Switching main vent from Gorton no.1 to no.2 (edited, updated new info) (edit with plan)

Tuggy

* see last post for my proposed plan: https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1797225/#Comment_1797225

I have a about a 45 ft main run from the header on my boiler to the front portion of the house that feeds three floors above it. The front room(s) of floors 2 and especially 3 run about 4° cooler than the back side of the house (which is nearly directly over the boiler). As you traverse to the back rooms of the house, the temp goes up.

At the end of the 45 ft main run and immediately at the drop off for the wet return is a Gorton no.1.

I'd like to swap that out for a Gorton no.2 in the hopes steam would get more quickly to the front most rooms and bring the front closer to parity with the back.

Is there any big issue with simply spinning off the no.1 that's there now, and spinning on a no.2? There is not much space above the main line as you can see from photo 4. It looks like less than 7 inches before hitting the 3 x 6 beam directly on top of it (photo 5, 6).

I'm not sure if a Gorton no.2 would even fit in that clearance. In that case, what would I do?

Since I removed the section of drop ceiling above main vent (photos 4-6), there is another 6 inches of space before hitting the sub-floor above, but currently the vent is, directly under the beam. The main itself is NOT directly under the supply pipe(s) above them; NOT in the same plane- so the 6 inches of extra space would be un-obstructed, UNTIL about 9 inches *back* (from the 3 x 6 beam), and then I'd hit that larger "perpendicular" feeder pipe. (which is the riser to floors 2 and 3. Floor 1 radiator supply for the front room is visible in the photo)

Perhaps I could use some kind of a 90° elbow bending back on top of the main, and another 90° turning back up? Something like that would clear the 3 x 6 beam and be under the "open space" of the sub-floor above, which has about another 6 inches of clearance itself (the height of the 3 x 6).

I'm guessing some might suggest something like a straight pipe ("half-tee") of several inch length off the first 90° bend, with a few taps for vents in it, but as a novice I assume that'd involve custom pipe cutting and tapping.

I'm really looking for the simplest solution possible, and asking if it's feasible and worth it to just do a swap, as it were. Maybe there isn't anything simple.

Photo 1: 10 feet beyond boiler
Photo 2: middle part of run (continues through wall on right)
Photo 3: End of main, with Gorton no. 1 at drop-off to wet return (drop ceiling in-tact)
(Main off header not pictured)
Photo 4 The open space above the vent (drop ceiling NOW removed)
Photo's 5,6 Clearance from the main to the 3 x 6 beam (drop ceiling NOW removed)

Thanks.

*Yes. The Gorton no.1 one in Photo 3 had been recently swapped out for the one seen in the (new) Photo's 4-6

Steamhead

Elbow it over into the joist space. Done and done.

Tuggy

@Steamhead Sorry I'm a novice at any sort of plumbing where "extending pipes", nipples, etc. needs be done. Sorry if I'm being pedantic, let me see if I understand the details correctly:

One (short) nipple up from the main to a 90° elbow, a second (short) nipple to a second 90° elbow to turn back up vertical, and then thread the no.2 directly into that second elbow?

Am I understanding this correctly? That's all?

Is this something that I can do with "off the shelf" standard parts form the plumbing supple store? I'm not even sure what specific types of parts (description/spec wise) I'd be asking for.

I assume everything is all 1/2 in NPT threaded? Like the vents themselves. ?

Blue tape/dop on connections. I guess searching some YT vids might guide me as well.

thanks a bunch

EBEBRATT-Ed

You can buy nipples from close (about 1" Long) up to 6" long in 1/2 in increments.

I would remove the vent and install a short nipple then a 45 degree elbow then a nipple long enough to get you away from the beam then another 45 elbow pointing up with the vent installed in it.

Tuggy

45° to avoid possibility of standing condensate?

Would these fittings work:
2 x https://www.supplyhouse.com/Merit-Brass-C3502-08-1-2-3000-A105N-Carbon-Steel-45-Elbow-NPT
1 x https://www.supplyhouse.com/Bluefin-SLN050-150-1-2-x-1-1-2-Stainless-Steel-Nipple
1 x https://www.supplyhouse.com/Bluefin-SLN050-250-1-2-x-2-1-2-Stainless-Steel-Nipple

Bcos17

The Gorton #1 you have there is 3/4" at the base. Start with this:

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Bluefin-BL45S075C-3-4-Black-45-Degree-Street-Elbow

then get a 3/4" black nipple of whatever length you need to clear the beam. Dont forget you are going to have to spin that big Gorton #2 on, which is very wide, so give yourself some space. Something like this:

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Bluefin-BLN075-400C-3-4-x-4-Black-Nipple

Then add another 45 to orient the pipe back vertical: https://www.supplyhouse.com/Bluefin-BL45E075C-3-4-Black-45-Degree-Elbow

Now you will need to reduce the pipe size to 1/2" because the Gorton #2 is 1/2". So use this:

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Bluefin-BLB075-050C-3-4-x-1-2-Black-Bushing

then the Gorton #2 screws into the top of that.

If you are running out of height with the ceiling above, you can use a street 90, then a nipple and another 90 and bushing to keep the relative height lower, but I would use 45s if possible. Don't forget to tape the threads and add dope. You ideally want to get the new main vent 7-9 inches up above the end of the steam main.

BobC

Gorton #1's have a 3/4 male thread while #2's have a 1/2" male thread so you will need a 3/4 to 1/2 adapter to compensate.

Bob

Tuggy

Thank you for alerting me to the 1/2 vs 3/4 difference! Idk why I was under the impression they were both 1/2 (Why does the smaller #1 have a *larger* orifice tho? I'd think opposite, if anything at all..) Always trying to learn here.

Also, why in the supplywarehouse desc for the #2 does it only say 1/2", and for the #1 it says 3/4" x 1/2" ? What part of the #1 dimension is the 1/2" referring to?

@Bcos17 thanks for the detailed part list! I will order exactly those. It seems with the two elbows and a 4 in. nipple the total should be close to 7 in. away from the main.

Are the "black" components different from the plain "steel" type ones I linked to in my previous post?

Question on vent choice now: Gorton #2 vs Big Mouth

Which is more reliable? Price is similar but the B&J has twice the venting capacity. I'm thinking "bigger is better" (..or maybe it'd create more issues for me?) (recall there's a 5° (at night it can be even higher) difference from the front most 2nd&3rd floor rooms and the very back 2nd&3rd rooms)

ethicalpaul

The smaller number one has two thread sizes. It has a male 3/4" and it has a female 1/2". Why the #2 doesn't share this amazingly useful feature is a mystery of history.

dabrakeman

Perhaps covered above but I assume you are going to "add" the #2 to the #1 rather than just replace? On an antler. If you just type in "antler" in the search on this forum you will find numerous threads with pictorial examples.

SteamingatMohawk

Or, if things are tight, use a union somewhere in the arrangement. That would eliminate having to rotate the #2.

SteamingatMohawk

SteamingatMohawk

Like this ugly quick sketch.

Tuggy

dabrakeman said:

Perhaps covered above but I assume you are going to "add" the #2 to the #1 rather than just replace? On an antler.

Actually, I was planning to do the simplest thing and just replace.

Do you think it would be worth the extra steps to put it on an antler of some kind? I really want to minimize the chances of any issues at all. If I "antler" that'd be 90° elbows, then horizontal antler I suppose.

Chances of condensate building up in that antler causing problems? or not really..

Tuggy

SteamingatMohawk said:

Or, if things are tight, use a union somewhere in the arrangement. That would eliminate having to rotate the #2.

I see your sketch, but I am unclear as to what any advantage would be in my context (OP pictures) over what @Bcos17 suggested in his post just above.

*edit:

Wait- Maybe I do get this: Does the union allow one to "temporarily" change the angle at which the final "leg" of the "extension" is at , so that the vent can be screwed in/tightened while it is oriented parallel to the ceiling? Making it easier to tighten? And then after that you can "rotate" the entire final leg (with the vent) back vertically? and then tighten the union down?

I'll look for some YT vids of this being done ..

dabrakeman

Tuggy said:

dabrakeman said:

Perhaps covered above but I assume you are going to "add" the #2 to the #1 rather than just replace? On an antler.

Actually, I was planning to do the simplest thing and just replace.

Do you think it would be worth the extra steps to put it on an antler of some kind? I really want to minimize the chances of any issues at all. If I "antler" that'd be 90° elbows, then horizontal antler I suppose.

Chances of condensate building up in that antler causing problems? or not really..

Up to you but I have two Gorton #2's on a 35' main and it is not maxed out.

One (short) nipple up from the main to a 90° elbow, a second (short) nipple to a second 90° elbow to turn back near horizontal but with just a slight upward pitch. That is how I did mine. Then you can use short nipples and appropriate T's off that second 90 to add as many vents as you want whether 3/4" or 1/2" base. I'm no plumber but you can get all the pipe at most any hardware store including Home Cheapo. The piping is easy and a bit fun. Getting old fittings off, not so much fun, but it doesn't seem you should have to do any of that.

Tuggy

Wait- I'm a bit confused:

dabrakeman said:

.. One (short) nipple up from the main to a 90° elbow, ..

This makes it horizontal (parallel w/the main) already does it not?

dabrakeman said:

.. a second (short) nipple to a second 90° elbow to turn back near horizontal ..

and does this not point it back up vertically? Perpendicular to the main? Ready for the vent to be screwed in, in proper position pointing up?

* I get this now. The second 90° can certainly be rotated in a 360° plane so it can have a back pitch. Took me some time to conceptualize. Lol. The first 90° elbow would be close to perpendicular to the main, since I'm about at the wall front wall already. I suppose oriented like that it will still have enough of a slight "back pitch" that liquids should flow back in to the main.

I see how this could work..

dabrakeman said:

.. but with just a slight upward pitch. That is how I did mine. ..

Does an antler itself need to be well above the plane of the main? Or is the only thing that matters the total length of the antler itself?

SteamingatMohawk

The use of the union is to allow the other parts to be threaded together more easily as two separate subassemblies. Then you connect them together at the union joint. This is helpful if you don't have room to install the Gorton #2 onto the upper 45 degree elbow.

You just have to choose the right length nipples and aim the lower elbow in the proper direction to fit the upper subassembly.

I'm not crazy about a two 90 degree elbows to the vent. A union adds a little cost, but is easy to do.

SteamingatMohawk

The direct answer to your reply is that it's just another way to do it and it avoids having any horizontal sections.

If you insist on using more than one vent, just substitute the upper elbow with either a tee or 90 degree elbow and add the extra fittings as suggested above.

Tuggy

.. If you insist on using more than one vent, just substitute the upper elbow with either a tee or 90 degree elbow and add the extra fittings as suggested above.

Yeah. I'm strongly considering making an antler now, because the run is 45+ feet (maybe 50) and adding another vent is a possibility, or simply utilizing the Gorton no.1 also right away.

The pitching of the antler is what concerns me as I'm up against the wall already and doubling back on top of the main using 90s would result in the wrong pitch as far as I can tell.

OK. I think I understand how using a 45 and a street 45 together (or two 45s with a nipple) I might be able dial-in "pitched-back" slope in to the main now.

Tuggy

So as I have 2 x Gorton no.1s in my possession, and I will procure a Gorton no.2, this is what I'm thinking:
Antler:

1. 45° street el off main pointing back over the main
   
2. 4" nipple (clear the beam against wall; maybe shorter)
   
3. 90° elbow oriented slighty after "9 o'clock" (just above horizontal to keep pitch back toward main) (need to remove one more ceiling square there to see what's up in that joist space to the left in my pic)
   
4. close nipple
   
5. union
   
6. 2" nipple
   
7. 3/4" reducing T w/G#2
   
8. 2" nipple
   
9. 3/4" T w/G#1
   
10. THEN either:
    
11. 90° street el w/G#1
    
12. OR
    
13. 2" nipple
    
14. 3/4" T w/G#1 & 3rd leg with 3/4" plug
    

Sounds feasible guys?

Removed some ceiling squares. I've got about 24" of space to the left of the main as seen:

I think my plan should work ok. Plenty of room for an antler there.

* Nipple sizes for the antler will depend on what's above the other section of drop ceiling
* * Maybe I should not use 2" nipples but 3" nipples so I have more to "grab on to" with wrenches as I don't have a thin knipex type pliers although I do have several channel locks. .

Tuggy

Revisiting this for the upcoming winter season.

Cold weather is upon us so I've finally got the parts from SH for this,

Here's a mock up of my antler which will go where the current G#1 sits in the pic in my post just above:

Street 45 coming off the main. 4" nipple, 90°, close nip, union, 3" nip, reducing Tee + G#2, 3" nip, Tee + G#1 (currently still on the main), nip, Tee + G#1 w/plug on run.

I thought about using a 90° + G#1 at the end instead of another Tee w/plug, but it seems it'd be awfully close to the other G#1 on the right.

The horizontal length of the antler run after the initial 90° is about 18".

I plan to make the switch over next week.

BobC

Make sre that run with the vents on it has some slope on it so water will drain back to the boiler.

ethicalpaul

the vents don’t mind being close to each other. Looks like it will work

Waher

Before you install that vent antler, wash it out with dish detergent and water for several minutes to get all of the manufacturing oils out of the inside of the pipe so that it won't cause issues with your boiler water.

Tuggy

@Waher I was thinking about this. What about using brake cleaner? Or not?

EdTheHeaterMan

Anything to remove the cutting oil and pipe dope. Dawn dishwashing soap cuts oil pretty good too. Just ask a Duck from the last tanker spill!

ethicalpaul

Dawn is good, it’s just oil.

Tuggy

Reason I was asking is because I don't have a slop sink in the basement, so I'd have to do it upstairs in the house proper… or I could use the garden hose in the basement and fill a basin w/sudsy water.. but the brake cleaner outside would be quicker/simpler maybe….

ethicalpaul

Pretty nasty stuff just to clean some oil. Do you wash your car with brake cleaner? 😅 It's your yard, but I would put some suds in a bucket and a brush.

Waher

@Tuggy do NOT use brake cleaner or anything toxic. Dish soap and water is all you want to use. Regular Dawn is what most of us use. If you don't feel comfortable washing it in a bathroom sink, a 5 gallon bucket from a hardware store to soak a few minutes, slosh, pour through outside, and then run clean water to rise off, is all you need.

Do not wash the antler with the vents screwed in.

Tuggy

Lazyness be damned! Dawn and a bucket it is!

Tuggy

Couple of questions:

Just checking the fitment by hand here before finalizing the assembly and I found that the 4½" nipple that's my initial "off shoot" of the Street 45 from the main brings the antler up too high, and the G#2 can't clear the sub-floor. So I had to switch the first 3" nipple from the antler-run with the 4½", and that allows the G#2 to just clear the sub-floor and the beam, but only by a small amount:

The vent/nipple of the G#2 is 1" from the sub-floor and the body/face is 1½" from the horizontal beam. This is how it will be:

(none of the above is final, just mock up)

Does that pose any issues to the wooden beam or sub-floor? or the vent itself? Because there's no other way things will fit. I presume not but wanted to check.

Should I rotate the street 45 away from the wall in the plane so it's a little less than perpendicular to the main (80°?)

Also, when securing close nipples which are all thread and no smooth pipe, is there some method to grab the nipple to secure it, other than just putting a channel lock on the middle portion of it? which would mung up the middle threads? I assume not, but I guess that's fine.

ethicalpaul

you can aim it however you want as long as it pitches back to the main

to tighten the close nipple you grab the fitting on the far side and spin it

Tuggy

..

grab the fitting on the far side and spin it

So you mean, grab the fittings that the nipple is connecting, and not the nipple at all.. ?

Oh and also, no tape/dope on the internal union connection iteself right? only between the union and each fitting it's connecting, yeah?

delcrossv

Oh and also, no tape/dope on the internal union connection iteself right? only between the union and each fitting it's connecting, yeah?

Yep.

ethicalpaul

So you mean, grab the fittings that the nipple is connecting, and not the nipple at all.. ?

Right, then it will tighten both joints equally. I do this even with longer nipples that I could grab with the wrench.

Tuggy

My somewhat dope-sloppy first antler, installed, pitched back to the main.

When I first put on the initial Street 45°, I couldn't turn by hand any further than w/the opening facing the wall, then I wrenched it 180° (using a little strength) so the opening faced back over the main, and I thought I was G2G.

However, when I connected the service branch at the union to complete the job, a simple gentle push on said horizontal branch caused the Street 45° to fairly easily turn/tighten more, much to my surprise.

So I removed the branch, removed the union from 90° El, and removed the El so I could attempt to rotate the Street 45° another full turn, which I was very concerned about because these pipes are old and I was afraid it might be too much. Turned out with a 14" wrench and small turns, it made it all the way around again.

Having never done this before, I had no reference for how it should "feel' if I am over tightening, but I now realize I was just being overly cautious. These fittings/pipes can apparently take a lot more force than I was gingerly applying.

Everything is solid and tight now. Live and learn.

I'll follow up with results after observing the system for some days.

p.s. does that blue dope come out of shirts in the normal laundry? Lol

ethicalpaul

That's why I use tape 😂

Yeah 3/4" is very strong, and everything larger is crazy strong

One thing to keep in mind is that by having 3 vents on there you have tripled your odds of developing a steam leak in your main venting. Keep an eye on it.

RTW

I have a similar ( almost identical) antler main vent set-up with a Gorton #2 and two Gorton #1. I used pipe dope on fittings, but used Teflon tape on vent connections to make is easier to remove vents if needed to boil in white vinegar every 5 years or so for cleaning.

Gortons work well for main vents for me, but MOM self-destructed as a main vent. However, MOM on my cast iron radiators seem fine

Not that this is new info. just passing along my experience. To ethicalpaul's point on leaks, if your losing water these vents should be first base to check for leaks; as was the case when the MOM's failed

Regards,

Bob

Tuggy

Thanks guys. I'll diligently watch this service branch for the next few weeks as the heating becomes more regular.

Paul, you mean steam-leak from one of the fitting connection points? Or from one of the vents themselves (due to vent failure)? That would just be a drip of water right? Or would it just be visible steam shooting out?

Is it bad that I used dope&tape on the vents as well? Should I remove and re-do it with just tape? Or at this point just leave it?