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Ghost or Gravity heating

Robster28
Robster28 Member Posts: 9
edited February 10 in Gas Heating

I have 9 zone circulatir system Hydrolic. INCLUDES hot water heater and 1 radiant heat zone. This particulat person before mw zoned almost all the rooms. When any pump goes on somw of the rooms heat up. All the pumps are wired correctly so that not the problems. I am assuming it need flow valves? The taco pumps are older and I dont think they have zone valves. Im not sure if you can add flow valves to older tacos. I will attach photoa maybe someone can guide me hot to fix this. Thanks Rob


Comments

  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,337
    “Flow checks” not “zone valves”. They’re probably in the outlet of the pump’s volute and probably sticking open due to debris or sludge.

    You’ll have to isolate one of the circulators and un-bolt it to confirm.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    PC7060
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,296
    And the wiring is a mess that should be cleaned up.
  • Robster28
    Robster28 Member Posts: 9
    Thanks, my pumps are 0010- F3 2011 is wriite  on it. Can I add flow check to it if it doe t have one? I was following pump wires whe I took pictures. That why the relays boxes are off and so is gang box.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 21,796
    Looks like  B&G check valve iso flanges? That is where you will find the check. It will be a job removing all those pumps to service the checks,

    Is this a new problem, or has it always existed?


    Is that boiler ok to be direct piped?
    600 or so watts of power to move how many gpm?
    A poster system for over pumping😉
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    IronmanGGross
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,337
    The boiler has an internal LLH with a baffle that can be left in for direct piping or removed for p/s piping.

    I agree: It’s definitely over-pumped.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • SteveSan
    SteveSan Member Posts: 231
    @Robster28 Any standard Taco 00 series cartridge circ made after 2016 was manufactured to accept an IFC. Unfortunately, if yours are from 2011, then you wouldn’t be able to insert an IFC.
  • Robster28
    Robster28 Member Posts: 9
    Problem always existed 3 years now since i bought the house.. 1 room gets really hot.
    dennis53
  • Robster28
    Robster28 Member Posts: 9
    So what would someone do to fix this issue. Replacing all new pumps would be costly or can I do something else.
  • delcrossv
    delcrossv Member Posts: 652
    edited February 11
    Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
  • Robster28
    Robster28 Member Posts: 9
    So can I just put these flow check valves above each  pump. Thanks for your reply.
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,337
    Well, this loop has an external check valve:


    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,337
    Robster28 said:
    So can I just put these flow check valves above each  pump. Thanks for your reply.
    As hot_rod said, the Bell & Gossett isolation flanges can, and probably do have internal check valves. You’ll simply have to close the valves on one of the circulators, remove the two bolts, and look into the flange. Do it on the one on the supply side, but close the valves on both sides of the pump.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    delcrossv
  • delcrossv
    delcrossv Member Posts: 652
    Ironman said:


    Robster28 said:

    So can I just put these flow check valves above each  pump. Thanks for your reply.

    As hot_rod said, the Bell & Gossett isolation flanges can, and probably do have internal check valves. You’ll simply have to close the valves on one of the circulators, remove the two bolts, and look into the flange. Do it on the one on the supply side, but close the valves on both sides of the pump.

    And if they don't, you can go with plan B.
    Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 21,796
    edited February 11
    Turn both valves off remove the pump and  look up inside the upper valve. I predict you will see a check

    I don’t remember what holds the check in the valve

    Sometimes they have a removable spring clip sometimes plastic snap tabs hold the check in

    If it was put in with snap tabs, you will need to collapse it to remove it, and get new check

    what I would suggest is remove the pump and just crack open the upper valve. If no water comes out the check is good, no need to remove it

    Maybe start with the zone you suspect is ghosting?

    You may want to get new pump gaskets before you start.

    https://www.xylem.com/siteassets/brand/bell-amp-gossett/resources/submittal/a-129f.pdf
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    Ironman
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 7,480
    edited February 11
    You may have check valves already. What are the three items in the green boxes? Look for them on all the other zones.


    They are less expensive valves, if that is what they are. The Taco Sweat Check is a more expensive valve but it is also more dependable and has the ability to lift the valve to the open position if needed. The biggest drawback is that the valve operates by gravity, so the valve can only be installed on a horizontal pipe, unlike the lower cost type that you have.
    Edward F Young. Retired HVAC ContractorSpecialized in Residential Oil Burner and Hydronics
  • Robster28
    Robster28 Member Posts: 9
    Ok so the middle green arrow is the one that ghosts the most which has a check. The second one from the left Ghosts the most as well but that has no checkvalve. 
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,337
    edited February 12
    IDK why some of the loops have external check valves and others don’t. You’re gonna have to do what was recommended and see if there are internal checks in the pump isolation flanges to get to the bottom of this.

    For proper operation ALL of the loops MUST have a functioning check valve.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 21,796
    Is there a pump inside that boiler? That could be causing flow without zone pumps running.

    It does seem odd to have all the checks, some on supply, some on return piping. Seems like maybe a problem that has been going on for some time?
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 7,480
    Whan you say "Ghosts flow's" are you talking about the complete loop of that zone, or are you speaking about the first few feet of the zone warming up?

    Ghost Flow refers to lighter hot water traveling up the same pipe and the cooler heaver water traveling down that same pipe.
    Edward F Young. Retired HVAC ContractorSpecialized in Residential Oil Burner and Hydronics
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 7,480
    edited February 13
    Gravity flow is when the entire loop or zone is warmed up as a result of hot water flowing thru the pipe from the supply to the return which Henry Ford called Thermocycling. There was no water pump on the Model T Ford engine but there was a radiator and a fan to cool the water in it. To cool his engine, Henry depended on gravity, as did many heating systems back in the day

    There is one more possibility. If you do not have a check valve on every zone loop, then a circulator that is operating for one zone can cause water to flow in reverse thru another zone as illustrated here.



    You must have check valves on every zone or this reverse flow is inevitable.
    Read pages 11 and 12 of this great book. Zoning Made Easy It details why you need them on every zone. and maybe why you might need 2 on some zones.

    Edward F Young. Retired HVAC ContractorSpecialized in Residential Oil Burner and Hydronics
  • Robster28
    Robster28 Member Posts: 9
    So the problem is the two bedrooms right above the boiler. 1st and 2nd floor bedrooms. It ghost half the zone but the rooms get really hot. When any of the pumps gonon including hot water tank they seem to heat up but not the whole loop. What would one do here. It flowa up from the pumps. How much PSI do these valves let in simcw its going the same direction?
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 7,480
    This sounds like Ghost flow. You probably have one flow check valve per circulator zone. See if the Taco circulators have "IFC" in the model number. That stands for Internal Flo- Check. You may need to add a second flow check at the other end of the loop. You will want to read this booklet Zoning Made Easy.
    The info your want starts on page 11.
    Edward F Young. Retired HVAC ContractorSpecialized in Residential Oil Burner and Hydronics
  • Mustangman
    Mustangman Member Posts: 7
    Are all 9 of the circulators 0010s? Would seem to me with a few circulators running, there is water flying everywhere. I agree with flow checks. Remember some vertical checks have a spring but the older style B&G and Taco flow check are a weighted check that needs to be installed horizonally or 90 degree pattern. I don't know what you have downstream but a balancing valve or circuit setter would help get that high flow under control.
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 7,480

    Am I Wrong @DanHolohan?
    Edward F Young. Retired HVAC ContractorSpecialized in Residential Oil Burner and Hydronics
    ChicagoCooperatorPeteA
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,487
    Never! ❤️
    Retired and loving it.
    Larry WeingartenEdTheHeaterManErin Holohan Haskell
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 21,796
    What type of heaters do you have? 0010 seems like a lot of pump for zoning 
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Robster28
    Robster28 Member Posts: 9
    Ed not dure why thst arrow is there. That other zone is radiant heat zone for floor. Has its own loop with pump but that doesnt circulate all the way through maybe half the floors get warm. Here is a pucture.
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 7,480
    edited February 16
    Sorry for the confusion. That last post (about the arrow) was an inside joke with the members who have taken classes taught by Dan Holohan, the creator of this web forum.

    The 9th circulator being on the outlet of a mixing valve is the correct way to pipe that zone. Looks like someone learned the hard way, that the circulator pump does not belong where I placed the question mark, by the looks of the 2 copper couplings. LOL

    Some still have the question about your radiators... the Taco 0010 is a bigger pump than you need for a typical residential zone of radiation. Unless you home is 100,000 Sq Feet that needs a lot of radiators, you might save some $$$ on your electric usage if you replace those pumps with Taco 007 or Grundfos UPS 15-58 set on LOW speed.
    Edward F Young. Retired HVAC ContractorSpecialized in Residential Oil Burner and Hydronics
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 21,796
    Wondering why a separate fill and expansion tank at the radiant. Is there a heat exchanger involved.

    We still are curious why the mix of 007 and 010 circulators?
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Robster28
    Robster28 Member Posts: 9
    Yeah hotrod I dont get it ethier. Should I rmove the tank. Can that be the reason the radiant floor heat doesnt loop around? Only half the floors heat. So weird. I obly had the house 3 years so trying to figure out the problems.
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 7,480
    Can you tell us what kind, and how much radiator you have on zone #1? a picture would be helpful.

    Can you tell us what kind, and how much radiator you have on zone #2?

    Can you tell us what kind, and how much radiator you have on zone #3?

    I will ask about the other zones after we get an answer about the first three zones

    Edward F Young. Retired HVAC ContractorSpecialized in Residential Oil Burner and Hydronics
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 21,796
    edited February 19
    I can’t quite see how the piping to that mix valve zone connects to the boiler? When that zone calls it needs to fire the boiler also.
    Does that radiant zone heat at all? Any difference on the temperature gauges?

    If no heat at all you could have air bubbles in the loops.
    If it doesn’t heat well enough it could be piping or control issues.

    Unless there is some sort of heat exchanger in the piping to that mix valve station, I would get rid of the second, blue expansion tank. It’s not a hydronic tank, and possibl was not adjusted properly on the pressure side.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream