New York gas piping
Comments
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Sounds like a "Supply House Rumor"
See the attached. Specifically, mentions sealant.
Not to be used on propane though.
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whoever told you that must be a Real Professional Dope! you might even say that he is a Pro- Dope.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Lubricant and sealant. Those two words have been tossed around a lot over the years ever since somebody decided to sell the word "lubricant" in the description on the back of the can. The lubricant word was not there when I first started. I think it's just a sales pitch to offer PIPE DOPE as something more. That's all.
So, to describe it generically," pipe dope" is a sealant used to take up the imperfections on threads helping to seal joints as they are made. Does it help to screw a joint more easily. It sure does, so born was the word lubricant.
I like @EdTheHeaterMan is saying above as well as what @EBEBRATT-Ed offered
It's not supposed to be thought of as a lubricant. And, its not a lubricant.
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Allegedly they used to put together NPT joints with nothing more than oil. Sprinkler systems is coming to mind.Intplm. said:Lubricant and sealant. Those two words have been tossed around a lot over the years ever since somebody decided to sell the word "lubricant" in the description on the back of the can. The lubricant word was not there when I first started. I think it's just a sales pitch to offer PIPE DOPE as something more. That's all.
So, to describe it generically," pipe dope" is a sealant used to take up the imperfections on threads helping to seal joints as they are made. Does it help to screw a joint more easily. It sure does, so born was the word lubricant.
I like @EdTheHeaterMan is saying above as well as what @EBEBRATT-Ed offered
It's not supposed to be thought of as a lubricant. And, its not a lubricant.
Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment0 -
Yes. A very good point. But it wasn't a very good sealant to take up the imperfections of the metal threads.
This is one of the reasons that pipe dope was invented.
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My grandfather taught me, he learned in WWII on Liberty ships and more after the war working for the gas company. My first joints were put together with a graphite oil mixture that he made himself.Intplm. said:Lubricant and sealant. Those two words have been tossed around a lot over the years ever since somebody decided to sell the word "lubricant" in the description on the back of the can. The lubricant word was not there when I first started. I think it's just a sales pitch to offer PIPE DOPE as something more. That's all.
So, to describe it generically," pipe dope" is a sealant used to take up the imperfections on threads helping to seal joints as they are made. Does it help to screw a joint more easily. It sure does, so born was the word lubricant.
I like @EdTheHeaterMan is saying above as well as what @EBEBRATT-Ed offered
It's not supposed to be thought of as a lubricant. And, its not a lubricant.
It was a lubricant first, and unless you are well over 100 years old, lubricant predates your existence.
The sealant statements came later, but as long as the threads are proper you should only need a lubricant to get proper torque and have the threads seal, I know, I've done it more than a few times.
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Well, fourty plus years ago when I started I was told the things I am hearing from you. I think it's great that you know the things you are mentioning above. Not to many do.
Im not saying that oil, oil applied with hemp, wax with string, wax, even cutting oil mixed or not mixed with who knows what? etc. etc. was or wasn't used as a thread sealant to take up the microscopic imperfections on threads. They were not considered better then pipe dope.
Notice I called it pipe dope. Still do. That's all it was called when I first started. Or at least that's what I was made to use and call it. It was never refereed to as a lubricant from all of those old dudes that taught me. Just my humble experience. I was actually scolded to have called it that. Maybe because the old guys new that pipe dope and lubricants should be two separate things.
Hey call it what you want but when somebody starts talking about pro dope not being allowed it brings my past thoughts to mind.
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Never Seize!KC_Jones said:Lubricant and sealant. Those two words have been tossed around a lot over the years ever since somebody decided to sell the word "lubricant" in the description on the back of the can. The lubricant word was not there when I first started. I think it's just a sales pitch to offer PIPE DOPE as something more. That's all. So, to describe it generically," pipe dope" is a sealant used to take up the imperfections on threads helping to seal joints as they are made. Does it help to screw a joint more easily. It sure does, so born was the word lubricant. I like @EdTheHeaterMan is saying above as well as what @EBEBRATT-Ed offered It's not supposed to be thought of as a lubricant. And, its not a lubricant.
My grandfather taught me, he learned in WWII on Liberty ships and more after the war working for the gas company. My first joints were put together with a graphite oil mixture that he made himself.1 -
I just call it dope.Intplm. said:Well, fourty plus years ago when I started I was told the things I am hearing from you. I think it's great that you know the things you are mentioning above. Not to many do.
Im not saying that oil, oil applied with hemp, wax with string, wax, even cutting oil mixed or not mixed with who knows what? etc. etc. was or wasn't used as a thread sealant to take up the microscopic imperfections on threads. They were not considered better then pipe dope.
Notice I called it pipe dope. Still do. That's all it was called when I first started. Or at least that's what I was made to use and call it. It was never refereed to as a lubricant from all of those old dudes that taught me. Just my humble experience. I was actually scolded to have called it that. Maybe because the old guys new that pipe dope and lubricants should be two separate things.
Hey call it what you want but when somebody starts talking about pro dope not being allowed it brings my past thoughts to mind.
Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment1 -
Never Seize. The most excellent for threads especially when future removal is expected.
I was taught in plumbing that that pipe dope stops leaks on threads better then so many of the other before mentioned stuff.
Most of the other things that have gone by the way side are plumbers putty used before wax rings, corn cobbs ,hay, grass news paper etc used for insulation, the list goes on.
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Sometimes words are important, so when I see a quote about pro-dope is no longer allowed? Well then, to say what @EdTheHeaterMan says, "That's a Real Professional Dope".
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It never was meant to be a sealant it was always just to be a lubricant. Proper threading of piping and fittings shoud be sufficent to seal from leaking.
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Pro dope is now a generic term here in NYC, so without being very specific to HERCULES PRO DOPE GRAY, it could be anything.
When most people order, they ask for the "blue pro dope" "pro dope with teflon, the white one"
Not even pipe dope, they say pro dope.
That rumor is not true, at least here. It's basically the standard.
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Tim McElwain said:
It never was meant to be a sealant it was always just to be a lubricant. Proper thearding of piping and fittings shoud be sufficent to seal from leaking.
A lifetime ago!
I was taught only 2 threads exposed kid, keep tightening.
Today’s Chinese Crap don’t even get me started!
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not this again....2
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Yes this again.
Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment2 -
Was really a code question. @JohnNY, @Mad Dog_2 @anyone in the know. Did NY change their codes? Thanks.1
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I know it's the standard. Just rumors is, that codes were recently changed. Just trying to determine accuracy of the rumors.dko said:Pro dope is now a generic term here in NYC, so without being very specific to HERCULES PRO DOPE GRAY, it could be anything. When most people order, they ask for the "blue pro dope" "pro dope with teflon, the white one" Not even pipe dope, they say pro dope. That rumor is not true, at least here. It's basically the standard.0 -
This is why I dislike pipe dope questions. They are DOPY. You use what works for you. Some use tape some use tape then dope, some use tape then dope then tape. YADA YADA YADA. Who cares.
I was told long ago and the old books did say that you only need a lubricant, and the pipe joint should seal with just that.
Maybe in the old days. Put the pipe and fitting now are not the quality they used to be in my opinion.
Use what works for you that doesn't contaminate the system and is compatible with what the pipe is carrying. Thats all that matters.
90% of the rumors you here at the supply house are untrue.
I don't know how many time people have told me you can't use regular Teflon tape on gas. You have to use the yellow Teflon tape made for gas.
No true (at least where I am)
Thats how rumors start.
People think "well, they make yellow tape for gas so that means white must be illegal"0 -
Would think a code change like that would be very loud. Would be receiving e-mails left and right from all the NYC plumbing organizations. At best someone brought it up in a meeting and was a memorable/laughable talking point.
If anyone is on top of something like this, it would be the territory rep Dellon Sales. Call (516) 625-2626 and ask for Oatey or e-mail oatey@dellonsales.com
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I don't know about this, but I will check on it. One of the questions on almost every plumbing exam I've ever taken, has a question in Pipe dope. The correct answer is that it is "A LUBRICANT." not a sealant. When I was young and green, a few of the older Jewish plumbers I worked under called all dope, "Schmaltz." Put the Schmaltz on kid!. Schmaltz is Yiddish is
"Fat." Yukkkkkk...Greasy Chicken Fat....ewwww. Mad Dog
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according to the internet:Pipe dope is any thread lubricant, thread sealing compound, or anaerobic chemical sealant that is used to make a pipe thread joint leakproof and pressure tight.[1] It is also referred to as "thread compound" or "pipe thread sealant."[2] Although common pipe threads are tapered and therefore will achieve an interference fit during proper assembly, machining and finishing variances usually result in a fit that does not result in 100 percent contact between the mating components. The application of pipe dope prior to assembly will fill the minute voids between the threads, thus making the joint pressure tight. Pipe dope also acts as a lubricant and helps prevent seizing of the mating parts, which can later cause difficulty during disassembly.And everyone knows that the internet is always right!
References:
"Plant Engineering | Guidelines For Choosing A Pipe Thread Sealant". Plant Engineering. 1998-03-01. Retrieved 2021-05-20.
"How to Use Pipe Thread Sealant: An Essential Guide". QRFS - Thoughts on Fire Blog. 15 September 2020. Retrieved 2021-05-20.
But this is an important topic that remains at the top of my list of stuff that really matters, I will never stop thinking of how important the definition of Pipe Dope is to the pipe fitters of the world. Without this lively discussion about the fact that it is a lubricant or a sealant, there would be no reason to wage war against other countries. Religions could all agree on the afterlife, and the question about the Left Twixt or Right Twixt can never be resolved.Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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I was taught that the original "pipe dope" was a mixture of linseed oil and lead oxide powder. When the danger of lead in plumbing started to be recognized they had to change the formula. Wikipedia sort of backs that up.0
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DC you are correct about the ingredients and the lead. When I got in the trade in the 70s, There was a dope called red lead. A pint weighed 20 pounds. I have always been a TU555 pipe dope fan. A few laps of teflon, dope on the first 2 threads and no leaks. Its been a while since I purchased pipe dope.. is TU555 still around?0
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He just wants to know if NY code no longer allows a specific dope............
Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
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For what it's worth, the rumor is, that it's in New York state thing, not a New York City thing.2
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Depends on where you are. In Baltimore, tape of any kind is prohibited on gas piping. There have been inspectors who see taped gas joints that have been there for years, and they won't approve the job unless all the tape is removed.EBEBRATT-Ed said:.........I don't know how many time people have told me you can't use regular Teflon tape on gas. You have to use the yellow Teflon tape made for gas.
No true (at least where I am)
Thats how rumors start.
People think "well, they make yellow tape for gas so that means white must be illegal"All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
That's what my grandfather used, linseed oil and red lead. There were traces of it on some of his tools before I started using them.DCContrarian said:I was taught that the original "pipe dope" was a mixture of linseed oil and lead oxide powder.
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This is just about the most ridiculous discussion I have ever been a part of. And this is not the first time that this topic has been brought up.
Can we all just get serious and change the subject to something more important?
You all know the one I’m talking about…
The one that says that a circulator is not a pump.
Only to be eclipsed by the Nest Thermostat C wire.
By the way, I was able to get a great Photo of the Turtle Eclipse on Monday.
Click the Spoiler
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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EdTheHeaterMan said:
This is just about the most ridiculous discussion I have ever been a part of. And this is not the first time that this topic has been brought up.
Can we all just get serious and change the subject to something more important?
You all know the one I’m talking about…
The one that says that a circulator is not a pump.
Only to be eclipsed by the Nest Thermostat C wire.
By the way, I was able to gat a great Photo of the Turtle Eclipse on Monday.
Click the Spoiler
YES, Yes yes1 -
Bump1
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I actually only just noticed the addition of "tape form" allowed as a thread joint compound in the NYC fuel gas code in the 2022 revision.
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Are you saying something that's NYC code compliant is unsafe?Mad Dog_2 said:I ain't using Teflon Tape on Gas. Mad Dog
Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment0 -
Yes. Every code is a MINIMUM standard Chris. Teflon tape on Gas does not meet MY standard. Not in my house or any building that I work in, where I am specing or designing. I would say the same for Gas Megapress. It's a race to the bottom. Mad Dog
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My own experience with this is as follows:
Years ago, what was basically available to us was only Hercules white Teflon paste, gray Pipe Dope, and wick. We used gray pipe dope on nearly everything but if liquid were running through the pipe then we'd use wick first and brush dope or teflon over it.
The theory was always that if water reached the wick, it would expand and seal the threads, so it was a water application. Never on gas.
Years later, Teflon tape became very popular and it could be used on nearly every non-industrial-level application for gas, water, or anything else for that matter.
When I took my Master Plumber's exam we weren't allowed to use anything at all on the threads when making them up. I believe it was about 30 joints. The exam had us assembling the black pipe joints and fittings, filling the assembly with 100 PSI of air and submerging it in a big tub of water to see if it leaked (instant failure). We were told repeatedly by our course instructors when taking the exam prep class that all of the above products (teflon paste, tape, pipe dope) are nothing but lubricants that help you make the joint tighter. Only the black and terrible product Permatex was a sealant, which was obvious because it would dry and cure and be a nightmare to get apart later on.
So, I've gone my whole professional career not making a big deal about how to dress threads since it's absolutely the threads themselves that hold back the contents of the pipe.
I've read this thread and asked several Master Plumbers in my association about the claims presented and no one has heard anything about it.
Codes change suddenly and without much notification but my belief as of this moment is that pipe dope is still absolutely allowed on gas pipe in NYC.
Contact John "JohnNY" Cataneo, NYC Master Plumber, Lic 1784
Consulting & Troubleshooting
Heating in NYC or NJ.
Classes
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So
I kind of feel like everything has been a lie now.
I made up this test using tap magic oil and very little per joint just because it was a decent oil I had handy. The tee is from a previous test I did with something so there's some tape and dope on those connections but the rest of the 3/4 are all new and were dry besides a drop of oil each.
No leaks…………..
I don't know what to say.
Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment0 -
Just say good job.
I agree as others have mentioned that all you need is a lubricant and not a sealant. But this is the real world with China fittings and even the quality of the USA stuff probably isn't what it used to be. Dope makes good insurance.
And what about the jobs we have all done and had an occasional leak even when using dope and piping everything correctly with good workmanship? I never had a lot of leaks but occasionally I would have one and it was usually for no good reason
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My thoughts were how often have you had a leak where dope fixed it?
I know I've had leaks where it didn't matter what dope you used, it leaked.
I'm planning on increasing my test to 120+- psi when I switch gauges.
Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment1 -
Smaller pipe less likely to leak. Large pipe has more circumference to leak at each joint. When I do low pressure gas it just gets dope up to 1" anything larger gets dope and tape.
I also dope the inside of the fittings sparingly on 1 1/4 and up. Rectorseal True Blue recommends tis on 1 1/4 and up.
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Oooh Ed ..you violated the Plumbing code: "Thou shall dope ONLY male threads!" I do it all the time...I also rip off the mattress tags, and Jay walk...Ha ha..You do what you know works..Mad Dog
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