Plumbing archaeology

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

What are they now zinc?

They're using lead to re-build the roof at Notre Dame.

Shahrdad

When we dug up the basement in my 1897 house to replace the sewer lines, we found something similar to this and lots of thick lead pipes under the floor. It was great to see how plumbing used to be done and why "Plumber" contains the word plumb (=lead) in it.

Stet

We had alot of lead waste piping in the old summer cottages in the Marshfield, MA area. Cant tell you how much of this stuff we pulled out. It was my job, as a kid, to melt this stuff down along with the lead from old cast iron joints, and pour cakes of new lead to be used in caulked joints.

When I worked for Bailey Company in Scituate in the 70's, they got a call for a plugged sink in one a 5 bath cottage on the water. Beautiful home. They sent an apprentice down. He could plunge the drain into working, so he poured in a bottle of "Clobber". Waited 10 minutes and plunged again. Water went down. All Fixed! Or so he thought.

One of those head pot traps in the floor took the waste from the sink and the essex tub. What he did not know was that the clobber had eaten a hole on the bottom of the trap. Soon after, the clobber was coming through the living room ceiling and dripping on their grande piano. Let's just say, things went down hil from there.

sctronic

That’s awesome. They really had craftsmanship. It may not be pretty but it sure lasted a long time. Love seeing how it was done back in the day.

jep

Fascinating. All of the waste pipes and stacks in my 110 year old house are cast iron. While replacing a shower in the basement, I ended up discovering that the waste connection to the stack from the toilet was lead . . . First time I had ever seen a 3" lead pipe. It is about 18 or 24 inches (if I remember correctly) . . . and connects to the main cast iron waste line. I just left it. That was 20+ years ago. It continues to work . . . Lets hope it holds.

hyperbupkus

Lead is still allowed in jet fuel, so in part cutting back everywhere else lets bazillionaires fly over our heads in private jets and spray lead down on top of us

jesmed1

Here's how the floor ended up. New PVC waste pipes for the sink and toilet, and a new concrete and tile floor over it. Sorry to see the lead go, but now I have a few more artifacts in my "precious metals" collection!

SgtMaj

Tie the vent in or you’ll siphon the lavatory trap.

rberq

jesmed1 said:

psb75 said:

Lead is not "noble" but it sure lasts a long time.

Until a squirrel chews a hole in it. Lead flashing pic from my chimney ....

An old-timer carpenter/jack-of-all-trades told me he found a wasp nest below a hole in chimney flashing. Cleaned out the nest, replaced the flashing, and a year later the homeowner complained his leak was back. The wasps had chewed or otherwise burrowed through the lead to re-establish the nest.

skybolt_1

That's wild, I remember as a kid my dad removing an old lead drum trap out of the full bath in the house we grew up in. It was hooked up to the ancient cast-iron tub if I remember correctly. House was build in the 1820s if I recall correctly.

That old lead trap and all of the other lead pipes he pulled out sat in the corner of the garage (read: 1840's era barn redone as a garage) for the next 20 years until he died, and I brought it all down to the scrappers. Got a good amount of $$$ for the lead, it was several hundred dollars worth.

jesmed1

SgtMaj said:

Tie the vent in or you’ll siphon the lavatory trap.

The original vent pipe in the wall is gone and there's no way to resurrect/replace it, so we're going to put a Studor vent inside the vanity.

D107

It is mind boggling that the Romans were using basically the same technology two thousand years ago. But probably for both waste AND water? Lead poisoning must have been an issue there. Or was the supply coming via stone or cement aqueducts? (From Arles, southern France)

jesmed1

1000 years from now, will there be a museum with ancient PVC waste pipes?!

D107

Will PVC last that long?

jesmed1

D107 said:

Will PVC last that long?

Good question. This reference says it could last 300 years. Maybe longer under the right conditions.

https://trenchlesspedia.com/the-lifespan-and-dangers-of-old-piping-materials-vs-plastics-and-liners/2/3598

SgtMaj

If the new drains are going to be inspected, it won’t pass. You need to tie the vents in.

gunn308

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes said:

Marvelous find!  That’s the oldest plumbing I’ve ever seen here in the states. 

I've seen wood sewer lines dug up from under the streets up here in Maine.

herzigma

Second Church in West Newton has been struggling with their heat for months. Hopefully someone here who knows how these old systems work is on it! (and i could totally imagine the pic at the top being from their basement..)

bloombrewing

jesmed1 said:

mattmia2 said:

Never seen 2 fixtures share a drum trap. Also kind of fragile if you have to unclog it. Looks like they abandoned the supply a long time ago.

Yes, I cut out one of the abandoned supplies. That's the second pic. But the waste and vents were in use right up until we demo'd the floor 2 days ago.

OKay, I was wondering where the vents were. I do see what appears to be another side-outlet, on the closet flange, heading towards the wall, wondering what that connection was. Also, the wye is dead-ended with a screw-in plug. I guess they did not have a 45 and used the wye, because the drum trap would be in the way to chase a vent or soil stack up the wall.

ethicalpaul

D107 said:

It is mind boggling that the Romans were using basically the same technology two thousand years ago. But probably for both waste AND water? Lead poisoning must have been an issue there. Or was the supply coming via stone or cement aqueducts?

Not that mind boggling...we use lead pipes for supply all across the US today (about 9 million lead service lines are in use today). And yes lead poisoning was and is an issue.

Chapter 10 of Bill Bryson's great book is about this topic, specifically about this guy who is probably of some interest around here: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/one-man-two-deadly-substances-20th-century-180963269/

mattmia2

We used lead supply piping inside the house too although it was less common and most of it has been retrofitted. In fact you can see some abandoned in the crawlspace here.

JustinTheCarpenter

A few years ago I was dealing with a kitchen drain line in Philadelphia that was clogging & the drain guy had a hard time clearing it & keeping it cleared. 1 1/2 copper above the floor that was sweat to lead under the slab. When we remodeled the kitchen I had a laborer start digging up the drain to run new line to the break the rotorooter said was in the line. We found the rotted section that kept grabbing stuff about 2 feet dwon, then tried to dig to the main but had to stop at about 32" as the line was headed under the wall & it was hard to dig without possibly damaging the line. I made a swage from hardwood & cut the line off below the rotten section, swaged it to 1 1/2 pvc, ferncoed it, & buried it for the next guy.

gmcinnes

hyperbupkus said:

Lead is still allowed in jet fuel, so in part cutting back everywhere else lets bazillionaires fly over our heads in private jets and spray lead down on top of us

There's no lead in jet fuel. There is lead in avgas for piston engines. For once it's not the bazillionaires. It's your buddy with a Cessna.

jesmed1

SgtMaj said:

If the new drains are going to be inspected, it won’t pass. You need to tie the vents in.

Yes, thank you, you are correct. Just to be clear, I'm not the plumber. I'm the church project manager, and both I, the GC and the plumber are all aware this is not to code.

Yes, I'm aware that codes exist to protect everyone, including future owners/users of the building. I'm a big believer in codes. On all previous church projects I've managed (structural repairs and electrical upgrades) we have followed code strictly.

Unfortunately, in this case, there were no good options for replacing those vents. In fact, they had probably already been cut off inside the wall. There's a stained glass window above the bathroom, and there were no roof penetrations above. So the existing vents didn't even vent outside. And because of the stained glass window above, there was no way to run new vents up inside the wall to the roof above the stained glass.

So yes, in this case we did the best we could, which is not to code. As I mentioned, we'll put a Studor vent in the vanity to keep the sink trap from getting suctioned dry when the toilet is flushed.

mattmia2

JustinTheCarpenter said:

A few years ago I was dealing with a kitchen drain line in Philadelphia that was clogging & the drain guy had a hard time clearing it & keeping it cleared. 1 1/2 copper above the floor that was sweat to lead under the slab. When we remodeled the kitchen I had a laborer start digging up the drain to run new line to the break the rotorooter said was in the line. We found the rotted section that kept grabbing stuff about 2 feet dwon, then tried to dig to the main but had to stop at about 32" as the line was headed under the wall & it was hard to dig without possibly damaging the line. I made a swage from hardwood & cut the line off below the rotten section, swaged it to 1 1/2 pvc, ferncoed it, & buried it for the next guy.

Wiping it to copper or brass then adapting the brass would be the right way to do it. Hubless couplings claim that you can use them on lead but it would be dicey on very old lead.

mattmia2

jesmed1 said:

SgtMaj said:

If the new drains are going to be inspected, it won’t pass. You need to tie the vents in.

Yes, thank you, you are correct. Just to be clear, I'm not the plumber. I'm the church project manager, and both I, the GC and the plumber are all aware this is not to code.

Yes, I'm aware that codes exist to protect everyone, including future owners/users of the building. I'm a big believer in codes. On all previous church projects I've managed (structural repairs and electrical upgrades) we have followed code strictly.

Unfortunately, in this case, there were no good options for replacing those vents. In fact, they had probably already been cut off inside the wall. There's a stained glass window above the bathroom, and there were no roof penetrations above. So the existing vents didn't even vent outside. And because of the stained glass window above, there was no way to run new vents up inside the wall to the roof above the stained glass.

So yes, in this case we did the best we could, which is not to code. As I mentioned, we'll put a Studor vent in the vanity to keep the sink trap from getting suctioned dry when the toilet is flushed.

There may never have been a vent. The practices were different and the drum trap retains its seal better through limited siphoning than a j-bend(although the line you call out as a vent does look to be in the right place to be a vent in a 1920's way).

ROBERT W IVES

I took out a spider like that in Concord NH the difference was that the installer had wiped a water line with a valve into the side of the trap near the bottom to flush it out the trap.

ccstelmo

Hey! Don't throw that ol' drum trap away or melt it down before looking in the bottom of it! Some interesting things have ended up in the bottom of drum traps. You might be able to stop bein' a plumber. Spend some time in the Carribean. Live it up. Just saying .....

jesmed1

ccstelmo said:

Hey! Don't throw that ol' drum trap away or melt it down before looking in the bottom of it! Some interesting things have ended up in the bottom of drum traps. You might be able to stop bein' a plumber. Spend some time in the Carribean. Live it up. Just saying .....

LOL. The plumber grabbed it first. He didn't tell me about the diamond ring he found.

hyperbupkus

gmcinnes said:

There's no lead in jet fuel. There is lead in avgas for piston engines. For once it's not the bazillionaires. It's your buddy with a Cessna.

Hmmm... this phys.org article https://phys.org/news/2022-10-epa-tough-fuel-airplanes.html illustrates itself with prop planes and does say that there aren't lead additives in commercial jet fuels, but my impression was that military and less-regulated fuels of the type used in small private jets might contain lead-based additives.

Besides jet fuel, lead exposure can come from several sources, including leaded paint, tainted soil and industrial emissions from battery recycling or metals processing.

I'm not an aviation person, though, and it's good to understand the avgas distinction where it's still specifically tetraethyllead as was used in ground vehicle fuel that's being sprayed down on top of us. I think it's probably not so unlikely that bazillionaires are spending more time soaring among the clouds in leaded-fuel-powered aircraft, given that they also do stuff like launch sportscars into space, which none of my friends have done recently (And come to think of it none of my friends are anywhere near owning a Cessna, but that might be a generational thing)

BrassFinger

hyperbupkus said:

Hmmm... this phys.org article https://phys.org/news/2022-10-epa-tough-fuel-airplanes.html illustrates itself with prop planes and does say that there aren't lead additives in commercial jet fuels, but my impression was that military and less-regulated fuels of the type used in small private jets might contain lead-based additives.

The only leaded aviation fuel is known as "100LL" or 100 octane "low-lead". It is limited to (IIRC) 0.5 grams of lead per gallon. The previous fuel, 100 octane, was allowed up to 1.1 grams per gallon. WWII fuels such as 130 octane contained even more lead, up to 2.0 grams. The vast majority of general aviation aircraft can run on "96UL", or basically 100LL without the lead. My little Cessna 140, built in 1946, runs happily (and legally) on 87 octane pump gas (non-ethanol is mandatory) since the engine was originally certified on 73 octane gas. In reality, 100LL is not good for these low-compression engines as the lead builds up on the plugs and valves due to the low combustion temperatures (relatively).

Where things get more difficult is the for the small percentage of piston aviation engines that require the high octane fuels such as turbocharged, high performance, large radial engines on vintage transports, or ex-military aircraft (warbirds).

In the past the military has played with all sorts of fuels and additives. One was the "zip" fuels that were loaded with boron. Truly, these fuels left "chemtrails". There is a huge push going on for 20 plus years now to eliminate the lead in avgas. They are getting closer every day. However, even WITH the lead in avgas, the worldwide consumption is tiny compared to the amount of mogas (autofuel) burned every day. THAT was where the big lead reduction came from for the planet. Scary to think how much lead was dumped into the atmosphere during those years. Thank Thomas Midgely, who gave us tetraethyl lead and Freon, for poisoning us and killing the ozone layer.

Chris

LMacNevin

Awesome thread. Did you know that lead pipe was still allowed in the 2021 International Mechanical Code (IMC) for hydronic systems? It's been removed from the 2024 IMC.
PEX was invented in the mid-60s and put into commercial production in 1972 by both Wirsbo and REHAU, for heating applications. Most of those early systems are still in use today. A person skilled in using PEX can be called a "Pexologist" or a "Pexician". PVC DWV pipes should last 100 years, without external damage.

mattmia2

Tetraethyl lead is added to increase the octane rating cheaply and somewhat lubricate the valves. Neither of those things would be helpful in a jet engine and are likely to foul things. You are likely exposed to more lead from the dust by roads from about 50 years of adding lead to motor vehicle fuel.

realliveplumber

JustinTheCarpenter said:

A few years ago I was dealing with a kitchen drain line in Philadelphia that was clogging & the drain guy had a hard time clearing it & keeping it cleared. 1 1/2 copper above the floor that was sweat to lead under the slab. When we remodeled the kitchen I had a laborer start digging up the drain to run new line to the break the rotorooter said was in the line. We found the rotted section that kept grabbing stuff about 2 feet dwon, then tried to dig to the main but had to stop at about 32" as the line was headed under the wall & it was hard to dig without possibly damaging the line. I made a swage from hardwood & cut the line off below the rotten section, swaged it to 1 1/2 pvc, ferncoed it, & buried it for the next guy.

And you're proud of that?

You should be ashamed of yourself.

Charlie from wmass

Lead Oakum is still Massachusetts approved.

Kickstand55

Audels Plumbers Guide book #2 can help you work with lead pipes.
Have a look.