when to replace oil furnace shutoff solenoid ?

paulmars

Pressure held for 24 hours, then I removed gauge.

Suntec a2va-7116 says pressure will drop then hold when burner is shut off. "Cut off pressure could be less then 80%. The important operation is that it drops to some level and stops." "If pressure drops to zero the unit should be replaced."

So mine dropped from 100 to 63, then slowly continued to drop and was at 45 after 24 hours.

I asked Beckett and they said it should hold for 10 minutes.

Then they said that I should replace my pump. Ive asked twice and they wont explain why I should replace it.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

Paul 

EBEBRATT-Ed

What is the problem your having? Do you have a separate solenoid valve that pump does not have a solenoid.

EdTheHeaterMan

Inside the A2VA 7000 series fuel units is an adjustable pressure regulator. That regulator operates by closing a valve with a spring so no oil will flow out of the nozzle port. Think about this for a second, the oil tank is outside above ground, the fuel pump is in the basement the very last cycle of the winter season the burner stops and the oil is supposed to be shut off by that valve at the end of the spring. But you didn't know that there was a very small leak in that valve. 5 months go by and that small leak has dripped oil past the fuel pump into the nozzle line and that nozzle has dripped oil into the chamber for that whole time. Next thing you know it is October and you get chilly one evening and go over to the thermostat and turn on the oil heater. What do you think is going to happen to all that oil that has dripped for 5 months that is sitting in your combustion chamber?

I can tell you that Fire Chief McPherson from West Cape May NJ knows what will happen. You will be calling 911.

Back the that pressure regulator in the pump. When the motor turns that set of gears in the pump, it will move anywhere from 12 to 20 gallons per hour causing the pressure in the pump to push against that spring loaded valve. When it gets to the point where the spring can no longer hold the oil back (100 PSI for example) the valve opens and some of that 100 PSI oil goes into the nozzle. (75 GPH for example) but most of that oil is bypassed past the nozzle and back into the pump where it is returned to the inlet and strainer chamber of the pump. Or it could be blocked with a bypass plug and a return pipe back the the tank or tiger loop will take that extra oil out of the pump to be returned to be used later.

When the call for heat stops, the motor slows down gradually which reduced the amount of combustion air the fan will deliver to the combustion chamber. As that happens, the oil is still be leaving the nozzle at the 100 PSI pressure until the pressure regulator valve closes completely. That is why the start and stop of an oil burner is a little more smokey than when it is running at full speed. For a second or so there is less air but the same pressure of oil so the flame burns rich causing smoke to form in the chamber. No big deal because it is for such a short time, the amount of soot that may build up from that stopping and starting is minimal and will be removed at the next annual service.

To be sure the valve closed properly, the pump manufacturer indicates that the valve should close at 80% of the operating pressure. So 80 PSI on a 100 PSI burner setting. If you are operating at 145 PSI the you should cut off at about 118 PSI or higher.

If your pump cut off is lower than 80% (in your case it's about 60%) that is a sign that your valve is not closing completely and that pump should be taken out of service.

I hope this explains why Beckett is saying "Replace the Pump"

EdTheHeaterMan

If you have a pump with a bad pressure regulator valve BUT you have a working solenoid valve that will shut off the fuel from that pump then it does not matter if the valve in the pump does not close completely because the electric valve will do that job. As long as the pressure regulator portion of the valve is operating properly, and the solenoid valve is closing completely, then you can keep that pump in operation.

PS that is why I recommended the Clean Cut Pump earlier in this discussion. That electric solenoid valve in that pump is a better shut off. It stops the oil before the fan slows down and can keep the oil from flowing until the fan gats to full speed. That is why they are called CLEAN CUT. Also, those valves don't fail as ofter as pressure regulator pump cutoff valves fail.

For not much more $$$ you get a lot better pump.

EBEBRATT-Ed

In this day and age every burner should have a solenoid valve or a clean cut pump. Better starts and stop keep the burner head cleaner.

paulmars

Thank you. Since the suntec papers said my pump could shut off lower then 80 and it didnt really matter where, as long as it did shut off above zero, so I thought I was fine. Especially when it was still holding after 24 hours.

Ill get a new pump if that is what is needed and that does appear to be the case.

Can I online shop for this or should I be concerned about counterfeit product?

That cleancut does it also delay fuel at startup? What is that #26  in the diagram?

Thanks much,
Paul

paulmars

PS. My pump is higher then my tank. It is a long run and pulls up maybe about 9', then goes horizontal maybe about 25', then down about 4' to pump. 

EBEBRATT-Ed

@paulmars you should do a combustion test after changing the pump. Just replace it with the equivalent pump. Yes the clean cut will delay on start up and close immediately on shut down

paulmars

I found a leak in my low side oil supply line. Even if this fixes it, i think ill buy a backup pump. This one is 23 years old. Although i go thru only about 100 gallons of fuel a year. Alfter all I do have a long supply line run. Beckett wont help me with pump info, however suntec is very helpful. So, I think ill buy another a2va-7116(B). This one has served me well and I generally dont like supporting companies that dont support me (beckett). However if i get info that the beckett really is much better and info to clarify the valves on the one beckett wants me to use, then ill reconsider.

P

EBEBRATT-Ed

Beckett pump is probably made by suntec.

EdTheHeaterMan

This is the pump you want to get https://www.supplyhouse.com/Suntec-A2VA-3006B-Single-Stage-Oil-Pump-3450-RPM. It is made by Suntec and is has all the features of the Beckett pump without the Beckett name slapped on the side.

paulmars

Thanks

paulmars

Replaced oil filter fittings and tank fittings. Bleed the bubbles out as i always do. But then i remembered recently I saw on beckett site says bleed for 15 seconds with no bubbles. Ive never done that long. So, i tried that today. Every time i open the bleed valve it runs w\no bubbles for 13 seconds, then off & on  bubbles. Never more then 4 sec w\o bubbles.  Continues like that until i close valve to empty my container (20-30 seconds). Then when open again it runs w\o bubbles for 13 seconds and repeats bubbles as above. Did that 7 times w\heater on the whole time (never cycled off). 7th time tried a larger container and after about 45 sec w\bleed open, heater cycled off. 

Smoke kept varying from 2 to 5 between each bleed. Why no air bubbles for 13 sec each time? Is this a bad pump?

EBEBRATT-Ed

If your bleeding bubbles it's one of two things.

1. You have a restriction and a high vacuum and the oil is vaporizing or
2. You have a suction leak and are sucking air in.

EdTheHeaterMan

If you are getting a good stream of oil for 13 seconds, then a pocket of air makes its way to the fuel pump, then that is an indication of a small air leak in the suction line from the tank to the pump. If you have some hills and valleys in the fuel line from the tank to the pump, then flushing or purging the fuel will entrain the air from the high spots in the fuel piping. You should set up the burner to operate non-stop for the duration of the prime or purge. On newer primary controls you use the pump prime feature so the pump will run for 5 minutes non stop. on the older controls you place a jumper wire across the F F terminals to simulate a flame signal.

If you are operating for less that 1 minute and starting over, any air in the line will find its way back to a high spot in the fuel line while you set up for the next prime (of less than 1 minute).

You want at least 5 minutes of run time so you can see if oil will stop having air for 15 seconds after that first 13 second air event has stopped letting air out of the pump's prime port. If within a 4 minute priming cycle, you keep getting pockets of air every 13 seconds or less, then you need to stop. Put that oil back into the tank. then disconnect the fuel line at the tank and pressure test the fuel line and look for leaks. You don't need more than 5 or 10 PSI to test for leaks.... and you need to disconnect the fuel line from the fuel pump so you do not damage the pump seal.

If you can charge the fuel line with air pressure then look for leaks at the filter, fittings, valves or copper flares, that is much easier to find leaks. Oil leaking out of a leak is easier that finding a leak when the line is under a suction. If the leak is in a high spot, then air pressure will make soap bubble grow at the location of the leak.

paulmars

It ran non stop for over 30 minutes. Closing the bleed screw for 30 seconds or more, then opening it again each time got 13 seconds of no bubbles. This is w\o heater ever cycling off. Then after that as long as it stayed open it never again had more then 2 to 4 seconds w\o bubbles, before more bubbles. Until i close & opened bleed again.

paulmars

Last few test runs before i redid the supply line it was dripping and smoke test started at 6 or 7 and slowly reduced to 0-1 after 10 to 15 minutes non stop. After it cycled off and on, that started again at 6 or 7 smoke and reduced after 10 to 15 minutes. Now after line rebuilt, smoke is all over the place getting less and more and less again over 30 minutes with burner never cycling off 

paulmars

Smoke is so different then before and all that i did was replace supply line fittings & filter housing. Yes i bleed the housing before turning on heater. 

HVACNUT

@paulmars, are you an oil tech?

Did you ever mention what primary was being used when a Clean Cut Pump was recommended?

EdTheHeaterMan

paulmars said:

It ran non stop for over 30 minutes. Closing the bleed screw for 30 seconds or more, then opening it again each time got 13 seconds of no bubbles. This is w\o heater ever cycling off. Then after that as long as it stayed open it never again had more then 2 to 4 seconds w\o bubbles, before more bubbles. Until i close & opened bleed again.

That is an air leak then.

paulmars

EdTheHeaterMan said:

That is an air leak then.

Why would it go 13 sec w\no bubbles every time i close & open bleed? The equip to pressure ck line would cost more then a complete new line. I'm going to remove filter and fittings & put line in to bucket of fuel & see if i still get bubbles. 

EdTheHeaterMan

paulmars said:

Smoke is so different then before and all that i did was replace supply line fittings & filter housing. Yes i bleed the housing before turning on heater. 

I am not sure what bleeding the housing is ... And if you are operating for 30 minutes (4 minutes is long enough) to bleed the fuel lines until there is no air... How are you getting a smoke reading. There should be no flame when the bleed port is open. You must be closing the bleed port at some point.

To be clear in my understanding of what you are doing.
open bleed port
operate burner motor until you get 13 seconds of no air
then you get some air bubbles showing up in the fuel flow
then you get no air for a few seconds
then you get a trace of air bubbles for a few seconds
then you get no air for a few seconds
then you close the bleed port----- (this is where you are making a mistake)
Then after some time you open the bleed port and get the 13 seconds of no air
then you get some trace of bubbles
then you get no air for a few seconds
then you get a trace of air bubbles for a few seconds
and so on!


If this is correct, then you are stopping the air leak test when you close the bleed port.

You must leave the bleed port open for at least 2 minutes to determine if there is an air leak in the fuel line. .(...or 15 seconds of no air because that is how long it takes to get fuel from one end of a 60 foot coil of 3/8" OD tubing to the other end... and 60 ft is the longest length of tubing used for fuel lines for the most part.)

I believe that you have an air leak in the fuel line based on what you have said so far. and since you are getting 13 seconds of no air on initial opening of the bleed port, I will bet you that the air leak is near the tank.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Your pipe connections have to be tight woit clean fittings and pipe dope. You flares have to be perfectly smooth and cover the bevel on the flare fitting and made up Tite. The fuel filter needs new gaskets and made up tight.

EdTheHeaterMan

paulmars said:

EdTheHeaterMan said:

That is an air leak then.

Why would it go 13 sec w\no bubbles every time i close & open bleed? The equip to pressure ck line would cost more then a complete new line. I'm going to remove filter and fittings & put line in to bucket of fuel & see if i still get bubbles. 

And a complete new line with poorly flared ends would have the same problem. who made the flares on the existing line? If that same flaring tool and same process is completed on the new line, you may get the same result. A leaking flare fitting.

Do you havre a bicycle pump? Or a push pull pump for testing and cleaning out plugged fuel lines? Or access to a compressor? Or even a small hand held tire pump that comes in some emergency automobile kits. all you need is a few PSI and some fittings to plug either end of the fuel line to do the air test. this is a DIY air test for many folks.

EdTheHeaterMan

With a few simple to assemble fittings you can make up a pressure test rig that will work with a bicycle pump or any air compressor. Just don't over pressure the system you are testing. A few ounces per square inch pressure is often enough to get air bubbles on many leaks using a soap bubble solution.



My leak testing kit has several plugs and caps in different sizes and threads... and a tee to connect a low pressure gauge With the proper tools you can find your problem fast and easy.

paulmars

Yes i bleed air from new FUEL FILTER housing.

this is 3rd set of fittings, 3rd filter housing (w\new felt cartridge & new gasket), 3rd shutoff valve. All new everytime.

Everything was fine until i decided to add that shutoff, so I wouldn't have to bleed line after replacing felt cartridge.

Burner is burning fuel (i see flame thru view port) when i bleed the line at a2va-7116 bleed port.

Correct except not trace of bubbles, but a lot. Many for 4 to 6 sec, then none for 2 to 4, then many again for 4 to 6 sec over and over until my container is full,then i close bleed port to empty container. Then I open bleed port again & get 13 sec no bubbles. 

Bleed port closed anywhere from 20 sec to 3 minutes. Still 13 sec of no bubbles each time.

Several times I took smoke reading between bleeds.

I still dont understand why no bubbles for 13 sec. They were there when I closed port,but not when i opened it...not for 13 sec.

Im 38' of fuel line and im pulling 0.75gph.

I inspect every flare that i make. About 50% dont look perfect to me, so i cut off and make new. Those 50% might have been good. All my life ive been told im too picky in whatever I do.

Im going to remove all fittings by tank and put copper fuel line in bucket of fuel to see. Ill get line and a bigger container to bleed longer. All these years since 1986 ive only bleed until no bubbles for about 5 sec.

I have bike hand and ele car tire pumps. Dont know how to seal that to fuel line and once pressurized, how to measure leak. ok, id need low pressure gauge too.

Paul

EdTheHeaterMan

Easy to see it in your mind's eye. Look at the oil flowing from the air leak at point A. It takes 13 seconds to reach point B where the full gear set capacity of oil (About 20 GPH) is going into the priming bucket. Once you get the air there, it will continue until you stop it for some reason. (Closing the bleed port on the pump). If you continue to operate the pump and have a .75 GPH flame, then the fuel in the line from the tank to the burner slows to .75 GPH flow rate. At that slower rate the air bubbles are more buoyant and float back to the high spot. When you open the prime port again, you have clear fuel for 13 seconds until the air from the high spot and the leak reaches the prime port.


I believe this discussion has run out of answers for you. Suppose there is a leak that is letting air into the fuel line. Is that causing a problem? That problem might be that after the burner is idle for some time .. may be hours or may be days… the pump loses prime and the primary goes off on safety? Is that what you are trying to solve? Or is this just an exercise in perfection that is not really causing any real problem?

EdTheHeaterMan

Further inspection of all you information I have come up with this diagram.

Just about every fitting or pipe connection in this diagram will be a potential leak where air will go into the fuel line. There may not be any leaks where oil will drip out of the leaking fitting or connection.

If this diagram is close to accurate then any air that leaks into the fuel line will end up at the fuel line located in the yellow area of the illustration. That may have 13 seconds of "No AIR" fuel flow from the air location to the fuel pump prime outlet. Once the air reaches the prime port of the pump, then the leak will continue to feed air bubbles.

You must find the leak to solve your problem. And pressure is the only way I know of to find an air leak.

EdTheHeaterMan

This is a video for a proper flare for a refrigerant line. The reaming tool that he used was a needle nose pliers but there are other tools that work just as well. If you look at the polished inner surface of the flare, you can see that will make an excellent leak proof connection to the brass surface of the fitting.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itoro65YpZM&t=183s

paulmars

1st off i thank you for your continued help.... and patience.

I have standard flare tool and pipe cutter like his. My flares look like his, except not shiny which is caused by the eccentric flare tool. I dont understand need for needle nose plyers or triming with knife. Unless the cut left a large lip. Which to me would be a bad cut. Ive never had a lip that was visible after flaring. Im not saying im very experienced, but I think my flares are fine. I did replace them all to be sure that wasn't the problem. Maybe it still is.

I had considered the bubbles going back up that 4' section, but dismissed that because i never stoped the flow,but now I realize that i sped it up during bleed and slowed it down when i shut bleed port. That makes sense.

I dont understand "the pump loses prime and the primary goes off on safety".

My 1st problem was nozzle drip. Now i suspect that i still have that but now smoke tests are different.

Much of my pipe is inaccessible and was there when i bought this house in 1986. I have to think that leak is in my newest flares. Which i can eliminate with my bucket idea. If i still have leak with bucket. Ill need run entire new line which is not really a big deal. I wont try and follow the old pipe path. It is inaccessible and ive never even seen it.

Thanks again,
Paul

paulmars

Maybe ill get flare tool like his,but not from bezos.

paulmars

Ok after a lot of reading and videos it looks like most debur after cutting tube. So, ill do that from now on. I learn a lot from the internet, but some of my knowledge is old and was learned as a kid, like my flaring knowledge, which needed to be updated. About 1\3 of internet told me to use oil on either the threads or the flared tubing to help tightening\sealing. Im still not sure about that .

EBEBRATT-Ed

@paulmars

The new flaring tools do do a better job. Cut and ream the tubing and put the nut on and flare. Using some oil on the tubing or the flaring cone can help. You want the flare as large as possible and still be able to get the nut to slide over the flare. I sometimes make them too large and i will file the outside of the flare to get it to fit.

Try making the flare a little at a time . Tighten the flare a little then back off then tighten and back off do this until the flare is complete. Sometimes this helps.

EdTheHeaterMan

paulmars said:

1st off i thank you for your continued help.... and patience.

I have standard flare tool and pipe cutter like his. My flares look like his, except not shiny which is caused by the eccentric flare tool. I dont understand need for needle nose plyers or triming with knife. Unless the cut left a large lip. Which to me would be a bad cut. Ive never had a lip that was visible after flaring. Im not saying im very experienced, but I think my flares are fine. I did replace them all to be sure that wasn't the problem. Maybe it still is.

I had considered the bubbles going back up that 4' section, but dismissed that because i never stoped the flow,but now I realize that i sped it up during bleed and slowed it down when i shut bleed port. That makes sense.

I dont understand "the pump loses prime and the primary goes off on safety".

My 1st problem was nozzle drip. Now i suspect that i still have that but now smoke tests are different.

Much of my pipe is inaccessible and was there when i bought this house in 1986. I have to think that leak is in my newest flares. Which i can eliminate with my bucket idea. If i still have leak with bucket. Ill need run entire new line which is not really a big deal. I wont try and follow the old pipe path. It is inaccessible and ive never even seen it.

Thanks again,
Paul

EVERY TUBE CUT has a ridge that is bent in. It is the nature of the cutting tool design. You can't stop it .

In order to get a leak free flare, you MUST remove that tiny edge that is bent over in the tubing, otherwise the flare tool will just fold that edge over to the inside of the flare and make a sort of HEM on the flare. That HEM is not perfect and uniform around the entire edge of the flare and will not allow the flare to make an air tight seal against the brass fitting's machined edge.

Reaming is a must.



A is a cut only and not reamed tube
B is a cut and partially reamed. See the slight imperfection indicated by the green arrow. This may seal just fine, or it may leak.
C is a perfect flare
D illustrates a cut only and how the pushed in edge may get folded over and have an imperfect fold or HEM that will leak
E is a perfect flare and how the edge has no folds.
Use the file below to zoom in to see the differences in each tube

I dont understand need for needle nose plyers or triming with knife.

when you make the perfect cut and there is just the slightest imperfection or fold in the tube, your flare may look like C and it may work 50% of the time, and fail 50% of the time.

I have fixed many problem fuel systems with the use of an eccentric flare tool like in the video I posted. After others have spent hours doing what you are doing, I get the call and show up and look at the flare and just re-do the flare and the burner works fine. One fuel oil dealer i used to do service for had a Swiss Army Knife, and he used the small blade to cut the inner fold off of each cut, then he used the El-Cheapo flare tool and never had a problem. Others were not so lucky.

EdTheHeaterMan

I dont understand "the pump loses prime and the primary goes off on safety".

This indicates that you do not have a leak that is enough to cause a problem. If you don't know what this means then you are not experiencing it.

Forget the flaring, Forget the 13 seconds and then getting bubbles. If all you are trying to solve is a smoke issue, then you need to get the air adjustment and proper nozzle and proper pump pressure in order to get a zero smoke. If that is all you are experiencing is a smoker number issue, then your problem is not the oil pump, it is the burner fan, and air adjustment.

Have you checked the Z dimension on the nozzle to the end cone. There is a tool for that but you can measure it with a ruler, but you need to measure it from the firing end (inside the combustion chamber) which means that you may need to remove the burner from the chamber to make that measurement. Once you get it correct, then I would scratch it on the side of the burner where the nozzle line comes thru the burner housing.

paulmars

I always ck z when replace nozzle.

My oil line has a leak and it is not at the tank\filter area. Some of this line might be as old as the house (1952).

Im replacing the entire line. Do i need to use copper pipe? 38' costs more then my car is worth. Not really, but close.

Can someone recommend one of those flaring tools for under 100$. Im not having a problem with my flares, but...

What is the best filter to use? Im not sure I like this F25.

EdTheHeaterMan

This one appears to work like the Rigid and Yellow Jacket that is priced over $100
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Navac-NTF66-1-4-to-3-4-OD-Flaring-Tool-1-4-5-16-3-8-1-2-5-8-3-4
My go to oil filter for new equipment installation:
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Westwood-Products-F100-2-Complete-Spin-on-Filter-w-Bracket-Kit-Epoxy-Inside-10-Micron
The replacement element
\https://www.supplyhouse.com/Westwood-Products-F100-10-Replacement-Spin-On-Element-w-O-Ring-Epoxy-Inside-10-Micron

paulmars

Copper tubing labeled for refrigerant is the most economical. Some label it as M and I think that would be thick enough.

paulmars

Ive did more research. ACR tubing is type L thickness and will be fine. I think type M is also ok to use. For some reason ACR labeled is often cheaper them L & M labeled copper tubing. Some sites do say ACR is M, which it aint 

EdTheHeaterMan

Plumbers buy L and M copper that is not dehydrated and sealed. That may come in 60 ft lengths. 10 more feet will cost more. Refrigeration and air conditioner installers use ACR because that is the designation for the refrigerant tubing that is dehydrated and sealed because refrigerant does not work well with moisture. The thickness may vary on some ACR tubing from different line set manufacturers but for the most part ACR is usually thicker and may even have a K thickness rating. For fuel oil piping, any of the tubing is acceptable since there is very low pressure on those pipes!

paulmars

Still bubbles. I started new thread cuz this one is long and well i just wanted too. It titled Air in oil line oil heater