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Can you use type M copper pipe?

bender1227
bender1227 Member Posts: 50
Can you use type m pipe in NJ when hooking up the hot and cold water lines into a boiler? If there any real difference between type m and type l?

Comments

  • realliveplumber
    realliveplumber Member Posts: 354
    Yes, M is approved in NJ. For potable and hydronic.

    The wall thickness is the difference. L has a thicker wall than M.
    ScottSecor
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 6,027
    Yes, M is approved in NJ. For potable and hydronic. The wall thickness is the difference. L has a thicker wall than M.
    NJ allows M copper for domestic?
  • dko
    dko Member Posts: 668
    edited January 3
    HVACNUT said:



    Yes, M is approved in NJ. For potable and hydronic.

    The wall thickness is the difference. L has a thicker wall than M.

    NJ allows M copper for domestic?

    According to their 2021 NSPC
    https://epubs.iapmo.org/NSPC/NJ2021/

    yes, and looks to have always been allowed in NJ even in prior code adoptions.



    But will say, I have plenty of NJ plumbers and they still only buy type L pipe.
    HVACNUT
  • realliveplumber
    realliveplumber Member Posts: 354
    Yes, no problem with using M. Its approved for underground as well.

    With municipal water in Southern NJ, we just dont have problems with it.

    And we can solder a joint and bury it.

    And we can propress a joint and bury it.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,121

    Yes, no problem with using M. Its approved for underground as well.

    With municipal water in Southern NJ, we just dont have problems with it.

    And we can solder a joint and bury it.

    And we can propress a joint and bury it.

    I was under the impression you were not allowed to bury soft soldered joints in NJ, only brazed or mechanical connections such as flare or pack joint?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    Rich_49
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 16,053
    MA allowed "M" for potable water for a while back in the 80s but soon went back to "L" with "M" not allowed any longer.

    I guess it all depends on water quality.

    I don't know the price difference whether it saves much or not but If I was going to conceal or bury it it would be at least "L"

    I guess if they allow M then they do
  • dko
    dko Member Posts: 668
    It's a pretty significant price difference, close to 30%.
    For a couple lengths you'll stick to L then when you start getting into larger quantities you want to check code book. Usually how it goes...
    Alan (California Radiant) Forbes
  • realliveplumber
    realliveplumber Member Posts: 354
    ChrisJ said:

    Yes, no problem with using M. Its approved for underground as well.

    With municipal water in Southern NJ, we just dont have problems with it.

    And we can solder a joint and bury it.

    And we can propress a joint and bury it.

    I was under the impression you were not allowed to bury soft soldered joints in NJ, only brazed or mechanical connections such as flare or pack joint?
    You would be under the wrong impression.

    Soldered joint, pro press, even sharkbite is approved to be buried.


  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,121
    Yes, no problem with using M. Its approved for underground as well. With municipal water in Southern NJ, we just dont have problems with it. And we can solder a joint and bury it. And we can propress a joint and bury it.
    I was under the impression you were not allowed to bury soft soldered joints in NJ, only brazed or mechanical connections such as flare or pack joint?
    You would be under the wrong impression. Soldered joint, pro press, even sharkbite is approved to be buried.
    Very possible.


    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,782
    Coiled copper, soft copper is usually not perfectly round so it is hard to soft solder well. Flare is the best connection 
    i don't think you can get coiled, soft M?
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,121
    edited January 3
    hot_rod said:
    Coiled copper, soft copper is usually not perfectly round so it is hard to soft solder well. Flare is the best connection 
    i don't think you can get coiled, soft M?
    I could be wrong again but I was also under the impression it had to be type K to be buried as well.


    I may have been unsure and just went with what was the safest bet to be code compliant and now it's stuck in my head as being required even though it's not.  Maybe I was following Massachusetts code?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • realliveplumber
    realliveplumber Member Posts: 354
    ACR is a thin wall coiled tube. That is not listed as approved. Ive never seen soft coiled type M.

    M copper is approved for burial .
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 16,053
    edited January 4
    Everyone who is interested should look up Copper Development Association" They have a book you can download that has all copper information.


    M is only available in straight tubing, no coils.

    ACR tubing is the same wall thickness as type "L" except in a few of the small sizes

    ACR coils are usually 50' coils

    "L" in coils is usually 60 foot coils

    1 1/2" is the largest size furnished in coils

    The book has all the information you need for DWV, K, L, M, ACR etc. & medical gas tubing

  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 7,395
    Underground water Service K
    Potable Water L
    Heat M
    DWV Drainage waste & vent.

    No reason to chintz out...although less is code. Mad Dog 🐕 
    EdTheHeaterManbburdCLamb
  • realliveplumber
    realliveplumber Member Posts: 354
    edited January 4

    Everyone who is interested should look up Copper Development Association" They have a book you can download that has all copper information.


    M is only available in straight tubing, no coils.

    ACR tubing is the same wall thickness as type "L" except in a few of the small sizes

    ACR coils are usually 50' coils

    "L" in coils is usually 60 foot coils

    1 1/2" is the largest size furnished in coils

    The book has all the information you need for DWV, K, L, M, ACR etc. & medical gas tubing

    2" K is available in 40 and 60 foot rolls. Or coils.

    https://www.supplyhouse.com/Mueller-Industries-2K60-2-x-60-Type-K-Copper-Tubing-Coil

  • realliveplumber
    realliveplumber Member Posts: 354
    Mad Dog_2 said:

    Underground water Service K
    Potable Water L
    Heat M
    DWV Drainage waste & vent.

    No reason to chintz out...although less is code. Mad Dog 🐕 

    Unless you are trying to survive in a world where every hack and their brother is going to throw in some pex and 100 psi poly, and you strongly feel that copper is a far superior product, and you want to provide a far superior job, and dont have it in you to plasticize the world. And dont even get me started about csst.

    Alan (California Radiant) Forbes
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 8,517
    just change everything to PEX and be done with it. The PEX will be here in the year 4040, when the archaeologists from Venus fly their rocket ships to earth to explore where the human race came from. That copper will have disintegrated away by then.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    realliveplumber
  • realliveplumber
    realliveplumber Member Posts: 354
    and you know for a fact that type m copper will outlive the building that is constructed of wood chips and glue for joists, rafters, and sheathing.
    EdTheHeaterManChrisJdelcrossv
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,121
    edited January 4
    and you know for a fact that type m copper will outlive the building that is constructed of wood chips and glue for joists, rafters, and sheathing.
    Too many variables.

    My wooden framed house has already outlived copper pipe that was installed in it when it was already 70 years old.


    The copper was 80+ years old but it was on its last legs.




    Never mind.  I just realized what you said.
    You might be right 


    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    realliveplumber
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,782
    Underground water Service K
    Potable Water L
    Heat M
    DWV Drainage waste & vent.

    No reason to chintz out...although less is code. Mad Dog 🐕 
    Unless you are trying to survive in a world where every hack and their brother is going to throw in some pex and 100 psi poly, and you strongly feel that copper is a far superior product, and you want to provide a far superior job, and dont have it in you to plasticize the world. And dont even get me started about csst.
    I worked in an area, an old mining town in Utah
    Type k was required by the AHJ.  However in one area, a subdivision built over the mine tailings, the copper pin holed within 5 years

    Every home had to have copper removed and 200 psi poly installed

    But you can't hook a welder or pipe thaw machine  to poly very well, we learned 😉



    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,121
    hot_rod said:
    Underground water Service K
    Potable Water L
    Heat M
    DWV Drainage waste & vent.

    No reason to chintz out...although less is code. Mad Dog 🐕 
    Unless you are trying to survive in a world where every hack and their brother is going to throw in some pex and 100 psi poly, and you strongly feel that copper is a far superior product, and you want to provide a far superior job, and dont have it in you to plasticize the world. And dont even get me started about csst.
    I worked in an area, an old mining town in Utah
    Type k was required by the AHJ.  However in one area, a subdivision built over the mine tailings, the copper pin holed within 5 years

    Every home had to have copper removed and 200 psi poly installed

    But you can't hook a welder or pipe thaw machine  to poly very well, we learned 😉



    No but you can hot air weld hdpe.


    Back onto whether type M is ok.
    What thickness are typical copper fittings vs the pipe?  They seem very thin.

    If the fittings are similar to type M does L gain you anything?

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • dko
    dko Member Posts: 668
    edited January 4
    You will notice that it varies wildly between manufacturers. Even between domestic manufacturers.

    There's a reason why those who braze prefer Mueller domestic copper fittings. They are by far the thickest, heavy, and always well made. Elbows are slightly longer turn. I'd say they are type K thickness... by eye. Elkhart fell off a cliff in quality. Nibco is fine, but nowhere near Mueller. Both Type L (because they are not as thick as Mueller..not that I measured with a caliper or anything). Though when any of the companies are short on a fitting, they borrow each others.

    You now have to specify domestic Mueller as they bought over JungWoo copper from Korea, branded as Mueller Streamline. They stamp the Mueller logo on the import wrot copper now. BUT, if you have ever seen Jungwoo wrot and press fittings, they are one of the best and cleanest you have ever seen. It's like they make every single fitting with love. There's a reason Mueller bought them .

    Avoid Hailiang and PHC copper fittings. I'd put them below type M thickness. It's basically paper.

    Example photo below,


    Mueller left, Elkhart right. Same price..
    I stopped buying Elkhart because 80% of the bull/branch on tees come dented since they are so thin. Definitely on the type M level of thickness for their reducing fittings. Yes they can be rounded back into shape, but why would you want to have to waste time doing that. Elkhart is the only manufacturer that thins out so much on reducing fittings such as tees and couplings/ftg reducers. Most annoying thing to have a box of dented fittings.

    But I suppose the socket thickness is not as important when it wouldn't have contact with the media..
    ChrisJAlan (California Radiant) Forbes
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,782
    There are a lot of ASTM standards that cover copper tube and fittings for various applications. I thought it was mainly the copper quality but tolerances are also covered.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • MikeL_2
    MikeL_2 Member Posts: 509
    edited January 6

      There are many variables involved with this discussion.

       Potable, surface, & ground water qualities are always a factor.

       How much longer does type L copper last versus type M when the water supply has ph below 7?

       I've seen type L fittings & pipe leak from flow erosion; often where burrs remained from lack of tube reaming. And pinhole leaks in L & M copper where PH is below 7. 

      Type K was always used for water main piping, usually connecting public water supply that is filtered & treated as needed. I can't recall a leak in any type K copper water mains connected to a public water supply system.

       Pex tubing performs well so far, except for not being able to thaw with traditional methods when frozen. And I don't like to replace accessible copper pipe with pex in all cases. If there is harmful low PH in the water, a pex re-pipe will deliver potent water to hidden copper piping & faucet bodies.

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,782
    MikeL_2 said:

       There are many variables involved with this discussion.
         Potable, surface, & ground water qualities are always a factor.
          How much longer does type L copper last versus type M when the water supply has ph below 7?
         I've seen type L fittings & pipe leak from flow erosion; often where burrs remained from lack of tube reaming. And pinhole leaks in L & M copper where PH is below 7. 
        Type K was always used for water main piping, usually connecting public water supply that is filtered & treated as needed. I can't recall a leak in any type K copper water mains connected to a public water supply system.
         Pex tubing performs well so far, except for not being able to thaw with traditional methods when frozen. And I don't like to replace accessible copper pipe with pex in all cases. If there is harmful low PH in the water,  a pex re-pipe will deliver potent water to hidden copper piping & faucet bodies.

         
        
          
         
          

    Or aggressive soil around buried copper. There are times when plastic is a better solution for potable water piping. Much longer coils available also with plastic, less joints.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    MikeL_2
  • MikeL_2
    MikeL_2 Member Posts: 509
    edited January 4
    hot_rod said:
       There are many variables involved with this discussion.
         Potable, surface, & ground water qualities are always a factor.
          How much longer does type L copper last versus type M when the water supply has ph below 7?
         I've seen type L fittings & pipe leak from flow erosion; often where burrs remained from lack of tube reaming. And pinhole leaks in L & M copper where PH is below 7. 
        Type K was always used for water main piping, usually connecting public water supply that is filtered & treated as needed. I can't recall a leak in any type K copper water mains connected to a public water supply system.
         Pex tubing performs well so far, except for not being able to thaw with traditional methods when frozen. And I don't like to replace accessible copper pipe with pex in all cases. If there is harmful low PH in the water,  a pex re-pipe will deliver potent water to hidden copper piping & faucet bodies.

         
        
          
         
          
    Or aggressive soil around buried copper. There are times when plastic is a better solution for potable water piping. Much longer coils available also with plastic, less joints.
           Yes I agree,  Hot Rod.
            I've used quite a bit of the CTS coil plastic; always with a tracer wire when underground.
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 6,006
    All I needed to hear was that I can bury Sharkbites! :joy:

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

  • dko
    dko Member Posts: 668

    All I needed to hear was that I can bury Sharkbites! :joy:

    Only if you wrap it https://www.sharkbite.com/us/en/brass-push-to-connect/tools/silicone-wrap