Boiler Paul system

Snowmelt

I think I encountered a Paul system.
I’m going to swap the boiler with an 80 series W/M
Nothing is working right now
I took an EDR and came up with 1940 on rads
I also had 100 feet of 4-1/2 finned baseboard
Right now it has peerless 10 section ( don’t now model it’s just big)
Any pointers and what size boiler from the EDR and baseboard
Here are some pics……..

mattmia2

Is that a zone valve above the boiler? If it is a Paul system and no longer has the Paul vacuum vents and vacuum system you will have to be very careful because the piping was smaller because the vacuum helped the steam move through the system.

It could be very worth it to bring in one of the steam experts as a consultant to reduce what you have to re-do.

Lance

Looks like a standard one pipe system. I would verify sizing, setup a control that makes the boiler work right and decide if zoning is required, or if so, how and at what pressure should the design call for. Old vents I would changeout, did not see any traps. Make sure dry steam, make sure slope of pipe is proper. Curious on the main valve. Could there have been two boilers here in the past?

Pumpguy

I can't comment on any of your questions. For me, the only clue that it is, or was, a Paul Air Line system is the one pic showing the 1/4" open pipe sticking out of the floor next to the rad valve.

The following anecdote may be of interest.

Several years ago I was called by a contractor in the Milwaukee area. They were involved in a boiler replacement in a large home their client was renovating.

A previous contractor had ripped out the old boiler and all of the ancillaries and when all of the new stuff was installed, they couldn't get the system to heat properly.

Fortunately, the guys that called me were called in and they saw the air lines off the radiators and recognized it was a Paul system. Unfortunately the original vacuum producer was long gone and no one could tell me what type was used. Luckily the vacuum air lines and radiator Paul valves were still there.

I was able to set them up with a liquid ring vacuum pump which worked properly and restored everything to original Paul system design. I have not had a call back or heard anything about this system since, so I have to assume everything is still working as it should.

Hopefully, @Snowmelt, you won't have the problems this first contractor had, but if you're wanting or needing to restore the vacuum on this system, give me a call. I'll do all I can to help.

mattmia2

Where does this go? Is it a zone valve or is there a damper and ductwork up in there somewhere?

Snowmelt

To answer everyone’s question that is a zone valve, hopefully it’s only 24 volts ….. that duct work in back is part of the flu which is getting changed out by a chimney guy.
Know where it goes well I don’t really know it was a big ugly maze ……..
All I know is 2 zone valves a three thermostat.
Let me ask a question I think I remember from dans webinar, I could add main vents on secound and third floor to get the air out quicker.

jumper

@Pumpguy >> set them up with a liquid ring vacuum pump<<

Do you ever consider a dry pump? Do you recirculate the water in wet pumps? If so, do you have to cool it?

Pumpguy

I've read about the dry pumps @Igor has used on his systems, but those I've read about are very low CFM and so only useful on the smallest systems. I've heard about other dry vacuum pumps used on condensate return system, but water carryover of anything more than mere vapor can cause damage.

The systems I get involved with start at 12-14 CFM and go up to 200 CFM or more.

It's best to recirculate the seal water since just once through to drain is wasteful and frequently clog up pump passages due to hard water minerals coming out of solution.

Intplm.

@Snowmelt

Is that a six inch header? I hope you don't have to get too deep into that.

Snowmelt

Intpim, yep then it goes to 12 inch then branches out of there, it’s crazy………. I’m hoping to use the 6 inch that’s there and somewhere, anywhere take a 6 inch elbow off and put a 6 to 4 inch reducing elbow

Intplm.

A good idea... 6 x 4 x 6. ? 6 x 4 ?
A threaded fitting will need unions or flanges. Or you might use a welded fitting?

jumper

Pumpguy said:

I've read about the dry pumps @Igor has used on his systems, but those I've read about are very low CFM and so only useful on the smallest systems. I've heard about other dry vacuum pumps used on condensate return system, but water carryover of anything more than mere vapor can cause damage.

The systems I get involved with start at 12-14 CFM and go up to 200 CFM or more.

It's best to recirculate the seal water since just once through to drain is wasteful and frequently clog up pump passages due to hard water minerals coming out of solution.

I presume you have to cool that seal water? To what temperature and how?

Pumpguy

jumper said:

Pumpguy said:

I've read about the dry pumps @Igor has used on his systems, but those I've read about are very low CFM and so only useful on the smallest systems. I've heard about other dry vacuum pumps used on condensate return system, but water carryover of anything more than mere vapor can cause damage.

The systems I get involved with start at 12-14 CFM and go up to 200 CFM or more.

It's best to recirculate the seal water since just once through to drain is wasteful and frequently clog up pump passages due to hard water minerals coming out of solution.

I presume you have to cool that seal water? To what temperature and how?

Not usually. Depends on condensate temperature and desired level of operating vacuum. Usually the condensate is cool enough for the typical 5.5" Hg. average return line vacuum. Today's vacuum condensate return pump packages can be fitted with a high temperature limit switch.

In the example above, we recirculated the seal water from the boiler feed tank.

Most common causes of high temperature condensate are bad traps leaking steam into the return lines and operating with too much steam pressure.

The attached file goes into detail.