tank bolts: there's what you got here there's bronze and then there's cooper . . . what about brass?

archibald tuttle

so i've got fluidmaster 6102 kits carefully labeled as containing solid brass bolts, but they don't divulge what material the nuts are. the nuts don't seem to be magnetic but unlike the bolts which have no coating the nuts are silve rso they might be chrome plated brass or i suppose they could be stainless. color me retentive for wanting to know.

but actually it brings up another question which is that I tend to not use the nuts anyway and substitute 5/16 stainless flange nuts so i don't need to mess around with the washers. i'm wondering if experience of anyone longer than my own with such a combination suggests this defeats the purpose of not having dissimilar metals even though both are closs on the galvanic chart they still show as posing a corrosion risk.

any pedantic plumbers out there who want to weigh in . . . thanks, brian

EdTheHeaterMan

Just don't pee on then and they will last forever.

archibald tuttle

update: fluidmaster must not think brass and stainless steel are too incompatible as that the nuts they supply are stainless. just heard from a tech there.

archibald tuttle

EdTheHeaterMan said:

Just don't pee on then and they will last forever.

geez. i always pee in the tank. saves water, right . . . :-)

Intplm.

A non issue really. Installed correctly you can and should use what fluidmaster suggests.
If memory serves they are the originator of the none ball float ball cock decades ago, and have been flurishing ever since.
There is no need to make substitutions in materials ie. nuts to bolts.

ChrisJ

archibald tuttle said:

update: fluidmaster must not think brass and stainless steel are too incompatible as that the nuts they supply are stainless. just heard from a tech there.

I often use aluminum and stainless together, and they're very incompatible.

Sometimes, you have no choice. I've found using anti seize can help.

Mad Dog_2

I always grease them with heatproof plumber's grease...So u can get them off in 20 years.  I did that with my sewage ejector 24 years ago ..They came out like butter. Mad dog 🐕 

pecmsg

ChrisJ said:

update: fluidmaster must not think brass and stainless steel are too incompatible as that the nuts they supply are stainless. just heard from a tech there.

I often use aluminum and stainless together, and they're very incompatible. Sometimes, you have no choice. I've found using anti seize can help.

Do not use regular never seize on aluminum.

ChrisJ

pecmsg said:

ChrisJ said:

update: fluidmaster must not think brass and stainless steel are too incompatible as that the nuts they supply are stainless. just heard from a tech there.

I often use aluminum and stainless together, and they're very incompatible. Sometimes, you have no choice. I've found using anti seize can help.

Do not use regular never seize on aluminum.

This is what I use.

Mad Dog_2

dko

Reminds me of guys who order copper plated ceiling flanges to use with copper plated split rings, but use zinc plated threaded rod in between. Never understood the point of copper plated ceiling flanges aside from aesthetics.

psb75

I only use white nylon nuts and bolts (Sioux Chief?) on toilet bowl to flange attachment. So easy to trim to- length. And removes much worry about metal to porcelain interface. And you don't need any Anti-seize dope. And NO spinning johnny bolts anymore!
I wonder when mfgs. will begin using white nylon bolts for tank-to-bowl attachment?

Intplm.

psb75 said:

I only use white nylon nuts and bolts (Sioux Chief?) on toilet bowl to flange attachment. So easy to trim to- length. And removes much worry about metal to porcelain interface. And you don't need any Anti-seize dope. And NO spinning johnny bolts anymore!
I wonder when mfgs. will begin using white nylon bolts for tank-to-bowl attachment?

I like this but haven't the nerve to use them.
In reading this I was reminded that the foot print on most toilets are much bigger then they used to be.
Way back when they were much smaller and brass bolts might have been necessary.
@psb75
Thanks for posting. I think its time to give them a try.

MikeL_2

   I've been using the white plastic / nylon closet bolts for 5 years or more with great success.
   I do harvest & save brass nuts, bolts, & washers from older toilets......

SteamingatMohawk

When I install or replace tank to bowl screws, I completely cover the screw head and washer with bowl wax. This is a backup to the washer to prevent leakage if the joint gets jostled and moves, even the slightest. Since the wax won't dissolve in water and the water is cold and will not soften or melt the wax, it lasts a long time. Cheap cost for a backup. Just make sure the tank, washer and screw are dry before you apply it.

One ring will last "forever".

mattmia2

The flange nut instead of the washer means the nut can't slip on the washer as you tighten it so it has to slip on the rubber washer.

I never understood copper plated split rings or other plated accessories. it is still steel inside.

ChrisJ

mattmia2 said:

The flange nut instead of the washer means the nut can't slip on the washer as you tighten it so it has to slip on the rubber washer. I never understood copper plated split rings or other plated accessories. it is still steel inside.

Because the plating solves the issue of dissimilar metal touching with water etc no?

mattmia2

I don't see hot it would do anything other than move the junction between the copper and the steel by a couple thousandths.

ChrisJ

mattmia2 said:

I don't see hot it would do anything other than move the junction between the copper and the steel by a couple thousandths.

There's never any liquid between the steel and copper?  

mattmia2

only if the plating is perfect. when i've seen something like that in a place with a lot of moisture the plating seems to flake off or develop rusty pits. seems like some sort of plastic between the 2 is the way to go.

hot_rod

Seems like many nee toilets use composite or plastic bolts?
Or use brass bolts with plastic nuts?

ChrisJ

mattmia2 said:

only if the plating is perfect. when i've seen something like that in a place with a lot of moisture the plating seems to flake off or develop rusty pits. seems like some sort of plastic between the 2 is the way to go.

Well,
I mean......

I think that's the intent. Obviously it never actually works, or doesn't work forever.

That's why galvanizing / zinc plating is so good, it doesn't need to be perfect to work unlike paint and other platings.

ChrisJ

hot_rod said:

Seems like many nee toilets use composite or plastic bolts?
Or use brass bolts with plastic nuts?

The toilet I installed a few weeks ago used 5/16" solid brass bolts with metal nuts and plastic spacers under them that the caps snapped on.

I don't think the toilet came with any hardware as far as the flange was concerned. Only tank bolts and the plastic caps and their mating washer pieces for the flange bolts. The flange hardware was a totally separate item.

mattmia2

Are you sure the caps weren't for the flange, like they provided matching caps for the flange bolts but didn't provide the bolts?

ChrisJ

mattmia2 said:

Are you sure the caps weren't for the flange, like they provided matching caps for the flange bolts but didn't provide the bolts?

The plastic caps and washers are for the flange. There's no such beast on tank bolts.
Sorry, I could have worded that better.

hot_rod

ChrisJ said:

Are you sure the caps weren't for the flange, like they provided matching caps for the flange bolts but didn't provide the bolts?

The plastic caps and washers are for the flange. There's no such beast on tank bolts. Sorry, I could have worded that better.

Actually I was thinking about the seat bolts, those are mostly plastic

when you cut off flange bolts they are often brass plated steel

Is there an issue with tank bolts causing a problem? Worse case the washer rust over time.
brass tank bolts are best as they spend their life underwater😯

archibald tuttle

thanks to all for the robust discussion on mildly arcane topic.

@hot_rod actually i wonder if plastic bolts could be a thing for tanks. maybe too likely to break if people lean back on tank. i always have trouble with the chrome or brass plated steel. i'm with you on the solid brass. used to be you got brass nuts with the solid brass bolts. these days fluidmaster supplies stainless.

i've never had a problem with that combination. they are galvanically close but obviously it is not brass to brass. IIRC the stainless would be sacrificial and on some charts it shows a corrosion problem although the charts i saw are just yes/no rather than detailing the extent of the problem. so being the retentive guy i am i asked the question.

your point about plastic bolts at the flange is relevant but similar. I like a lot of strength in the flange mount and hold down of the toilet. there is actually a good deal of leverage against these bolts with side to side or front to back movement of the bowl albeit mostly they provide the fulcrum for rocking. partly i deal with this by leveling every install very carefully. I use toilets that have porcelain filler a little behind the plane of the porcelain horn for the flange extending out a little behind the external flange or skirt of the toilet bowl that sits on the floor. I use body filler between that porcelain filler and the floor to insure non-rocking install.

appropos of the recent thread on messing up stuff with purple primer, i look for filler that has finished color not particularly contrasting with the floor so i keep a couple colors on hand and I put down plastic shipping wrap so when i put the bowl on the floor (in a hurry) with the catalyzed but uncured filler in it I can quickly use my weight and the flange bolts and nuts to draw the bowl to the floor and not worry that excess squeezed out will mark the finish floor. I also take care to come straight down with the toilet and apply weight and cam action from the nuts at the center bringing the periphery down just as necessary to follow the bowl in compression sealing of the 'wax' between the horn and flange. If not careful, you can push down and expel filler from around the edges so that your leveled toilet still rocks. I have had really good success with this method although it can be cumbersome and the speed with which the filler hardens means every once and a while i make a mistake and have to unmount the toilet and remove the filler and start over with a fresh batch. (probably should start a thread about finding a catalyzed product like this that is a little slower hardening that could be marketed for this purpose. because virtually no floor is ever flat enough in my experience. )

I've been using either solid brass or stainless truss head 5/16 bolts for flange mounts (vs. the t-heads of varying material often supplied). And issue I have lately is that the flanges are underbuilt in my book and good bolts can overpower the keyhole slots in either all plastic or hybrid flanges. (in this area I'm warming to the resilient foam and rubber wax ring alternatives. there are several different form factors than can help depending on the depth of the flange compared to the finish floor. in general the most difficult mounts are, ironically the most normative where the flange itself is on top of the finished floor. many toilets leave little room between flange and bowl for such install and if the floor flange is thick this can be particularly problematic. Maybe I should go to toiletexpo instead of AHRexpo to figure out what the industry is doing about this :-)

@mattmia2 good point about my use of flange nuts vs. washers although because there are rubber washers on the inside of the tank under the truss heads of the tank bolts I don't worry as much about a little rubber scrunching under the flange nut that is external to the tank. that said haven't notice any serious displacement during the process. I do put a second set of rubbers washers on the outside where I double the rubber and use nuts to secure the bolts in the tank before then using a second set of nuts to secure the tank to the bowl. if i'm just out with a tank bolt set i will be out of rubber washers at that point and have done alright with flange not to porcelain at that join and letting the bolt tensions and foam tank gasket take up rock between tank and bowl without providing a lot of motion. in the old days, some toiles would come with a couple rubber or vinyl u guards to put on a raised porcelain lip meant to receive the tank or to be close enough to limit its range of movement once installed. i don't see those much anymore.

dko

What are you using for filler?

We use plaster of paris which dries white. you could add powdered paint or food coloring but usually they silicone around the front anyway.. so colored silicone?

archibald tuttle

@dko I use catalyzed automotive body filler. i have heard of plaster being used under toilets and showers. i use nonshrink grout under showers. in theory if all goes well you shouldn't water in either location but i'm always looking for a material that doesn't degrade when wet.

this filler is a good consistency and hangs into the bottom of the toilet when i flip it up to install and it doesn't absorb or dissolve over time with water. the biggest issue is it cures so quickly you have operate in high gear to get the toilet compressed carefully before it hardens. I'm going to chase some manufacturers and find out if there are 'slower' versions.

dko

Pretty penny though

https://www.evercoat.com/product-category/product-type/specialty-products/extended-work-time/

i'm sure there are plenty of other brands

archibald tuttle

@dko i found the same thing you did. evercoat is what came up for me also. just to confuse matters they have two lines, evercoat.com and evercoatbodyshop.com . i don't really know that the resin chemistries are signicantly different between the two. I think one line shows up in big box auto stores and ironically, the line not named for body shops is sold as high end body work.

this technical page has the compatabilty and working time of the slow hardener cream with various products.

the rage ultra xtra which is the most working time focused product both on the filler and catalyst product is a premium north of a buck a gallon. but what it is rational to spend on a product that is disappearing under a toiler makes me think I'll try the slow cream hardener with the z-grip optex product. that will set me back about half of the ultra xtra and essentially double the working time i'm used to. sometime if i'm feeling risque i might try one of the big box products, e.g. "garage pro body filler" which is yet a little cheaper and test a sample to see if it hardens with the slow cream hardener and how its working time compares to the z-grip.

while i agree there probalby are other brands that have slower curing solutions (3M maybe?), evercoat is the one that comes up and 3M and others do not.

brian

mattmia2

I'm pretty sure the cure time is related to the amount of hardener you add.(note that the hardener comes in numerous colors).