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Boiler not kicking on

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aaajaws3
aaajaws3 Member Posts: 10

Went to raise the temp this AM. found the reset on the burner tripped , pushed it in .

Power is on at the circuit board, demand lights are on from the thermostat. I can hear the water circulating in the the zones. Burner NEVER kicked on

  1. Oil tank is almost filled
  2. Furnace cleaning service / filter /nozzle replacement held last fall. 90% of the time used my woodstove so little use on the boiler.
  3. hit the reset button on the square box on top of the motor , I'm calling that the transformer…..NOTHING. That does not lock in .
  4. the is a reset button on the motor , never locks in when pressed. tried to push in NOTHING.

No noises , never fires or tries to fire up.

Any suggestions would help greatly , Servicing business now only delivers oil no more repair / services calls

unit is 22 years old I do have a a Multimeter and not afraid to use it.

Comments

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,442
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    Do NOT, repeat NOT hit that reset button again. There are a number of possible reasons why a burner wouldn't start, but unless you are at least somewhat familiar with oil burners, trying to find the problem is not a DIY job. Nor even a job for a tech. unfamiliar with them.

    You're going to need a heating man who is familiar with oil burners to come and find the problem — and among the things he'll want to know is just how many times you pressed which reset button.

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • STEAM DOCTOR
    STEAM DOCTOR Member Posts: 2,010
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    You need to kick it a bit harder. Just joking. Working on oil burners, or any boilers, is typically not a do it your self job.

    SuperTech
  • STEAM DOCTOR
    STEAM DOCTOR Member Posts: 2,010
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    Do you have any electrical experience?

  • Big Ed_4
    Big Ed_4 Member Posts: 2,806
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    Flip open the transformer and move the fan toward the rear , maybe the pump will free up …..

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

  • STEAM DOCTOR
    STEAM DOCTOR Member Posts: 2,010
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    You can try to jump out the aquastat. Or try to turn it up just for kicks.

  • aaajaws3
    aaajaws3 Member Posts: 10
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    The first thing I read multiple times was when the burner was not firing "press the rest button" ?? I thought that's what the button was for? Breakers in my home will trip . I reset and never an issue again ?

  • aaajaws3
    aaajaws3 Member Posts: 10
    edited May 9
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    Yes electrical experience… also set T-stats to 89 degrees to induce the call for heat . Red lights at the control board do come on "demand for heat is there"

  • STEAM DOCTOR
    STEAM DOCTOR Member Posts: 2,010
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    Pushing it once is okay. More often will cause oil to be sprayed into the combustion chamber. Not good. Do you know where the aquastat is?

  • JMWHVAC
    JMWHVAC Member Posts: 43
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    The aquastat may not be sending power to the burners primary control if pushing the reset does nothing. Check for power going to the primary control (the primary control is the box with the red reset button). If it has power, the primary may have failed, if no power then the problem is in the aquastat. Note, there is only power to the primary if there is a call for heat.

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,442
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    As @STEAM DOCTOR said, push more than once — not OK. This is not a circuit breaker. This restarts the burner control, if it does anything — and sprays fuel into the fire box. If it ignites, wonderful. If it doesn't, it sits there. And every time you push the button and it doesn't ignite, more fuel gets in there and sits.

    Then… one time… someone or something manages to get the ignition to fire. More than one reset? You may just get a loud bang. You may also get the entire boiler in shrapnel all over the room.

    Just Don't Do It.

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    bburdGGross
  • MaxMercy
    MaxMercy Member Posts: 514
    edited May 9
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    Correct, but too often people keep pushing the reset button, and if the pump restarts but there's no ignition, the oil stays inside the combustion chamber. So every time the reset is pushed and there's no ignition, more oil builds up. Modern controls will limit how many times you can push the reset without ignition but any failsafe can fail.

    And even if the reset "fixes" it, it really didn't. The controller will lock out when the fuel is pumping but there's no ignition for anywhere between 15 and 45 seconds (depending on controller). Since ignition should happen the instant the transformer turns on, then even 2 seconds without combustion is an eternity. Even if your reset fixes it, the burner isn't running right. A single reset, even successful, means there's trouble a brewin'..

    But, since you said there was "nothing" when the controller reset button was pushed, I'm guessing there was indeed nothing - the motor and pump not moving and no response to the push. Like Big Ed said, the pump or motor could be jammed (they're coupled together). If the pump doesn't turn, at least there's no danger of building unburnt oil in the chamber.

    Take a pic of the aquastat and post that.

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 8,099
    edited May 10
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    @aaajaws3 said: Pushing the RESET and "NOTHING"

    If I might interpret.  There are three things that may be happening here

    1. The reset may not be tripped and the control does not need to be reset.  So pressing the button will have no effect 
    2. The reset is tripped and pressing the button will cause the burner motor to start but no flame.
    3. The reset button is tripped and pressing the reset button does not cause the motor to start operating. Maybe you can hear the ignition transformer or not But the control will trip again in 45 seconds.  

    I’m going to say that number 2 is the reason that you should only reset once.  I’m also going to guess that this is NOT what @aaajaws3 is experiencing.   Since he said “NOTHING '' I'm going to guess that he is experiencing either number 1 or number 3.   

    Number 1 could be because there is no call to the T T terminals of the primary control (that R8184 control is called the primary)  You test that by placing a jumper wire to connect T T simulating a call for heat.

    Number 1 can also be a result of not 120 VAC to the black and white wire to the primary control.  

    That's what I would check first,  Got 120 VAC and got a call for heat.  If you verify that then you go to the next step. 

    In any case, if pressing the reset button does cause the motor to operate and you get no flame, then you take steps to make sure no more oil will go to the nozzle. I would always remove the high pressure copper line that connected the pump to the nozzle assembly and place that copper flare connection on a 300 PSI pressure gauge. That was a guarantee that no additional oil would go into the chamber while I was testing for other problems.

    But it sounds like there is no motor operating by @aaajaws3 statement "NOTHING"

    Can you verify that @aaajaws3

    EDIT: Your primary control, after closer inspection, is a R4184D and therefore does not have T T so just check for 120 VAC at the black and white wires that are in the box above the motor, under the control.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    aaajaws3LRCCBJ
  • aaajaws3
    aaajaws3 Member Posts: 10
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    EdTheHeaterMan you are correct ABSOLUTELY nothing happening . The reset button is like a GFI that you can not push in to reset because no power to the circuit , it does not "catch" so could that be no power to the transformer . Its as if no power is coming to the burner / motor / transformer but everywhere else.

  • aaajaws3
    aaajaws3 Member Posts: 10
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    For the record I pushed the reset once and it locked in but did absolutely nothing . now its as I said no locking in . no power to it im guessing .

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 8,099
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    UPDATED DIAGRAM

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 8,099
    edited May 10
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    If you have power to the R4184D primary control Black and White wires, and the relay does not send power to the Orange and White wire when you reset the control, then that relay is defective. Replace that relay with a new electronic primary control, they have diagnostic features and are safer with a max 15 second safety timing.

    This is my go to replacement, there are others but I like this one the best, and it has a 5 year warranty.

    https://www.supplyhouse.com/Carlin-Combustion-70200S-Pro-X-Universal-Oil-Primary-Control-120-VAC

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 8,099
    edited May 10
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    EdTheHeaterMan you are correct (I hear that a lot) ABSOLUTELY nothing happening . The reset button is like a GFI that you can not push in to reset because no power to the circuit , it does not "catch"

    That is because it is not tripped

    This means that you have condition #1 so check to see if you have power to the Aquasmart B1 and B2. If you have power to B1 and B2 on the Aquasmart, and you still have no power to the Orange on the R4182D, then there's your problem. Either the wires from the Aquasmart to the Primary is bad or the R4182D control is bad.

    If you have no power to the B1 and B2 of the Aquasmart then check the TR to TW on the Aquasmart with a temporary jumper.

    If you get power to B1 and B2 on the Aquasmart when you jump TR to TW then the problem is in the red wires that connect the TACO ZVC406 to the Aquasmart… OR… the TACO ZVC406 is not sending the call for heat signal to the Aquasmart.

    The Aquasmart is telling us that the boiler water is cold (62°F) so I don't think this is a water circulation problem, or air in the pipes.

    You want to be sure that there is a call for heat from one of the zones on the TACO ZVC406 that means that there must be at least one RED light on the ZVC panel lit.

    If this gets the job done, then great….

    If you still have a problem, then let me know your electric meter and Jumper test results and I will answer you after my morning meeting.

    And have a productive day on the farm. I always like chatting with folks like you, who is out-standing in his field.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • aaajaws3
    aaajaws3 Member Posts: 10
    edited May 10
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    Yes HAVE 120VAC on the black and white wires……… so Bad R4184D Primary ? As from my old Navy days "we have the Goes inta's but we don't have the Goes outa's" I double checked the connections at the wire nuts making sure all connections were good and tight. Made sure the call for heat from T-stat yellow light on, Red light on circ pump was running and still no boiler activity.

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 8,099
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    One thing can cause that situation when the control is operating properly.

    The burner will not start if there is a flame signal, So remove one of the yellow wires from F F and see if the burner starts.

    • if yes, then the Cad Cell Eye is the problem,
    • If no, Then the control is shot

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    rick in Alaska
  • aaajaws3
    aaajaws3 Member Posts: 10
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    Yellow wire removed from F demand and circ pump came on but no boiler so bad R4184D controller ?

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 8,099
    edited May 10
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    Yes. you should replace that with a Carlin Pro 70200

    And this repair does not need a combustion analysis. There is no combustion issues with replacing a electrical control.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    SuperTechbburd
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 8,099
    edited May 10
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    when you get your new electronic control, wire it this way. Note that the Limit and the L1 on the new primary control must be powered at the same time in order to operate the new control. see the red and the black wires are both under the same wire nut with the wire that come from the B1 on the Hydrosmart.

    I returned two defective controls t(that were not defective) o the supply house before someone told me that trick. It makes all the sense in the world once you understand the purpose of each wire, but for a first time user with over 20 years experience in the trade, you would think I could read the instructions one time! Then I needed to explain it to my employees when it came time for them to use that control to upgrade a old oil burner with a "Three Wire" control to the new electronic ones.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    SuperTech
  • MaxMercy
    MaxMercy Member Posts: 514
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    Damn it Ed! You're too old to be that tech savy! I'm still learning how to reliably operate the crayon sharpener in my 64 big box of Crayolas.

    EdTheHeaterManCLambLRCCBJ
  • aaajaws3
    aaajaws3 Member Posts: 10
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    Ed you are one step ahead of me…..not your first rodeo.

    Just for fun called a local supply house for a replacement cost of a Primary like my honeywell $195 ….

    ordering the Carlin Pro 70200 today and I will keep you posted . Cant thank you enough sir. There are a few cold ones and some fresh home baked goods if your ever in The Great North Woods of NH.

    Regards

    Ken

  • HomerJSmith
    HomerJSmith Member Posts: 2,468
    edited May 11
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    @STEAM DOCTOR—" Do you have any electrical experience?" I was struck by lightening once, does that count? Sorry, I couldn't help myself. Good thing Erin isn't charging a $1 a comment, I would've thought twice about it.

    STEAM DOCTOREdTheHeaterMan
  • Big Ed_4
    Big Ed_4 Member Posts: 2,806
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    To Check the primary control , check for voltage on the orange wire after reset . No voltage bad control ….

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 8,099
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    unless there is a low resistance connection across F F


    but we already covered that

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 8,099
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    Trying to stay a step ahead, you will need to read the instructions when you get the Carlin Control. in the event you have any doubt on how to program the control in the set up mode, here are my recommendations in the red boxes

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • aaajaws3
    aaajaws3 Member Posts: 10
    edited May 16
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    Ed the Controller finally came in

    1. So I wire it up as you have illustrated above.
    2. Turn on power for initial startup.
    3. Set the modes as you have suggested.
    4. Shut power down and then add a jumper between T1-T2 ( after set up completed)
    5. Apply power and it should be fully functional and run. ( I should not have to do anything else except raise T-stats to initiate a call for heat )

    Did I miss anything ?

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 8,099
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    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • aaajaws3
    aaajaws3 Member Posts: 10
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    Well Ed the Heater Man is KING !!! Its installed and working like a champ. I honestly can't thank you enough for your detailed procedures , help and advice. I hope some day we meet up, until then I will try to pay it forward to someone else as you not only saved me a bunch of $$$ but enjoyed learning and fixing it myself.

    CLambHVACNUT
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 8,099
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    If you are up for some additional features, you can make your burner a little more efficient by adding a solenoid valve to the high pressure line between the fuel pump and teh nozzle assembly, then wire that in for pre-purge and post-purge operation. That would get wired to the Purple Valve terminal.

    To get more diagnostic features out of that new control, to add a wire from. L1 on the Aquasmart to the L1 on the 70200. This way the control can have power for Post-purge operations and looking at the diagnostic without the need to have a call for heat

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • HomerJSmith
    HomerJSmith Member Posts: 2,468
    edited May 17
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    Ed Young you are my hero. I would be glad to buy you two beers, maybe more to engage you in conversation.

    Never underestimate your impact on others by your helpful comment given as an act of charity. I feel the same for all the commentators on this site.

    Damn, Dan do you realize what you started? Answer in the comment below!

    Erin Holohan Haskell
  • HomerJSmith
    HomerJSmith Member Posts: 2,468
    edited May 17
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    Helpful answers to those in need, who have problems with no answers. If that doesn't get you into Heaven, I don't know what will.