Thermal Pipe Insulation ..... "Inside-the-Pipe" ?

RickDelta

Hello HeatingHelp.com Community!

prelude:
In a special design application i'm doing, I take standard 2" DWV PVC drain pipe and change its molecular structure to an expanded form to MO-PVC (Molecular-Oriented-PVC)

The transition point from the heat (225 F at 30psi) supplying copper pipes into the prosses material (standard PVC) is a standard copper 2" sweat to female threaded end fitting. Here I transition to the standard 2" PVC pipe.

This intense heat at this transition point (copper to PVC) quickly fails the male threaded PVC end connection ..... and flash steam bursts the water line apart.

The only solution was to "insulate" the copper pipe and fitting with an insulating spray-on ceramic paint ..... "Inside" the copper pipe. This I extended all the way back to the heat source (apox.6ft)

Now, even with 225 F hot water flowing inside this copper pipe .... I can easily hold onto this pipe with my bare hands! Problem solved!





So, my thoughts are this:

Would this have a practical application in a "boiler room" application where there is a ton of copper pipe to be insulated?
The traditional "outer wrap" insulation works great ....... until you have to track down a leaking joint. The wrap can hide a leaking joint for years while corroding a large area of pipe connecting pipes (see pic below)

I envision going to the plumbing supply and ordering 20ft of 2" internally insulated boiler room pipe!

...... your thoughts on this?

Jamie Hall

Head loss. What is the roughness coefficient of that insulation?

hot_rod

What is the r value of the wet, inside insulation? On a designed system either the engineer or the energy codes will dictate the r value required on boiler or DHW piping.

RickDelta

Jamie Hall said:

Head loss. What is the roughness coefficient of that insulation?

Jamie Hall said:

Head loss. What is the roughness coefficient of that insulation?

No clue! : (
Its very smooth inside! No perceivable mini or micro"bumps" by the naked eye. Dries glass like.
Required four passes to get up to the target "R" value I needed.

RickDelta

hot_rod said:

What is the r value of the wet, inside insulation? On a designed system either the engineer or the energy codes will dictate the r value required on boiler or DHW piping.

What is the r value of the wet, inside insulation?

I don't remember the ending "R" value ..... The focus was about temperature conduction, I only cared about the working copper surface temperature! .... and not about its "R" value to get there.
The manufacture guided me what to do to meet my requirements.


...... also, since the water (a corrosive fluid) never contacts the copper pipe walls ..... I would think the pipes would last at least 100 years!! .... probably a lot longer without pin holes or leaks.

This micro ceramic coating was an off shoot of the heat tiles technology used on the space shuttle.

farmwi

This insulating is quite interesting.

Could you post info about the ceramic coating product and the process of application in a tube? I can't visualize spraying inside a tube.

Thanks

dko

I don't see the point in using copper if you were going to make it so the media would never touch the copper.

RickDelta

dko said:

I don't see the point in using copper if you were going to make it so the media would never touch the copper.

Water pressure (PSI) containment strength, standard fittings,etc

RickDelta

farmwi said:

This insulating is quite interesting.

Could you post info about the ceramic coating product and the process of application in a tube? I can't visualize spraying inside a tube.

Thanks

CeramaTherm
Extreme-Performance Insulation Coating
Visit our dedicated CeramaTherm information site.
CeramaTherm is an extremely unique, ultimate performance, ceramic-based, epoxy sealer coating insulator. At the thickness of paint, it has a near-zero thermal transfer rate.

It is a corrosion and moisture protection coating. It is bright white, flexible, waterproof, and breathable. It is fire retardant and will stick to almost anything while remaining flexible and having the side benefit of 68% sound deadening.

https://ceramatherm.com/

RickDelta

@farmwi
I'm thinking an electrostatic spraying set-up might be best way to evenly coat the inside of a pipe.

GGross

That stuff is quite impressive. How did you apply it inside the pipe? I'm curious if you have a 10' stick of copper internally-insulated how it would take to being cut, could you even de-burr the pipe (or would need to?)?, and how it might take to applying solder fittings. If you are feeling adventurous you have an opportunity to test this out, I'm sure you have some left over!

Jamie Hall

I can readily see that there are some applications for which this stuff might be really good. For instance, reducing or eliminating the lagging required on turbocharger exhaust systems, or on really high temperature steam mains (we're talking 800 psi power systems here, folks, not 8 ounce hone...). Some areas in gas turbines. That sort of thing.

My question, though, is how much does this stuff cost and, therefore, the cost/benefit ratio relative to no insulation at all or various conventional approaches to insulation.

Anyone have that information?

dko

A nano version of this for smaller diameter pipe
https://www.blastone.com/product/conespray-internal-pipe-coating-tool/

GGross

@Jamie Hall
If you haven't checked out the link the OP posted you should https://ceramatherm.com/bg400-coating/ application guide and FAQ page are pretty interesting. looks like they sell the stuff in a 25 gallon kit or larger (full pallet shipment for 25 gallon kit) I couldn't find an exact price, but when I googled it there was a price shown of $10,312. Couldn't see where to click "buy" though

I think cost to buy the stuff and fabricate the finished pipe would be prohibitive, but it certainly has some use, and sees some use in industrial process piping. The material can be removed through "high abrasion" but it is stated to withstand 140mph hail balls and is used on some roofs apparently

Jamie Hall

How much?!? OK. 120 square feet per gallon that guide says. Where's a napkin... scribble scribble... let's suppose that it reduces the heat flow to 0 on a steam pipe. That would have been around 240 BTUh otherwise. OK. And suppose we are using oil as our fuel (why? becasue those are the numbers I have handy, that's why) So my coating will save me... scribble scribble... $0.002 per hour in fuel costs per square foot. My coating costs about $100 per square foot. It will take me about 60,000 hours of running to save the cost of the coating in fuel... 6 years of running 24/7/365.

As I say, I can easily see applications for it. But... at anything close to that price, insulating my steam or hot water pipes isn't one of them.

mattmia2

A lot cheaper to use paper and fiberglass to make the od you need to get the insulation thickness than 3x as much copper. Doing it with plastic pipes would change the way it behaves in a fire which may be a concern in many applications.

mattmia2

Not sure what the 0 thermal transfer is. If you move one molecule it is going to move the molecule next to it, some more than others, but it will have some nonzero transmittance value.

Jamie Hall

mattmia2 said:

Not sure what the 0 thermal transfer is. If you move one molecule it is going to move the molecule next to it, some more than others, but it will have some nonzero transmittance value.

It does. I was being generous to it in assuming 0...

mattmia2

I actually saw no claim of an insulating value. It is essentially epoxy with some stuff in it, it isn't going to be great unless you have a thick layer of it.

ChrisJ

mattmia2 said:

I actually saw no claim of an insulating value. It is essentially epoxy with some stuff in it, it isn't going to be great unless you have a thick layer of it.

It claims it's based on aerogel or similar, no?

The "aerospace grade" claim makes me immediately not interested though.

EdTheHeaterMan

OK I am going to run a 3/4" PEX line thru an unconditioned space and I will put 1/2" exterior insulation on the 50 ft run of tubing.

OR,

I could purchase a 1-1/2" copper pipe with interior insulation and to be sure that I don't mess up the connections I will use ProPress fittings to connect those pipes that only come in 10 ft sections. (because the process is to expensive to make a machine that will insulate a 60 ft coil or a 20 ft section of pipe. (and who wants to mess with a 60 FT coil of 1-1/2" copper anyway...) So I have the labor to make the 6 connections using 1-1/2 fittings.

That is a much more expensive piping job when you compare it to the PEX and some Armaflex® insulation. So I don't see it practical for the common boiler room or heating needs. The specialty stuff is another story.

I don't see it in the average residential boiler rooms any time soon.

dko

You can already buy preinsulated pex, even pre-sleeved pex rolls.

Jamie Hall

mattmia2 said:

I actually saw no claim of an insulating value. It is essentially epoxy with some stuff in it, it isn't going to be great unless you have a thick layer of it.

Actually, I'll buy the claim that it's an insulator, at least up to a point. It's an aerogel, and they are kind of fun things to play with -- at least theoretically. The basic idea being much the same as the various foam insulations we are familiar with, but taken to an extreme.

RickDelta

mattmia2 said:

Not sure what the 0 thermal transfer is. If you move one molecule it is going to move the molecule next to it, some more than others, but it will have some nonzero transmittance value.

The processes conduction and convection take place with the help of the molecules, they are not possible in vacuum since there is no existence of any molecules to transfer the heat.

Inside the nanoceramic "spheres" ..... only a vacuum exists!
Minor heat seepage would be in the binder (glue like) to attach the spheres to the pipe.