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Auto-Fill Flooded Suction?

RickDelta
RickDelta Member Posts: 351
edited March 30 in THE MAIN WALL
Hello HeatingHelp.com community!

Was pondering if this would work:

We picked up this brand new $1,300.00 pump for $25.00 (damaged) at an auction.
The rear aluminum bearing end cap was damaged, I repaired it now good as new!

Its a typical centrifugal (NON-Self Priming) 7.5 HP water pump. It requires a flooded "IN" pipe water supply/pressure to pump water.

I wish to place this pump at a higher level (12ft) higher than its water supply below it.


Install a check "foot" valve on the IN pipe thats residing in the water supply.
Pipe up 12ft to pump IN port.
Connect a vertical 12ft discharge pipe to pump.
Sweep top of discharge pipe with a 90 elbow and gravity slope the water away.

Install an "auto-fill" valve at the discharge port on the pump case.
Set the auto-fill pressure to "4.5" fill pressure. (this represents the weight of the static vertical water pressure in the discharge pipe. (this would always keep the pump "flooded" between run times.

......... An elevated centrifugal pump made to self-prime??






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Comments

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 9,632
    why? the foot valve keeps water in the suction pipe once you prime it.
  • RickDelta
    RickDelta Member Posts: 351
    edited March 29
    mattmia2 said:

    why? the foot valve keeps water in the suction pipe once you prime it.

    ..... should it ingest a gulp of air for any reason?
    .... or slow leak in the foot valve?
    ..... auto-re-priming after servicing?
  • Mustangman
    Mustangman Member Posts: 86
    I guess I am not sure what the end game is with installing a circulator and a fill valve on a second floor. One of your big hurdles will be setting a fill valve to maintain 41/2 LB. Would it come on at 2psi and off at 41/2? Fill valves have a lot of slop in the settings. The only way to have constant 4.5 lb is with a freak drive. Again, not sure what you want to accomplish. I need more information. Typically we allow for static weight in the basement on the fill valve. .433 lb per foot of rise.
    Good luck
  • RickDelta
    RickDelta Member Posts: 351
    edited March 29
    "@Mustangman"

    "...... installing a circulator"

    Basement de-watering pump!

    ".... fill valve on a second floor"

    That's where the start of the discharge pipe is.
    Static at 4.5 psi .... Pumping at 50 psi inside of pipe

    (Pump will be located this high because the basement can flood to 12 ft deep)

    ..... if a standard fill valve proves to sloppy, I'll use a pressure sensor controlling a solenoid valve to restore prime level in pipe.
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 9,632
    If the foot valve is leaking you will be filling whatever you're pumping from from the municipal water supply
  • RickDelta
    RickDelta Member Posts: 351
    edited March 29
    mattmia2 said:

    If the foot valve is leaking you will be filling whatever you're pumping from from the municipal water supply

    Yes! ..... if I use a pressure sensor and solenoid valve, I can have the PLC alert to a dropping prime pressure within the pipe (leaking foot valve).
  • leonz
    leonz Member Posts: 1,126
    Please look at these float controlled AMT sump pumps;, combined four of the 3 inch one horsepower models will drain 680 gallons per minute with a thirty five foot head pressure.
    Matt_67
  • RickDelta
    RickDelta Member Posts: 351
    leonz said:

    Please look at these float controlled AMT sump pumps;, combined four of the 3 inch one horsepower models will drain 680 gallons per minute with a thirty five foot head pressure.

    Hi Leonz! : )

    ...... all in just the original sump or flooded bottom tier?
  • Intplm.
    Intplm. Member Posts: 1,945
    Flooded suction. That means that the pump would be below the water line from which it is drawing water.This way the pump would stay primed.
    If I understand you correctly, you are planning to have water piped to circulate from the suction to the discharge maintaining the pumps prime?
    That can work if you have a proper water supply and properly installed check valves on the suction and discharge.
    Im I following your thoughts? Or am I in error?
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,121
    A foot valve or swing check should be adequate. Here is an example of an AMT installation manual. Download the one for the pump you have.
    the installation manual.

    https://d1pkofokfruj4.cloudfront.net/media/upload/resource/e/AMT-Pumps-Electric-Motor-Driven-Pump-Manual.pdf
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    Intplm.
  • leonz
    leonz Member Posts: 1,126
    edited March 29
    Hello Rick,

    I see no reason why you could not use them in both places with four 3 inch roll flat discharge hoses with cam lock fittings connected to the existing 4 inch pipe using two 3 inch risers with four to three inch reducing fittings and cam lock fittings and you could just lay the discharge hose on the floor to the 3 inch risers connected to the 4 inch pipe.

    The float switches mounted on the sump pumps will work in any case.

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,276
    Please tell me that the auto-fill valve is NOT connected in any way to a municipal supply. Please. Such an installation as I think you are suggesting must have, at the very least, a reduced pressure zone backflow prevention valve, and frankly if I came across what I think I am hearing if it didn't have an air gap I would red flag the building and shut off and disconnect your municipal supply to the building until it was corrected.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • RickDelta
    RickDelta Member Posts: 351
    "@JamieHall"

    " .....a reduced pressure zone backflow prevention valve."

    Yes! ...... our commercial back-flow preventer was installed about 15 years ago and is tested regularly and certified.
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,276
    It must be on the line to your autofill valve, and that line must NOT serve any potential domestic use. I suspect the one you have is on the main inlet?
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,121
    The BFD on you main building water supply protects the city and other users that are connected. The city doesn't want your water back :) EVER!

    The BFD on the fill system, or other connections that you have protects all the other connections inside YOUR building.

    The type of BFD you use depends on the hazard level of the system you are protecting.

    Vented dual checks are common on boiler fill that have water or PG. Most inspectors agree.

    If you had EG glycol you might consider a higher class BFD, certainly a testable type.

    In some areas inspectors require a higher protection on all boilers a RPZ, dual check testable type. Also an annual inspection.

    In Wisconsin if a test report is not submitted to the cities, or water provider, yearly, they can turn off your water.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,276
    One of the more common problems I found on plumbing -- back in the day! -- was failure to place required backflow prevention or air gaps on certain fixtures or uses within a building. Used to get a fair amount of backchat on that...
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • RickDelta
    RickDelta Member Posts: 351
    It must be on the line to your autofill valve, and that line must NOT serve any potential domestic use. I suspect the one you have is on the main inlet?
    ....... the entire building!
  • RickDelta
    RickDelta Member Posts: 351
    ...... the spring water (we pump out of our basement 24/7) is probably better than what the city provides!    :  )
    (the state lab test it during the municipal detention ponds were installed)

    ...... but I agree,  any interface to potable water must have a back flow preventer ...... even within our building.

  • RickDelta
    RickDelta Member Posts: 351
    Thinking:

    ..... a simple "spring check" after the auto-fill valve to safeguard any backflow locally?
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,276
    RickDelta said:

    Thinking:

    ..... a simple "spring check" after the auto-fill valve to safeguard any backflow locally?

    No, Not acceptable. Reduced pressure zone backflow preventor or air gap.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    Intplm.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,121
    edited March 30
    Fill valve combination units are available with the widely accepted vented dual check BFD, or with the RPZ type.

    Quite a price difference and the RPZ will require yearly inspection by a licensed backflow inspector, could be 150 bucks a year for that test and certification. more $$if it fails.

    The Caleffi 573 AutoFill also has a check at the discharge. Same check that you find in the BFDs. So with a combo unit you have 3 check valves in a row!

    In many areas the check in the fill valve is sufficient backflow protection.
    It's really up to the local AHJ.

    The vent to atmosphere type BFDs let you know when there is a failure.

    In your case which I suspect is not permitted or inspected? How much protection do you want.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • RickDelta
    RickDelta Member Posts: 351
    hot_rod said:

    Fill valve combination units are available with the widely accepted vented dual check BFD, or with the RPZ type.

    Quite a price difference and the RPZ will require yearly inspection by a licensed backflow inspector, could be 150 bucks a year for that test and certification. more $$if it fails.

    The Caleffi 573 AutoFill also has a check at the discharge. Same check that you find in the BFDs. So with a combo unit you have 3 check valves in a row!

    In many areas the check in the fill valve is sufficient backflow protection.
    It's really up to the local AHJ.

    The vent to atmosphere type BFDs let you know when there is a failure.

    In your case which I suspect is not permitted or inspected? How much protection do you want.

    "@hotrod"

    ......... Brutal Juice! : )

    That 573 works for me!
  • leonz
    leonz Member Posts: 1,126
    edited March 31
    Rick is there any way you can consider a different brand of pump that can be left unattended in your sump pit that can handle flows greater than what you have dealt with???????

    TSURUMI pumps USA Glendale Heights, OHIO 1-888-878-7864

    If you contact the Tsurumi pump people in Ohio they can help you obtain the correct pump or pumps from W.W. GRAINGER and the wiring to go along with it. The KTZE pumps can be plugged in to a 480 volt receptacle and left alone to run by themselves.

    The TSURUMI pump people have many 4 inch DIRECT DISCHARGE sump pumps that can be used for this.
    The 4" three phase KTZE models operate without an external float switch and can operate pushing up to 60 feet of head pushing almost 385 gallons per minute in 4 inch flat discharge hose to the 4 inch pipe you have already and they do not have to go in the existing sump if you do not want to keep a pump in there.

    These dewatering pumps and the four inch hose and fittings can be ordered directly from W.W. Grainger.

  • RickDelta
    RickDelta Member Posts: 351
    leonz said:

    Rick is there any way you can consider a different brand of pump that can be left unattended in your sump pit that can handle flows greater than what you have dealt with???????

    TSURUMI pumps USA Glendale Heights, OHIO 1-888-878-7864

    If you contact the Tsurumi pump people in Ohio they can help you obtain the correct pump or pumps from W.W. GRAINGER and the wiring to go along with it. The KTZE pumps can be plugged in to a 480 volt receptacle and left alone to run by themselves.

    The TSURUMI pump people have many 4 inch DIRECT DISCHARGE sump pumps that can be used for this.
    The 4" three phase KTZE models operate without an external float switch and can operate pushing up to 60 feet of head pushing almost 385 gallons per minute in 4 inch flat discharge hose to the 4 inch pipe you have already and they do not have to go in the existing sump if you do not want to keep a pump in there.

    These dewatering pumps and the four inch hose and fittings can be ordered directly from W.W. Grainger.

    As I asked you before, is your solution for the small sump basin only .....
    or to flood the basement?

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,121
    Do you have enough water to keep a pump like that happy? You sure don't want to run it dry or have it short cycle with a float switch.
    Is it a 3 phase motor?
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • leonz
    leonz Member Posts: 1,126
    You could leave them both in the sump and pump out 770 gallons per minute, 46,200 gallons per hour, over 1,000,000 gallons per day as needed as the pumps will start and stop with the water level due to the internal water level sensor in the pump case.

    Or leave one sump pump on the floor and one in the sump and the floor sump pump will work until it no longer senses water while the pump in the sump will run until it senses there is no water and stop.


  • RickDelta
    RickDelta Member Posts: 351
    hot_rod said:

    Do you have enough water to keep a pump like that happy? You sure don't want to run it dry or have it short cycle with a float switch.
    Is it a 3 phase motor?

    Some times its only like a small garden hose coming, or like now, four 4" fire truck pumper hoses all at the same time.
    3-phase 240 vac
  • RickDelta
    RickDelta Member Posts: 351
    leonz said:

    You could leave them both in the sump and pump out 770 gallons per minute, 46,200 gallons per hour, over 1,000,000 gallons per day as needed as the pumps will start and stop with the water level due to the internal water level sensor in the pump case.

    Or leave one sump pump on the floor and one in the sump and the floor sump pump will work until it no longer senses water while the pump in the sump will run until it senses there is no water and stop.


    "........Or leave one sump pump on the floor "

    You can't have a submersible pump on the floor ....... it needs to be under water to cool itself!

    We have one doing that now ......over heats protector then takes an hour to cool down.
  • leonz
    leonz Member Posts: 1,126
    edited April 1
    These Tsurumi KTZE 3 phase 220 volt 4 inch discharge sump pumps run without oversight.
    You just plug them in and pump. They would only run when they sense the higher water level and stop when they no longer sensed water. There is no exposed float to worry about.
    The continuous running water level is 17 1/8" inches.
  • RickDelta
    RickDelta Member Posts: 351
    edited April 1
    leonz said:

    These Tsurumi sump pumps run without oversight.
    They would only run when they sensed the higher
    water level and stop when they no longer sensed
    water. There is no exposed float to worry about.

    Our original basin is not big enough to handle this extreme range of water ingress ....... that's why I'm flooding the basement.

    We literally have a mountain of dead submersibles that have quick cycled themselves to death in the small basin.
  • leonz
    leonz Member Posts: 1,126
    Rick, please talk to the Tsurumi Pump people in Ohio tomorrow they will help you with this.

    The KTZE sump pumps will stop when the water level drops below the sensor and water still covers the pump case.

    CLamb
  • RickDelta
    RickDelta Member Posts: 351
    hot_rod said:

    Fill valve combination units are available with the widely accepted vented dual check BFD, or with the RPZ type.

    Quite a price difference and the RPZ will require yearly inspection by a licensed backflow inspector, could be 150 bucks a year for that test and certification. more $$if it fails.

    The Caleffi 573 AutoFill also has a check at the discharge. Same check that you find in the BFDs. So with a combo unit you have 3 check valves in a row!

    In many areas the check in the fill valve is sufficient backflow protection.
    It's really up to the local AHJ.

    The vent to atmosphere type BFDs let you know when there is a failure.

    In your case which I suspect is not permitted or inspected? How much protection do you want.

    ....... Trying to order a 1/2" 573 combo with pressure gauge with NPT ends.
    The ordering info is difficult to be sure of what I want. : (
  • RickDelta
    RickDelta Member Posts: 351
    RickDelta said:

    hot_rod said:

    Fill valve combination units are available with the widely accepted vented dual check BFD, or with the RPZ type.

    Quite a price difference and the RPZ will require yearly inspection by a licensed backflow inspector, could be 150 bucks a year for that test and certification. more $$if it fails.

    The Caleffi 573 AutoFill also has a check at the discharge. Same check that you find in the BFDs. So with a combo unit you have 3 check valves in a row!

    In many areas the check in the fill valve is sufficient backflow protection.
    It's really up to the local AHJ.

    The vent to atmosphere type BFDs let you know when there is a failure.

    In your case which I suspect is not permitted or inspected? How much protection do you want.

    ....... Trying to order a 1/2" 573 combo with pressure gauge with NPT ends.
    The ordering info is difficult to be sure of what I want. : (
    Supply House got me the right ordering numbers!

    Thanks!
  • leonz
    leonz Member Posts: 1,126
    edited April 1
    .......Or leave one sump pump on the floor "

    You can't have a submersible pump on the floor ....... it needs to be under water to cool itself!

    We have one doing that now ......overheats protector then takes an hour to cool down.


    ==============================================================
    Yes, you can have submersible on the floor of the sump.

    The 4 inch discharge pumps would run until they sense no water so it will always have 13-17 inches of water around it below the sensor.

    These Tsurumi pump models are designed to run like this and they are still surrounded with water.

    You could use these pumps and wait for dry weather, fill the sump with concrete then digging a pit and installing/stacking several precast cesspools on a base on top of each other and wrapping them with landscape fabric and connecting the cesspools to the drainage pipes already there by connecting pipes through the precast cesspool wall your going to be fighting a losing battle Rick.

    The stacked precast cesspools become your exterior wet well and the pumps will be on the concrete base and the landscape fabric will prevent dirt from entering it.

    You would want to have the 2 discharge pipes near the top of the cesspool so you can disconnect the roll flat hose(s) to allow you to pull a pump out and repair it as needed as the pump bases are serviceable/rebuildable by the end user.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,121
    Maybe look into a variable speed drive if you have a wide range of water ingress flows. Cycling any pump really shortens the life.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • RickDelta
    RickDelta Member Posts: 351
    hot_rod said:

    Maybe look into a variable speed drive if you have a wide range of water ingress flows. Cycling any pump really shortens the life.

    Expensive option, and still would have to enlarge the sump basin.

    .... so, simply flood the bottom tier (costs nothing!) and use simple Bang/Bang control.

  • RickDelta
    RickDelta Member Posts: 351
    edited April 2
    Auto-Fill Flooded Suction ....... closing thoughts

    The set-up I have is four self-priming pumps under PLC rotation (one lead and three assist on demand) control.
    ...... added a standard NON-self priming pump with a suction auto-fill valve (to emulate a self-priming pump).

    I noticed this standard centrifugal pump had twice the GPM capability as the same HP self-priming pumps! (400 GPM at 50 TDH)

    I'm assuming this is the penalty paid to have the pumps design to self-prime ...... Is that true?


    I'm thinking, well, don't use self-priming pumps , but modify a standard centrifugal pump and add an auto-fill and BFP to its suction line.

    .......... your thoughts?
  • leonz
    leonz Member Posts: 1,126
    Please call the Tsurumi pump folks, they can solve this for you.
    CLamb
  • RickDelta
    RickDelta Member Posts: 351
    leonz said:

    Please call the Tsurumi pump folks, they can solve this for you.

    ........ solve what?? : (
  • leonz
    leonz Member Posts: 1,126
    edited April 2
    You need the right pump, they can show you what 4" pump will work and work well.