shut off valves turn but don't work

DGutkin

I've lived in buildings in New York with steam radiators for years but only started to learn how they work recently. Please forgive my ignorance and thanks for your help.

My 2nd floor apartment in a 66 unit building that has steam heat. I have 5 convector radiators (I think they are convectors -- I can add pictures if useful). I'd like to be able to turn off individual radiators from time to time since the apartment is often too hot during the winter but none of the shut off valves seem to work. They turn -- they just don't do anything. Even when they are fully shut off the radiators emit heat -- maybe a little less than when on but I'm not even sure about that.

One of shut off valves was replaced a couple years ago. I asked the plumber about this issue and he said that it is just a feature of radiators in old buildings and that all he can do is disconnect the radiator entirely . At the time I just took him at his word. But I've recently been learning more about steam heat and I haven't come across this explanation. Does this make sense -- that the on/off valves might just not work and there's nothing that can be done?

I know that I could adjust the system with different air valves so I might look into that. One additional question about that: the one that I recently replaced (it cracked) is 1/4" straight. I used a Maid-o-Mist Jacobus because that's what was there and what I could find for that size straight. I know that many people are unimpressed with Maid-o-Mist quality (the plastic inside) but Gortons all seem to be 1/8" straight. Are 1/4"-1/8" conversions possible and advisable?

Thanks again!
-David

pecmsg

Opening a window is better anyway!

EdTheHeaterMan

pecmsg said:

Opening a window is better anyway!

Always a wealth of the knowledge about the obvious.

Depending on the age and condition of the valve, it may not work. The guts may have lost the ability to close. and there are several types of steam valves. some are like a water faucet that you must turn several rotations befor you getthe valve stem screwed all the way closed. Other valves may have a 90° turn to shut them off and still others may have a 180° turn to close them completely.

my guess is that your valve may not work at all and that would be something that the maintenance people would need to attend to. There is another thing about some steam systems, depending on the design, you may not be able to throttle the valve to get a little less heat. You may need to close the valve completely or open the valve completely for the system to operate properly. No 1/2 way open valves. They cause problems on some system designs.

DGutkin

Ha, thanks pecmsg. I guess that is the time-tested custom and it does work! But I'd still like to understand why these radiators can't be turned off.

DGutkin

Thanks, Ed. I was told that on this system the valves should indeed be all the way open or closed -- no half way. I'm okay with closing some of them all the way (there's 2 convectors in the big rooms so turning off one might work) but again that doesn't seem to work. I imagine you are right that it is something about the "guts" losing the ability to turn. I assumed that was something that I could have fixed but the one person who looked at it suggested otherwise.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Gortons are available in angle styles. But most like an adjustable vent. Can you post a couple of rad pictures?

How many pipes are connected to each radiator? If one pipe you can shut or open the rad valve... either on or off, you cannot partially close them you will get water hammer.

If two pipe steam (2 pipes/radiator) you can throttle the supply valve

dko

You can add a mini ball valve before the vent if this is one pipe steam



No air out = no steam in

JUGHNE

Pictures of your heaters showing both ends please....covers off if any.

realliveplumber

Drape a heavy cloth or blanket over the radiators you want less heat out of.

You could cover a portion of it if you need a little heat out of it.

KC_Jones

Not that it helps, but I feel it’s important for proper information to be out there.

They shouldn’t need to be turned off, whoever is running the building has chosen to ignore the system and/or run it incorrectly. That is the actual problem here.

DGutkin

Thanks, everyone. I'm attaching pictures -- 1 pipe system, I think? The suggestion to add mini ball valve before the vent makes a lot of sense. I'm still curious why the shut off valves themselves (including the new one) don't work but glad to find a work around. And point taken, KC, that it shouldn't be so hot in the first place. I wonder whether the air valves in use have too large an orifice -- or perhaps they are just running the system badly...

DGutkin

reggi

Anyway... It looks fully opened in the first picture... 

DGutkin

Yeah, since it doesn't seem to make any difference whether it is open or closed I chose to just leave it open.

Larry Weingarten

Hi, I see wrench marks on the newish-looking valve. Any chance someone removed the internals?

Yours, Larry

reggi

Larry Weingarten said:

Hi, I see wrench marks on the newish-looking valve. Any chance someone removed the internals? Yours, Larry

I'd say their plumber does this all the time... Disconnect the spud from the radiator, get a prybar to lift the radiator high enough to take the top off the valve and replace it's innards with a stem and new handle puts it back together and covers up the evidence with Great Stuff Black...it even looks like he left the tag on the stem for evidence he changed it...
Just Speculation 

DGutkin

Thanks, Larry and reggi. That does seem possible. I suppose I'll investigate a bit more -- and probably get a new plumber in the future.

dko

Those Everflow valves are the cheaper ones that uses NBR seats (though they do sell a better version as well). Guarantee the rubber NBR seat has deteriorated. NBR comes in many different grades, but you'll get bottom of the barrel rubber with bottom of the barrel radiator valves.

I have customers come in to replace these valves all the time and when asked it's only been in use a year or two. The seat becomes so soft and it paints my finger black just rubbing it.

The better valves use EPDM or PTFE seats, and are usually not much more money (within the realm of imports). Wish no one ever stocked or sold those garbage NBR seated valves. There isn't even much of a cost difference. But some shops only look at price and not compare with quality. Goes for the installers as well I guess, but I believe for the most part none of them even look at the seat material when buying.

dko

Also, wrong valve for handle positioning

if in the future it is replaced it should be a convector valve with a nipple, not an angle radiator valve.




As for the nyc apartment temperature issues, it's very difficult to balance every tenant's personal preferences with some systems. I'll bet there's a tenant with similar temps as the OP, but is perfectly content. I have a lady from the Philippines in my office who yells at me when I turn off the heat. I'm burning up and sweating, but for her it was the perfect temperature.

Intplm.

@DGutkin
The Honeywell company makes a thermostatic valve that may fix all of your problems?
Its called a one pipe steam thermostatic valve for one pipe steam.
Do a google search.

And I too believe that the washer or seat in your pictured valve has been modified as explained above, hence the wrench marks and the explanations from the person who has made those wrench marks.

dko

Danfoss does as well, which is the most common one installed in NYC.
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Danfoss-013G0140-Thermostatic-Rad-Valve-w-Vac-Breaker-1-Pipe-Steam-5551000-p

But it's always a callback because the installer fails to educate that it does not have a complete shut-off.
The lowest setting still allows some air to pass to maintain a minimum temperature. Nor does anyone ever read the manual.

TwoTones

I have the same convectors, a little aluminum foil and block off a portion of the fins.   You can tweak it to your comfort level.  Regularly turning those valves on and off is generally going to cause a problem somewhere along the way… 

TwoTones

It’s also good that you understand that the valves need to be either completely open or closed.  The side headers of those convectors are a thinner steel  and if any water collects in them, they will easily rot out and leak…. Had to replace a large one recently and had to improvise a replacement with a different type of convector…