Broken historic fridge

mattmia2

That is new enough that you should be able to find a catalog and come up with the original component numbers. Note that the type of capacitor used for motor starting and running typically have tolerances around 50%.

ChrisJ

mattmia2 said:

solid state start relay that needs to cool before it'll work again?

I'm not a fan of the PTC thermistor as a "relay".

I use them on my monitor tops and I sleep fine at night. 

Dsisson

Here's the timeline:

I bought the home about 1.5 years ago. At that time, the fridge ran, but didn't get cold enough.

I hired an actual refrigeration professional - they came and did some work on it. I think they charged up the R409A.

About 9 months later, it stopped cooling. I hired the same company to come, and he removed all the start components and took them away. He added the 3-1 kit.

The 3-1 kit lasted about 6 months.

I ordered the correct start components and should have them in a few days. I've been studying photos of the components and the wiring diagrams and I'm pretty sure I understand how to wire them in. Not positive about how to connect the fan yet, but I'm sure it'll be self explanatory since it's pretty simple now.

I'll report back once the components are installed. If it doesn't work I'll be hiring the pros again. If it does work, I'll still be hiring them, to make sure it's not short cycling or something else - I don't want future problems. I might hire a different company since the last one screwed me with the 3-1 kit (and charged over $1000 for the experience of installing it.).

pecmsg

Where is this located?

mattmia2

Did they figure out where it was leaking? If they changed from r12 to something else the pressures will be different and that pressure control would have needed to have been adjusted. That access port itself is fine, the cap with the o-ring that comes with cheap access ports is not, it should be sealed with a flare cap so it is a metal to metal seal that won't leak.

the bearings in the condenser fan should get reoiled occasionally, if it is not leaking that is really the only part that should need service.

Dsisson

We are in Pawtucket Rhode Island. It had been converted to R409A before I bought the home.

pecmsg

Dsisson said:

We are in Pawtucket Rhode Island. It had been converted to R409A before I bought the home.

I just repaired an old Traulsen refrigerator. Found R-12 on line. 

EBEBRATT-Ed

Most single phase motors and compressors fail due to overheating. Without the correct starting components (or starting components that have failed) the motor will try to start-trip try to start-trip rinse and repeat. In many cases by the time someone notices the equipment is not running the motor has overheated so much it is now French fried.

mattmia2

I think the guy that repairs all sorts of early fridges uses cans of air duster and a clamp on can tapper.

PRR

Do you have a owner/operator mini-supermarket, deli, or bodega in town? That looks like bodega cooler equipment and there has to be a guy who services all the odd gear that got sold to market owners in the past 40 years. He'll probably be older and have a rusty truck which he knows to park behind the market. He'll have a garage on the poor side of town full of new and salvaged reefer-parts, and know what works with what. Ask the mini-market manager who he calls when the chill is gone.

Propane: our cellar freezer quit and we just got a new one. I was startled to find that "R-290" is really propane. (EXtra pure; the 'prope' my gas guy supplies is a little dirty and a bit wet and is a mix of gasses that burn alike but may not cool alike.) Scared? Apparently these use less gas than Freon machines, and the potential leak is less than me messing in the cellar with a plumber's torch. Also the last time I had a Freon leak was me with a blunt screwdriver, de-icing; since then, self-defrost ONLY.

pecmsg

PRR said:

Do you have a owner/operator mini-supermarket, deli, or bodega in town? That looks like bodega cooler equipment and there has to be a guy who services all the odd gear that got sold to market owners in the past 40 years. He'll probably be older and have a rusty truck which he knows to park behind the market. He'll have a garage on the poor side of town full of new and salvaged reefer-parts, and know what works with what. Ask the mini-market manager who he calls when the chill is gone.

Propane: our cellar freezer quit and we just got a new one. I was startled to find that "R-290" is really propane. (EXtra pure; the 'prope' my gas guy supplies is a little dirty and a bit wet and is a mix of gasses that burn alike but may not cool alike.) Scared? Apparently these use less gas than Freon machines, and the potential leak is less than me messing in the cellar with a plumber's torch. Also the last time I had a Freon leak was me with a blunt screwdriver, de-icing; since then, self-defrost ONLY.

Im that Older guy and im paying off a 2023 Ram Van that i can stand up in. (That Van cost more than a few houses ive bought)

Any supply house will have commercial refrigeration guys that can service that.

WMno57

pecmsg said:

Im that Older guy and im paying off a 2023 Ram Van that i can stand up in.

I think you have the Pentastar engine which is known for Oil Cooler problems. FYI
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/infamous-3-6-pentastar-oil-cooler-strikes.325558/

ChrisJ

According to a good friend of mine that unit isn't anything special and it's likely from the 80s.  He said he wouldn't bother repairing it if it needs a compressor, just replace it with a new setup you'll be better off.

Dsisson

ChrisJ said:

According to a good friend of mine that unit isn't anything special and it's likely from the 80s.  He said he wouldn't bother repairing it if it needs a compressor, just replace it with a new setup you'll be better off.

That's what I figure too. The start components are coming sometime today so I figure by the end of the weekend I'll know if the compressor is dead or not. If it's dead, I assume I'll need to buy a new unit that uses R-134a.

Will the (sorry, I don't know the proper terminology) unit (fan and coil) inside the fridge need to be replaced?

Furthermore, what model condenser should I buy? TECUMSEH or other brand?

Dsisson

I suppose I'll just be hiring a pro if it's dead and letting them select the unit. I realized that they might want to install something that has a thermostat inside the fridge. *facepalm*. I'm just not looking forward to $2000+ to get this thing to work.

mattmia2

That is new enough that you should be able to find a catalo

Dsisson said:

That's what I figure too. The start components are coming sometime today so I figure by the end of the weekend I'll know if the compressor is dead or not. If it's dead, I assume I'll need to buy a new unit that uses R-134a.

You know it is not the compressor, it is a control problem and possibly a charge problem.

pecmsg

I have hundreds of units operating off of pressure only. As long as the ambient temperature around the condensing unit is stable it works fine if you do want to put a thermostat in the box have them install a pump down solenoid as well. Then you don’t need wiring between the box and the condensing unit. 

Dsisson

Some success - it's starting and running - Temp in the fridge is stable. I adjusted the pressure very slightly and am waiting to see the result - it was cooling a bit too low (32.5 deg). Once it stabilizes I'll post the on time/off time cycle. I want to thank everyone for advice.

mattmia2

the important part is to make sure it starts every time, that is what burned out your start components. the old capacitor may have gone bad if it doesn't unload and depends on significant starting torque.

Dsisson

It's stabilized at 37 degrees, from monitoring the temp, it's holding fairly stable at that temp.

ON time: 52 seconds
OFF time: 2 minutes, 15 seconds.

The pressure settings allow me to adjust the pressure (currently set at approximately 40) and the differential (currently set approximately 20).

OK or call someone to do something?

mattmia2

is the differential additive or subtractive?

it should run much longer cycles than that but i'm not sure where the problem is, if it is in the charge or the control settings or a combination of both.

pecmsg

Dsisson said:

It's stabilized at 37 degrees, from monitoring the temp, it's holding fairly stable at that temp. ON time: 52 seconds OFF time: 2 minutes, 15 seconds. The pressure settings allow me to adjust the pressure (currently set at approximately 40) and the differential (currently set approximately 20). OK or call someone to do something?

52 seconds is too short of a run time. 

It takes 15 minutes for the system to stabilize. 

I’d look at a smaller condensing unit 

Dsisson

mattmia2 said:

is the differential additive or subtractive?

subtractive

pecmsg

mattmia2 said:

is the differential additive or subtractive? it should run much longer cycles than that but i'm not sure where the problem is, if it is in the charge or the control settings or a combination of both.

Cut out is Cut In MINUS differential. 

mattmia2

so the evaporator is at like 45 degrees f at cutin and 20 degrees f at cutout.

is there an evaporator fan? is it working?

ChrisJ

My Monitor Tops run 2 to 5 minutes at a time, typically.

As an example, 2 minutes on, 15 minutes off would be considered a good cycle.
If there's a heavy buildup of frost it'll run longer, 5 minutes or so but it'll also stay off longer.

Those run times are considered very short by most, but normal for these specific machines. Under a minute would be totally unacceptable.

mattmia2

ChrisJ said:

My Monitor Tops run 2 to 5 minutes at a time, typically.

As an example, 2 minutes on, 15 minutes off would be considered a good cycle.
If there's a heavy buildup of frost it'll run longer, 5 minutes or so but it'll also stay off longer.

Those run times are considered very short by most, but normal for these specific machines. Under a minute would be totally unacceptable.

The monitor top also has a centrifugal unloader built in to the compressor.

ChrisJ

mattmia2 said:

ChrisJ said:

My Monitor Tops run 2 to 5 minutes at a time, typically.

As an example, 2 minutes on, 15 minutes off would be considered a good cycle.
If there's a heavy buildup of frost it'll run longer, 5 minutes or so but it'll also stay off longer.

Those run times are considered very short by most, but normal for these specific machines. Under a minute would be totally unacceptable.

The monitor top also has a centrifugal unloader built in to the compressor.

CA series does, yes.
DR and CK use an oil pressure fed design for the unloaders.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Check and see if the evaporator coil needs cleaning

kenjohnson

Dsisson said:

Are the 3 wires I was pointing to the same as in this diagram? What does C, S, R mean?

That is just a magnificent old fridge and kudos to you for keeping it running. I am very envious.

R, S and T is commonly used to describe the three AC output phases that would connect to a motor (A, B, and C would refer to the utility feed phases). I'd say it is a pretty good guess that R and S in the diagram refers to the two-phase inputs to the motor winding.

The single-phase motor is a split-phase capacitor-start motor. The capacitor is switched into the circuit on startup to apply a voltage to a starting winding that is 90 degrees out of phase to the motor winding, which gets the motor turning. Then, once the motor is turning, the capacitor is switched out. I am guessing that the C either means Capacitor or Contactor (the switch that would put the capacitor in circuit or take it out). See the image below (hope I added the image correctly):

JUGHNE

IIRC, C is the common to both windings....S is the start winding......R is the run winding.

The common leg passes thru the overload which will open if current draw is too high.

CSIR is Capacitor Start Induction Run.

The capacitor is in the circuit for just a fraction of a second until the current (amp draw) thru the run winding is enough to activate the current relay and disconnect the start cap and winding.

That current relay would be normally closed for Capacitor Start (drawn wrong IMO) and then quickly open for Induction Run of the run winding only.

Wrong.....see correction below!

pecmsg

JUGHNE said:

IIRC, C is the common to both windings....S is the start winding......R is the run winding.

The common leg passes thru the overload which will open if current draw is too high.

CSIR is Capacitor Start Induction Run.

The capacitor is in the circuit for just a fraction of a second until the current (amp draw) thru the run winding is enough to activate the current relay and disconnect the start cap and winding.

That current relay would be normally closed for Capacitor Start (drawn wrong IMO) and then quickly open for Induction Run of the run winding only.

A current relay is Normally open. When trying to start it closes, when the amperage drops as the motor comes up to speed it opens dropping out the start capacitor.

JUGHNE

Yes, you are right. I am wrong.

I had potential relays on my mind.

I seldom, if ever, see current relays.

clammy

Have u ever cleaned the condensing coil ? It looks a little dirty also is the basement where the condenser is located get any sort of air exchange or does the ambient temp where the unit is located get increase as the unit runs ,if the compressor is getting hot and your liquid line is hot I would start by cleaning the condenser and see if that lowers the liquid line temp . High head pressure can and will over heat a compressor and usually make it hard for the compressor to start espically if the pressure have not equilized and if the compressor has been running this way for any length of time . I ve been asked a few times to re do an antique fridges so ale to yours and have taken the pass . There’s usually a lot more to re working those fridges then meets the eye and they might out last a newer model but the leakage ,gaskets and the fact that there old doesn’t make most guys want to jump in plus I would never guarantee temp or performance or how long it will work that’s a blind stab .