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Which residential, variable speed, ECM pumps, controllable with 0-10 volts, exist in 2024?

davidd
davidd Member Posts: 84
Hello,

I looked on the site and the most recent posts I found were from 2018 or 2019. These are the only two residential class pumps I could find. Are there any others that are variable speed, ECM, controllable with an external 0-10 volts, and are in the same price range as two below?
  • Grundfos ALPHA1 26-99 (max flow = 4 GPM, max head = 42 feet)
  • Armstrong Compass H20-20 (max flow = 20 GPM, max head = 20 feet)
Note: I found a Taco pump (VR3452) that is ECM and 0-10 volt controllable, but it is much more expensive than the above pumps.

Thanks,
David

Comments

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,105
    What size pump do you need? What is the application?

     The Alpha 15-58 takes a 0-10VDC signal

    You are comparing 3 widely different type of circulators

    A 26-99 is a high head version, same with that Taco.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    davidd
  • davidd
    davidd Member Posts: 84
    hot_rod said:

    What size pump do you need? What is the application?

     The Alpha 15-58 takes a 0-10VDC signal

    You are comparing 3 widely different type of circulators

    A 26-99 is a high head version, same with that Taco.

    I'm aware that they have different characteristics. This is just a list of the pumps that exist with those features (ecm, 0-10 volts, variable speed, reasonably priced).

    I don't see the 15-58 as having 0-10 volt external control?




    Thanks,
    David
    PC7060
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,105
    Last line in the Control Mode section
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • davidd
    davidd Member Posts: 84
    hot_rod said:

    Last line in the Control Mode section

    Only the ALPHA1 26-99 column has that row checked.
  • dko
    dko Member Posts: 586
    B&G Ecocirc+ 20-18
    The + version
    davidd
  • davidd
    davidd Member Posts: 84
    dko said:

    B&G Ecocirc+ 20-18
    The + version

    Good find!
  • Dave H_2
    Dave H_2 Member Posts: 553
    The Taco 0026e, the 0034e and the 0034eplus all have 0-10v control.

    Now these may not be ECM, but any size, standard AC, 00 circ can be ordered with the "VV" control that would accept 0-10

    Whats your application or flow and head needed?
    Dave H
    davidd
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,272
    Not sure what you are after -- but you have the cart hitched before the horse. You need to pick a pump which has the head/flow relationship you need first, since all the whizzy control magic in the world can't fix that, and then figure out how to control it.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • davidd
    davidd Member Posts: 84
    Dave H_2 said:

    The Taco 0026e, the 0034e and the 0034eplus all have 0-10v control.

    Thank you! Somehow those escaped me when I was looking on the Taco site.
    Dave H_2 said:


    Now these may not be ECM, but any size, standard AC, 00 circ can be ordered with the "VV" control that would accept 0-10

    Thanks, but I am only interested in ECM for his list. Having said that, for my own personal needs, I have a 008vdt from about 2011. Is the vv control something that can be added after the fact? If so, would it work on an older unit like the 008vdt? If so, what is the model number of the vv control?
    Dave H_2 said:


    Whats your application or flow and head needed?

    This is just a list of what exists. People can see if the specs match their needs. They might need a steeper curve or a flatter curve.

    Thanks,
    David
  • davidd
    davidd Member Posts: 84

    Not sure what you are after -- but you have the cart hitched before the horse. You need to pick a pump which has the head/flow relationship you need first, since all the whizzy control magic in the world can't fix that, and then figure out how to control it.

    I am after putting together a list that people can pick from once they figure out their head and flow needs.
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,272
    At some risk of sounding like a twit, may I humbly point out that ANY ECM or three phase motor can be controlled with a 0 to 10 volt signal. The smallest such that I know of are found on some personal drones. The largest are multi-ten thousand horsepower motors found on, for example, the SS Queen Mary II. There is nothing magic about an "ECM pump". A pump is a pump, and its characteristics are determined by the internal geometry of the pump. It is powered by a motor. Its characteristics are determined by its windings and armature and magnetic structures. The motor is powered by a power supply -- and that is where the electronically controllled bit comes in.

    A more accurate search might be for whether a given maker has an off the shelf pump with analogue (0-10 VDC) control available, or is there an analogue control module available for such and such a pump from an external vendor.

    And yes, should you ask, I'm not a fan of "plug 'n' play"" in real world applications.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • davidd
    davidd Member Posts: 84
    edited February 15

    At some risk of sounding like a twit, may I humbly point out that ANY ECM or three phase motor can be controlled with a 0 to 10 volt signal. The smallest such that I know of are found on some personal drones. The largest are multi-ten thousand horsepower motors found on, for example, the SS Queen Mary II. There is nothing magic about an "ECM pump". A pump is a pump, and its characteristics are determined by the internal geometry of the pump. It is powered by a motor. Its characteristics are determined by its windings and armature and magnetic structures. The motor is powered by a power supply -- and that is where the electronically controllled bit comes in.

    A more accurate search might be for whether a given maker has an off the shelf pump with analogue (0-10 VDC) control available, or is there an analogue control module available for such and such a pump from an external vendor.

    And yes, should you ask, I'm not a fan of "plug 'n' play"" in real world applications.

    The reason I specified ECM instead of PSC, is for reduced power consumption, not related to external control. When I say pump, I mean the pump and motor, as that is how these products are packaged.

    I assumed it was understood, when I wrote "controllable with an external 0-10 volts", that I meant it comes with terminals that accept 0-10 volts for speed control. I'm not sure how I could write that any more clearly.

    You mentioned "off the shelf". If the question is whether the list should include models that can be modified to be speed controlled via 0-10 volt input, then the answer is -- No, I'm not compiling a list of models that can be disassembled and internally modified to perform differently than the manufacturers intended. :)

    Thanks,
    David
    dko
  • Dave H_2
    Dave H_2 Member Posts: 553
    @davidd
    The VV control is not purchased separate from the pump. However, the pump and controller box looks identical to the VDT like you currently have. Here is the complete range of variable speed 00 circs
    Dave H
    davidd
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,105
    I think you just need to search all the manufacturers offering to see what ECM models have the connection available for 0-10VDC.

    Grundfos Alpha and Magna
    Taco
    B&G aka Xylem
    Armstrong
    Wilo
    Aqua Motion

    These are the most common brands of wet rotor style ECM, it is a rapidly changing field, every year you see more options and models available.
    It looks like all the brands now offer basic ECM and versions with more features. It is a price game for manufacturers when they start adding features like 0-10 input, etc. Will the market pay more for these features.

    I know you mentioned ECM, but a basic "wave chopper" triac relay can be added to the PSC motors to vary their speed. This technology is common on solar controllers to vary pump speed.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    davidd
  • davidd
    davidd Member Posts: 84
    Dave H_2 said:

    @davidd
    The VV control is not purchased separate from the pump. However, the pump and controller box looks identical to the VDT like you currently have. Here is the complete range of variable speed 00 circs

    Thanks Dave. Do you have any document that shows how to wire a 008-vdt for 0-10 volt speed control?

    Thanks,
    David
  • davidd
    davidd Member Posts: 84
    Dave H_2 said:

    @davidd
    The VV control is not purchased separate from the pump. However, the pump and controller box looks identical to the VDT like you currently have. Here is the complete range of variable speed 00 circs

    If a pump is purchased with a VV control, does it allow the pump to be used in delta T or delta P mode (or any other modes), or does that control *only* allow for external control?

    Thanks,
    David
  • Dave H_2
    Dave H_2 Member Posts: 553
    @davidd The control board is different, so you would be not be able to change a VDT to a VV. The size of the controller enclosure is the same
    Dave H
    davidd
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,105
    edited February 15
    I think these Grundfos V/S are being phased out, everything is going ECM.

    It looks like the control for this and that Taco were built by tekmar OEM division.

    I just hook a 9 V battery up to them to get full speed.

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    davidd
  • davidd
    davidd Member Posts: 84
    hot_rod said:

    I think you just need to search all the manufacturers offering to see what ECM models have the connection available for 0-10VDC.

    Grundfos Alpha and Magna
    Taco
    B&G aka Xylem
    Armstrong
    Wilo
    Aqua Motion

    These are the most common brands of wet rotor style ECM, it is a rapidly changing field, every year you see more options and models available.
    It looks like all the brands now offer basic ECM and versions with more features. It is a price game for manufacturers when they start adding features like 0-10 input, etc. Will the market pay more for these features.

    I know you mentioned ECM, but a basic "wave chopper" triac relay can be added to the PSC motors to vary their speed. This technology is common on solar controllers to vary pump speed.

    I tried searching, but some of the vendors aren't the best about making this type of thing easy to find. I figured it would be valuable to have a list, across vendors, in one spot (here). I know the models change over time. That's why I'm creating this list for 2024. The information I found on The Wall, where this was last discussed, was from 2018 or 2019, so out of date.

    I'm aware of triacs. I've also seen VFDs (variable frequency drives) being used in AC compressors and submersible well pumps. For the context of this list, it is only about ECM driven pumps that also come equipped to be wired for external speed control. And to be clear, the speed control would be through 0-10 volts DC. Although, I suppose PWM would be an option too. What would not be wanted on the list is any products using proprietary network protocols (like what has happened in the AC market). I don't know if such a thing exists with residential circulator pumps. I won't waste space with that discussion here, other than to say I hope professionals and homeowners alike don't allow that to happen to the hydronic market.

    Getting back to the list of pump vendors you supplied, if anyone knows of the exact models that fit the criteria for the list, please post them. I'll periodically update the first post to include the models as people find and report them.

    Thanks,
    David
  • davidd
    davidd Member Posts: 84
    hot_rod said:


    I just hook a 9 V battery up to them to get full speed.

    That brought a smile to my face. Thanks for that! :D

    David
  • dko
    dko Member Posts: 586
    • Grundfos ALPHA1 26-99
    • Grundfos MAGNA3 (ALL)
    • Armstrong Compass H20-20
    • Armstrong Compass R (ALL)
    • B&G Ecocirc+ 20-18
    • B&G Ecocirc XL (ALL)
    • Resideo AquaPUMP PCVF-ECM2020 (Armstrong Compass relabel)
    • Wilo-Stratos MAXO (ALL)
    davidd
  • davidd
    davidd Member Posts: 84
    dko said:

    • Grundfos ALPHA1 26-99
    • Grundfos MAGNA3 (ALL)
    • Armstrong Compass H20-20
    • Armstrong Compass R (ALL)
    • B&G Ecocirc+ 20-18
    • B&G Ecocirc XL (ALL)
    • Resideo AquaPUMP PCVF-ECM2020 (Armstrong Compass relabel)
    • Wilo-Stratos MAXO (ALL)
    Wow!! @dko for the win!! Outstanding!

    Interesting note about the Resideo being a relabeled Armstrong Compass. I wonder if there are any feature differences?

    Some of these are a bit more expensive, but I'll sift through them and try to put the pumps in low/medium/high buckets.

    Thanks!
    David