Wireless Temperature Sensor causing insufficient heating

Songbird_2023

I reside in an apartment building.  Couple of years ago they installed a wireless temperature sensor in all units next to the thermostat (about 4 or 5 inches away).  The wireless temperature sensor installed is a small plastic device, half the size of a cell phone, and was stuck to the wall with silicone.  It doesn't mention the temperature readings on the front.  Ever since it's been put on the wall, it seems to have completely disrupted the effectivity of the thermostat and my unit does not feel warm enough.  Will changing the location of the temperature sensor allow more heating in the unit?   My thermostat used to be working very well and the unit felt comfortably warm, until this temp sensor was put on the wall close to it.  

Any suggestions / advice would be much appreciated.

pecmsg

What is the act temperature inside the apartment?

Songbird_2023

I have set the thermostat temp at full, which is 25C.

pecmsg

pecmsg said:

What is the act temperature inside the apartment?

IS

Songbird_2023

What do you exactly mean by "act temperature" ?

Songbird_2023

As I mentioned, this sensor doesn't display the temperature readings ..... neither do I have a professional room thermometer to show that.

pecmsg

Do you own a thermometer?

HVACNUT

The thermostat doesn't display the room temperature?
I'm thinking your thermostat is a "dummy" and the real thermostat is in the equipment room. 
Why put a sensor 4 to 5 inches away from the thermostat? And wireless. 
Sorry to break it to you, if that is the case. Is there a Super or maintenance person you could ask.

Songbird_2023

I have asked them and complained to them 3 or 4 times. They also came to my unit to check. They said there's nothing wrong and that's the way it works. I don't see any purpose why it to be a dummy .. in that case they would simply install it in the equipment room and inform us accordingly. But they sent us a written message prior to it, and then the guy from the company came in to put it up in every unit. It took him barely a minute to stick it to the wall. I know temp sensors not displaying the temperature are rare but there are some brands that don't .. like the image attached.

Songbird_2023

pecmsg said:

Do you own a thermometer?

I do have a room thermometer with my clock that runs on battery. But I am sure it's not well calibrated. At the moment it's showing 23C but I can feel it's not 23C in my unit right now. It's lower. Since yesterday the weather got cooler hitting 0C. A few days earlier when the weather temp was around 5C or 6C, the room temp on the clock showed 25C. I can bet even that was wrong. It was lower than 25C.

Jamie Hall

May I humbly point out that a wi-fi device -- any wi-fi device -- needs a power supply. You can't just stick it on the wall and walk away. I'm thinking I agree with @HVACNUT

Songbird_2023

I hear some people say that if the sensor is fixed on the wall farther from the thermostat and closer to the windows or balcony door where it's cooler, the sensor may react slower enabling the thermostat giving out more heat.

I've also heard that in such a system the cables giving out heat are on the ceiling. So, if the sensor is placed lower .. approximately 3 feet above the floor on the wall, it might make the unit warmer. At present the sensor is at the same level on the wall as the thermostat .. about 5 feet above the floor.

jesmed1

It's probably something like this wireless thermometer, but probably with multiple sensors for a multi-unit building. We use them in our 4-unit condo building because the 2 upstairs units don't have thermostats or any heating controls. The 2 downstairs units have the thermostats, and we keep the receivers for the upstairs sensors next to the downstairs thermostats so we can see at a glance what the upstairs temps are and try to keep the heat balanced by adjusting radiator valves as needed.

https://www.amazon.com/Taylor-Precision-Products-Wireless-Thermometer/dp/B01ALO555E/ref=sr_1_26?crid=1NMNH2X9GF9G5&keywords=wireless+thermometer&qid=1704680398&sprefix=wireless+thermometer,aps,137&sr=8-26&th=1

The sensors are not "WiFi" , they simply send out a data "chirp" every 10 seconds or so to the receiver, so they can run on one or two AA batteries for about a year.

So I don't doubt your wireless sensor is indeed sending temperature data to a remote sensor. And yes, if if you put the sensor in a cold place, whoever is reading the remote sensor will "see" a lower temperature reported in your unit.

The real question is whether your old thermostat controls anything. I doubt it. That's why they put the remote sensor in your unit, to see what the effect of their "new" centralized heating control system is and how well it's managing the temperature in your unit. And that's why you're feeling a difference in heat.

Of course, they didn't tell any of the residents that their thermostats no longer controlled anything, just to give you the ongoing illusion that you still have some control.

Songbird_2023

Jamie Hall said:

May I humbly point out that a wi-fi device -- any wi-fi device -- needs a power supply. You can't just stick it on the wall and walk away. I'm thinking I agree with @HVACNUT

There is certainly no power supply in the sensor through any wiring. Absolutely sure about that. It might be running on a battery. When the management informed us that they would be putting a temp sensor in the units, they also requested the residents as far as possible not to shift its location. So obviously it's not a dummy otherwise what's the point suggesting not to shift it? And so I thought changing the location might help to make the unit surroundings warmer.

Here is the picture of my thermostat and sensor next to it. As you can see it's just a little white plastic box with covered openings at the corner. These openings are on the other side as well.

HVACNUT

Songbird_2023  

You've been duped. 
No way that thermostat is connected to that sensor. They're controlling your temperature remotely. Maybe they installed Outdoor Reset on the boiler(s) and the output is only what's "needed", but they should've been forthcoming, and not try to shade you.

Chris_L

That sensor looks like this one: https://www.ebay.com/itm/173918333879 . Not wifi, ZigBee powered with a button battery.

As others have said, that thermostat isn't doing anything. But I am surprised it doesn't have a thermometer built into it. I don't think I've ever seen one in a home that doesn't show the actual temperature as well as the set point.

Songbird_2023

Well yes .. the thermostat is like non-functional .. although they didn't tell us, it's obvious. Jesmed1 and HAVACNUT sound right, the wireless sensor is obviously sending a message to a remote sensor. So my question is, if I move the sensor in a cold location and that remotely reports a lower temperature in my unit, will the response from the remote sensor cause an increase in my unit temperature or any difference for the better?

Regarding the battery, this device has been running for a year. How will I know when the battery dies because the sensor in my unit has no indicators?

HVACNUT

Sure you can move it. Coldest area, down low, or even on the floor until you find the sweet spot.

ethicalpaul

Try putting a shelf above the sensor like this:

jesmed1

Songbird_2023 said:

So my question is, if I move the sensor in a cold location and that remotely reports a lower temperature in my unit, will the response from the remote sensor cause an increase in my unit temperature or any difference for the better?

This is the perfect opportunity for a little experimenting. Try some different locations and see if it makes any difference. Any windowsill is likely to be a cold spot, as long as there's no radiator directly underneath.

The receiver is probably doing some sort of averaging of multiple transmitters from multiple units, so the more units there are in your building, the less the effect that varying signals from any one transmitter is likely to have. So you may or may not see any difference in how much heat you actually get.

As for battery life, there's no way for you to know. One assumes that the landlord/building super is conscientious enough to notice when one sensor stops transmitting and comes and installs a new battery. But if you care, you could replace the battery yourself once a year, and that should be enough.

EBEBRATT-Ed

The old thermostat looks like a line voltage electric heat stat to me. At one point th OP mentions "ceiling heating cables.

Management may have jumped out the old stat and are using the new sensors to operate contactors to control the heat.

Songbird_2023

ethicalpaul said:

Try putting a shelf above the sensor like this:

This doesn't seem like a good idea .. ice gradually melts and droplets of water can fall on the devices and also on the floor where I have my surge protector connected to my laptop at the side. I think shifting the damn sensor to a cooler place would be wiser. Let's see how much it helps.

Songbird_2023

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

The old thermostat looks like a line voltage electric heat stat to me. At one point th OP mentions "ceiling heating cables.

Management may have jumped out the old stat and are using the new sensors to operate contactors to control the heat.

O yes, this thermostat is certainly very old. I have been in this unit since past 14 years, and it was there since before I came. But before the management played this nasty game, it was working very efficiently, giving plenty of heat.

And prior to sticking the sensor on the wall, they never told us to remove the thermostat nor did I have the slightest idea that this new system meant a non-functional thermostat.

Songbird_2023

HVACNUT said:

Sure you can move it. Coldest area, down low, or even on the floor until you find the sweet spot.

Yes .. thanks HVACNUT.

Songbird_2023

Chris_L said:

That sensor looks like this one: https://www.ebay.com/itm/173918333879 . Not wifi, ZigBee powered with a button battery.

As others have said, that thermostat isn't doing anything. But I am surprised it doesn't have a thermometer built into it. I don't think I've ever seen one in a home that doesn't show the actual temperature as well as the set point.

Yeah the sensor is very similar to the one in that link. If you look closely, the thermostat though old, it does have temperature settings marked on it and a knob to select the desired setting. It's the sensor that doesn't display anything at all .. just a little white plastic box. Apparently they purposely chose this type of sensor because they didn't want the residents to know the temperature in their respective units, although it's our entitlement to know it. The management knew it would cause insufficient heating .. and that's what they wanted because their only purpose is to cut cost. This kind of sensor would be okay in common elements like the lobby or hallway, but certainly not inside the units.

Songbird_2023

jesmed1 said:

Songbird_2023 said:

So my question is, if I move the sensor in a cold location and that remotely reports a lower temperature in my unit, will the response from the remote sensor cause an increase in my unit temperature or any difference for the better?

This is the perfect opportunity for a little experimenting. Try some different locations and see if it makes any difference. Any windowsill is likely to be a cold spot, as long as there's no radiator directly underneath.

The receiver is probably doing some sort of averaging of multiple transmitters from multiple units, so the more units there are in your building, the less the effect that varying signals from any one transmitter is likely to have. So you may or may not see any difference in how much heat you actually get.

As for battery life, there's no way for you to know. One assumes that the landlord/building super is conscientious enough to notice when one sensor stops transmitting and comes and installs a new battery. But if you care, you could replace the battery yourself once a year, and that should be enough.

Thanks very much jesmed1. All the info you provided was very helpful ... finally I got some answers. I don't know why managements do such things.

Songbird_2023

Btw, forgot to mention .. I have 2 thermostats in my unit. The one in the pic next to the sensor is in the living room. The other one is in the bedroom. There is no sensor there but that thermostat is also similarly not responding.

HVACNUT

ethicalpaul said:

Try putting a shelf above the sensor like this:

I was gonna say toss it in the fridge, but the moisture might wreak havoc on the board.

HVACNUT

@Songbird_2023, it's a shame they weren't upfront with you about this. IDK what type of apartment you're in, single, small building, complex?
If it was a complete system replacement or upgrade and Outdoor Reset was added, you might never get the temperature you desire. 
Outdoor Reset is basically a temperature sensor located outside that regulates boiler water temperature inside. 
Management (or whomever) could have indoor set to 68° when you want 72°.
Even at the real thermostat your sensor is connected to, they can set your apartment to any temperature they want.
I know it seems like I'm "twisting the knife", but your problem might not be solved. Ask around. Any other tenants you could talk to?

Songbird_2023

@HVACNUT .. yes truly a shame they were outright dishonest. But not too surprising as this management has since long been known for corruption (if I may use that term) where cutting cost has been their top priority regardless of the inconvenience that causes to us.

This place is a highrise condo having 30 floors. Mine is a 1 bedroom unit in this building. Though I've been here for 14 years, I don't know too many other residents, but I'm trying to find a few whom I can speak to, if they have taken any steps to improve the situation. As I was told, cables providing heat are in the ceiling which might be true. When the old system was running until 2022, my floor felt comfortably warm. That could be because of the effective heating in the unit below mine. And I'm sure the unit above mine felt their floor warm too as there was sufficient heating in my unit. Since the last nearly 2 years after the change, my floor often feels icy cold. I would think that's because the unit below is probably just as cool as mine.

Also makes me wonder, if the indoor pre-set temperature by the management is so rigidly unchangeable no matter what steps the residents take inside their unit, then why at all have the sensor in the unit, let alone the thermostat ?? In that case both these devices I have here are totally purposeless.

I reside in Canada. According to the rules of the municipality, landlords (in my case the management) are required to provide minimal temperature of 21C between October and May. When outside temperatures dip well below freezing, they are expected to make it higher. Though I don't have a room thermometer, I am certain at the moment the indoor temp of my unit is not 21C. Perhaps I also need to call the City inspectors to check .. because what's happening isn't fair.

Nonetheless I will also try experimenting by changing the location of the sensor. I will keep it close to the balcony glass door which is the coolest spot inside here. Instead of sticking it in the wall, I would prefer keeping it on a table about 2 or 3 feet above the floor.

Moreover, would a portable electric space heater help? There is a presumption that the warmth of space heaters stimulates the sensor and it might lower the heat in the room. Any idea if this is correct?

jesmed1

Songbird_2023 said:

Moreover, would a portable electric space heater help? There is a presumption that the warmth of space heaters stimulates the sensor and it might lower the heat in the room. Any idea if this is correct?

It all depends on whether the heating system in the building is using your sensor as an input to whatever is controlling the heating system, or it's merely providing data that might, say, simply notify the landlord when the temperature drops below a certain level.

You could experiment by simply removing the battery from the sensor and seeing if it makes any difference at all in the temperature of your unit. (Get yourself a simple digital thermometer first so you can record the daily indoor temps.) If you don't see any difference with no battery in the sensor, you know that, for all practical purposes, it's not controlling the amount of heat that reaches your unit.

If that's the case, then you can use an electric space heater without worrying about unduly influencing the sensor. You'll be paying for the electricity, but in a small apartment, a small amount of electric heat can make a big difference in comfort.

ethicalpaul

Get yourself a thermometer and start logging it

Songbird_2023

Thanks again jesmed and ethicalpaul. I'll have to find out what kind of room thermometer would be reliable. A lot of them aren't. I purchased one from Amazon 6 months ago. It was apparently not calibrated correctly and was definitely showing the wrong temp, around 25C while I was freezing. After couple of months it stopped working altogether. There's an indoor thermometer in my clock which too is rigidly standardized in its correlation .. always shows 24C in winter and 26C in summer. Doubtful if that reading will change even if it's placed inside the fridge!

bburd

I purchased an industrial grade, certified room thermometer / hygrometer from Amazon, the brand is SMARTRO. It wasn't much more expensive than the consumer grade ones. 

jesmed1

I've been using this $10 indoor/outdoor wireless thermometer since 2018. It's been very accurate, and it comes with a remote sensor that I put in the upstairs condo unit so I know they're getting enough heat upstairs.

Another nice feature is it stores the max and min temps until you reset the memory, so you can check the extremes that were recorded when you were away, sleeping, etc.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01ALO555E/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1

Songbird_2023

bburd said:

I purchased an industrial grade, certified room thermometer / hygrometer from Amazon, the brand is SMARTRO. It wasn't much more expensive than the consumer grade ones. 

Thanks for mentioning the brand. I'll make a note and remember it, and look for it at Amazon.

Has it been working accurately? Industrial grade should be better.

There's another type of room thermometer shaped somewhat like a hair dryer and you need to point up at the ceiling to get the temperature reading. These management guys here use that.

Songbird_2023

jesmed1 said:

I've been using this $10 indoor/outdoor wireless thermometer since 2018. It's been very accurate, and it comes with a remote sensor that I put in the upstairs condo unit so I know they're getting enough heat upstairs.

Another nice feature is it stores the max and min temps until you reset the memory, so you can check the extremes that were recorded when you were away, sleeping, etc.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01ALO555E/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1

The one I had cost $18 and had no options for setting or resetting,, though I don't mind paying a bit more if the item is good.

What is the brand of this thermometer ?

bburd

Songbird_2023 said:

I purchased an industrial grade, certified room thermometer / hygrometer from Amazon, the brand is SMARTRO. It wasn't much more expensive than the consumer grade ones. 

Thanks for mentioning the brand. I'll make a note and remember it, and look for it at Amazon. Has it been working accurately? Industrial grade should be better.  

I believe it has, yes.

HVACNUT

Songbird_2023 said:

There's another type of room thermometer shaped somewhat like a hair dryer and you need to point up at the ceiling to get the temperature reading. These management guys here use that.

You're probably thinking of an infrared laser thermometer. It reads surface temperatures, not air directly. It'd be good if you wanted to find the cold spots. Around windows and baseboard, etc. Maybe you could do some air sealing. They're also good for freaking out cats.

jesmed1

Mine is a Taylor indoor/outdoor, model #1730.

Songbird_2023

jesmed1 said:

Mine is a Taylor indoor/outdoor, model #1730.

Yeah, I just noticed you had already given the link ..