5 potable expansion.

Hope this works with that stainless steel bracket.

Installer said it was fine. (As it was potable and safe for domestic)

Thoughts on the PLT 5 potable tank with the HGSC-SS Wall Mount? can they be mixed this way?

Diggles007

Here is what the updated expansion looks like with a better PSi guage.

My pressure it about 80+ here in Newmarket Ontario.

I'm happy the expansion is now domestic safe and potable (with a stainless steel bracket)

Diggles007

Everything working smoothly so far. Just have a few questions.

There was a Tee and cap created (assuming this was where the heating side expansion was going to go?)

1. Are there any issues with water contamination with legionella in this cap contaminating my tank (it goes to the Hot water boiler In) Tank temp is set at 60 Celcius which kills this (but My thought process is, it will sit in this odd cap and grow bacteria in this area)
2. the shut off for this doesn't entirely open all the way (about 95%) as it hits the odd T / cap is this an issue? (and I know I can flip it, but it wont work as it hits the tank)
   1. Do they sell shorter shut off arms that I can just swap very quicky taking the nut off etc. and it will clear the odd T / Cap

Do you see any issues with this being here? Are there any risks of pressure blowing that cap off? Or am I overthinking everything as always. lol

Thank you kindly.

Larry Weingarten

Hi, If the valve could be rotated just 90 degrees, that would fix the valve opening problem. The handle could be bent or cut shorter, but that would not be something to be proud of. 😔 Then, if the vertical pipe under the cap could be shortened, it would "smallify" the dead leg, making it less of legionella concern. It's already pretty small, so good insulation on everything might give enough protection. Also, with a good soldering job, the cap isn't going to blow off.

Yours, Larry

Diggles007

Thank you Larry! Good tips, I like the shortening the dead leg a little bit idea :)

Also as this is coming from my boiler (super hot) and into my indirect (Set at 60) wouldn't this just kill that bacteria anyways? And having it open at about 96% still makes it function, does it need to be fully open to function properly or that doesn't matter? I'm trying to find a short handle version to swap, but I don't think that exists. I Think I overthink everything as well, lol

This is also in the closed loop I believe on the heating side and wouldn't be in my drinking water?

Thank you so much!

Larry Weingarten

Hi, If there is no way for this water to get into the potable side, there is no risk of legionella from it. Anything 140F or higher kills off the bug. My only concern about the ball valve not opening fully is that the ball is not swept clean by use, so may build up debris which then may score the seals and let the valve leak. I think it's a really small point, but as long as we're thinking about things… 😁

Yours, Larry

hot_rod

the state of Wisconsin now requires the flow thru type DHW expansion tanks. Concerns about stagnate water in the tank breeding bacteria

EdTheHeaterMan

See if this handle will work:

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Webstone-H-H40403-Lever-Handle-for-3-4-Ball-Valve

Diggles007

I appreciate the help everyone! Thank you so much~!!

I have confirmed that the spot where the dead leg is, is actually on the heating loop, which goes to the boiler, into the indirect, and to the air handler for heat, its never on the domestic side! THank goodness. So I think I can sleep at night now.

I havent considered a different handle! Thank you Ed! Amazon has these that I was going to try also!!

Appreciate everyone's help on this!

https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B074386FSP/ref%3Dox_sc_act_image_2?smid=A2AWTGDHMLIJ14&psc=1

https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B074373TH6/ref%3Dox_sc_act_image_1?smid=A2AWTGDHMLIJ14&th=1

Lyle {pheloa} Carter

I can't quite tell can't quite tell from your photos, But it looks like this handle is the reversible type. If there's enough of an area to swing the handle towards the tank, The handle can be taken off and installed in a one hundred and eighty degree reverse of what it is now. It looks like the brass stops are on the valve to allow this. Then when the valve is open, it will be pointed in the other direction.

Diggles007

Thank you everyone, so the handle cant be turned around as mentioned, unfortunately at this rotation it hits the tank.

The ones from amazon above didn't fit :(.

I want to order the one that Ed suggested but its US only.

Would I be looking for 1-1/4 shut off replacement valve handles? I cant seem to find replacements that fit, and that are much shorter (or vertical)

if anyone finds one (from amazon.ca) or somewhere they ship to Canada that you think would fit I would appreciate it. Thank you so much!

I may just consider bending the current handle for now to ensure its open all the way in the time being.

Any thoughts?

Much appreciated!! Thank you everyone!

Diggles007

Thank you everyone.

Unfortunately that handle cannot be reversed, because the tank is in the way and it doesn't fit I tried this :(

The above two links also didn't fit. I want to order the handle Ed suggested, but it will not ship to Canada.

Would I need to find a 1-1/4 shut off valve handle that is short? I cant seem to find one that works or fits. Any ideas from Amazon.ca, or a website that ships to Canada where I can just swap the handle with a shorter handle?

Thank you so much everyone!!!

Diggles007

My Watts potable expansion tank was never set to match my home PSI (Its at 80Psi here in Newmarket Ontario)

I believe the WATTS potable tank is pre set at 20 Psi. Doesn't this render the tank useless?

How do I set this to match my 80Psi at the tap? Can I do it installed? Or would I have to take it off, empty the water, and set the psi to 80? Id like to do this safely and properly.

Thank you as always!

Diggles007

Update, I just checked the PSi of the expansion at the bottom and its reading the same pressure as the psi gauge on my water in around 82.8.

I am confused as this expansion tank was never set, is it just reading the same pressure because its basically full of water and not doing its job? If so should I remove it, set it at 80, and put it back? or is it functioning this way?

Remember it was never set, just installed with its default setting of I believe 20Psi from factory?

Thank you

Larry Weingarten

Hi, I think you can only get a meaningful pressure measurement from the tank when it's isolated or disconnected from the system.

Yours, Larry

Diggles007

Thank you Larry! And you suggest that it should match my water pressure at the tap to ensure its functioning properly?

Appreciate it!

Larry Weingarten

Hi and yes. When it's disconnected, charge it up to match the water pressure. I'll add that I like to see pressures between 40 and 60 psi. 80 is putting a lot of strain on things. So, a pressure regulator would be a good addition as long as you don't have old, clogged up steel plumbing.
Yours, Larry

Diggles007

Thank you Larry! I believe one was installed and came with the home, but its only going into the combi? Im assuming this was to keep the pressure safe for the boiler itself only.

And My home is about 14+ years old so possible newer style PEX seems to be around the home.

Thank you

EdTheHeaterMan

The tank is connected to 82.8 PSI water pressure, that water pressure will compress the air in the tank to 82.8 PSI. All this means is that from a factory charge of 20 or 40 or 50 PSI when you install the tank and apply 82.8 PSI water pressure to the tank, then your tank has less of an air cushion to accept expanding water from the water heater. This is an illustration from this discussion

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1747354#Comment_1747354

that explains this concept although the pressures are much lower since they refer to a closed loop system at approximately 20 PSI nominal operating pressure.

Can you see the bottom row of tanks with different pre-charge pressures when they are not connected to the water pressure of the system. The high pressure of 18 PSI has the same amount of water in the tank as the tank with 6 PSI pre-charge pressure. ZERO Gallons of water! When you connect them to a 20 PSI water pressure system, the 18 PSI tank only needs about 15% of the tank to fill with water pressure to compress the air to 20 PSI. The tank with 12 PSI needs more water to compress the air to 20 PSI. Maybe about 1/2 of the tank is filled with cold water. But the tank with only a 6 PSI pre-charge pressure will be almost 80% full of water when connected to a 20 PSI system pressure.

Now that is the cold fill pressure. when the water is heated in the system that water will expand. and the tank with the lowest pre-charge pressure has almost no room for expansion. so that system may pass the relief valve pressure setting and leak water out of the relief valve. The tank that has the highest pressure (without exceeding the system cold set pressure) will have the most room of expansion, and therefore will have the least amount of pressure fluctuation when the water is heated.

I hope this illustration helps!

EdTheHeaterMan

There is one important note about your system. Your water pressure is too high and you may be better off it you install a pressure reducing valve near the water inlet to your home (near the water meter)

That said, if you choose to keep your water pressure at 82.8 PSI for some reason, make a note of the manufacturers installation and operating instructions. DO NOT PRE-CHARGE THE TANK PRESSURE ABOVE 80 PSI.

https://www.watts.com/dfsmedia/0533dbba17714b1ab581ab07a4cbb521/12107-source/2915054-pdf

Read Item 1 and 2 on the second page of this instruction manual.

So it appears that you need to charge the tank to about 79 PSI when it is disconnected from your water pressure.

Diggles007

noted!! Thank you so much!! I have removed it (seemed like it was basically full of water?)

And I will fill it to 79 PSI as stated by the manual (Thank you Ed)

If my pressure is slightly above this, wont be counter intuitive for the purpose of holding half of the expansion tank with air>?

I will charge it up to 79 and reinstall it. Thank you so much!