Can you use type M copper pipe?

bender1227

Can you use type m pipe in NJ when hooking up the hot and cold water lines into a boiler? If there any real difference between type m and type l?

realliveplumber

Yes, M is approved in NJ. For potable and hydronic.

The wall thickness is the difference. L has a thicker wall than M.

HVACNUT

realliveplumber said:

Yes, M is approved in NJ. For potable and hydronic. The wall thickness is the difference. L has a thicker wall than M.

NJ allows M copper for domestic?

dko

HVACNUT said:

realliveplumber said:

Yes, M is approved in NJ. For potable and hydronic.

The wall thickness is the difference. L has a thicker wall than M.

NJ allows M copper for domestic?

According to their 2021 NSPC
https://epubs.iapmo.org/NSPC/NJ2021/

yes, and looks to have always been allowed in NJ even in prior code adoptions.



But will say, I have plenty of NJ plumbers and they still only buy type L pipe.

realliveplumber

Yes, no problem with using M. Its approved for underground as well.

With municipal water in Southern NJ, we just dont have problems with it.

And we can solder a joint and bury it.

And we can propress a joint and bury it.

ChrisJ

realliveplumber said:

Yes, no problem with using M. Its approved for underground as well.

With municipal water in Southern NJ, we just dont have problems with it.

And we can solder a joint and bury it.

And we can propress a joint and bury it.

I was under the impression you were not allowed to bury soft soldered joints in NJ, only brazed or mechanical connections such as flare or pack joint?

EBEBRATT-Ed

MA allowed "M" for potable water for a while back in the 80s but soon went back to "L" with "M" not allowed any longer.

I guess it all depends on water quality.

I don't know the price difference whether it saves much or not but If I was going to conceal or bury it it would be at least "L"

I guess if they allow M then they do

dko

It's a pretty significant price difference, close to 30%.
For a couple lengths you'll stick to L then when you start getting into larger quantities you want to check code book. Usually how it goes...

realliveplumber

ChrisJ said:

realliveplumber said:

Yes, no problem with using M. Its approved for underground as well.

With municipal water in Southern NJ, we just dont have problems with it.

And we can solder a joint and bury it.

And we can propress a joint and bury it.

I was under the impression you were not allowed to bury soft soldered joints in NJ, only brazed or mechanical connections such as flare or pack joint?

You would be under the wrong impression.

Soldered joint, pro press, even sharkbite is approved to be buried.

ChrisJ

realliveplumber said:

Yes, no problem with using M. Its approved for underground as well. With municipal water in Southern NJ, we just dont have problems with it. And we can solder a joint and bury it. And we can propress a joint and bury it.

I was under the impression you were not allowed to bury soft soldered joints in NJ, only brazed or mechanical connections such as flare or pack joint?

You would be under the wrong impression. Soldered joint, pro press, even sharkbite is approved to be buried.

Very possible.

hot_rod

Coiled copper, soft copper is usually not perfectly round so it is hard to soft solder well. Flare is the best connection 
i don't think you can get coiled, soft M?

ChrisJ

hot_rod said:

Coiled copper, soft copper is usually not perfectly round so it is hard to soft solder well. Flare is the best connection 
i don't think you can get coiled, soft M?

I could be wrong again but I was also under the impression it had to be type K to be buried as well.


I may have been unsure and just went with what was the safest bet to be code compliant and now it's stuck in my head as being required even though it's not.  Maybe I was following Massachusetts code?

realliveplumber

ACR is a thin wall coiled tube. That is not listed as approved. Ive never seen soft coiled type M.

M copper is approved for burial .

EBEBRATT-Ed

Everyone who is interested should look up Copper Development Association" They have a book you can download that has all copper information.


M is only available in straight tubing, no coils.

ACR tubing is the same wall thickness as type "L" except in a few of the small sizes

ACR coils are usually 50' coils

"L" in coils is usually 60 foot coils

1 1/2" is the largest size furnished in coils

The book has all the information you need for DWV, K, L, M, ACR etc. & medical gas tubing

Mad Dog_2

Underground water Service K
Potable Water L
Heat M
DWV Drainage waste & vent.

No reason to chintz out...although less is code. Mad Dog 🐕 

realliveplumber

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

Everyone who is interested should look up Copper Development Association" They have a book you can download that has all copper information.


M is only available in straight tubing, no coils.

ACR tubing is the same wall thickness as type "L" except in a few of the small sizes

ACR coils are usually 50' coils

"L" in coils is usually 60 foot coils

1 1/2" is the largest size furnished in coils

The book has all the information you need for DWV, K, L, M, ACR etc. & medical gas tubing

2" K is available in 40 and 60 foot rolls. Or coils.

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Mueller-Industries-2K60-2-x-60-Type-K-Copper-Tubing-Coil

realliveplumber

Mad Dog_2 said:

Underground water Service K
Potable Water L
Heat M
DWV Drainage waste & vent.

No reason to chintz out...although less is code. Mad Dog 🐕 

Unless you are trying to survive in a world where every hack and their brother is going to throw in some pex and 100 psi poly, and you strongly feel that copper is a far superior product, and you want to provide a far superior job, and dont have it in you to plasticize the world. And dont even get me started about csst.

EdTheHeaterMan

just change everything to PEX and be done with it. The PEX will be here in the year 4040, when the archaeologists from Venus fly their rocket ships to earth to explore where the human race came from. That copper will have disintegrated away by then.

realliveplumber

and you know for a fact that type m copper will outlive the building that is constructed of wood chips and glue for joists, rafters, and sheathing.

ChrisJ

realliveplumber said:

and you know for a fact that type m copper will outlive the building that is constructed of wood chips and glue for joists, rafters, and sheathing.

Too many variables.

My wooden framed house has already outlived copper pipe that was installed in it when it was already 70 years old.


The copper was 80+ years old but it was on its last legs.




Never mind.  I just realized what you said.
You might be right 

hot_rod

realliveplumber said:

Underground water Service K
Potable Water L
Heat M
DWV Drainage waste & vent.

No reason to chintz out...although less is code. Mad Dog 🐕 

Unless you are trying to survive in a world where every hack and their brother is going to throw in some pex and 100 psi poly, and you strongly feel that copper is a far superior product, and you want to provide a far superior job, and dont have it in you to plasticize the world. And dont even get me started about csst.

I worked in an area, an old mining town in Utah
Type k was required by the AHJ.  However in one area, a subdivision built over the mine tailings, the copper pin holed within 5 years

Every home had to have copper removed and 200 psi poly installed

But you can't hook a welder or pipe thaw machine  to poly very well, we learned 😉

ChrisJ

hot_rod said:

realliveplumber said:

Underground water Service K
Potable Water L
Heat M
DWV Drainage waste & vent.

No reason to chintz out...although less is code. Mad Dog 🐕 

Unless you are trying to survive in a world where every hack and their brother is going to throw in some pex and 100 psi poly, and you strongly feel that copper is a far superior product, and you want to provide a far superior job, and dont have it in you to plasticize the world. And dont even get me started about csst.

I worked in an area, an old mining town in Utah
Type k was required by the AHJ.  However in one area, a subdivision built over the mine tailings, the copper pin holed within 5 years

Every home had to have copper removed and 200 psi poly installed

But you can't hook a welder or pipe thaw machine  to poly very well, we learned 😉

No but you can hot air weld hdpe.


Back onto whether type M is ok.
What thickness are typical copper fittings vs the pipe?  They seem very thin.

If the fittings are similar to type M does L gain you anything?

dko

You will notice that it varies wildly between manufacturers. Even between domestic manufacturers.

There's a reason why those who braze prefer Mueller domestic copper fittings. They are by far the thickest, heavy, and always well made. Elbows are slightly longer turn. I'd say they are type K thickness... by eye. Elkhart fell off a cliff in quality. Nibco is fine, but nowhere near Mueller. Both Type L (because they are not as thick as Mueller..not that I measured with a caliper or anything). Though when any of the companies are short on a fitting, they borrow each others.

You now have to specify domestic Mueller as they bought over JungWoo copper from Korea, branded as Mueller Streamline. They stamp the Mueller logo on the import wrot copper now. BUT, if you have ever seen Jungwoo wrot and press fittings, they are one of the best and cleanest you have ever seen. It's like they make every single fitting with love. There's a reason Mueller bought them .

Avoid Hailiang and PHC copper fittings. I'd put them below type M thickness. It's basically paper.

Example photo below,


Mueller left, Elkhart right. Same price..
I stopped buying Elkhart because 80% of the bull/branch on tees come dented since they are so thin. Definitely on the type M level of thickness for their reducing fittings. Yes they can be rounded back into shape, but why would you want to have to waste time doing that. Elkhart is the only manufacturer that thins out so much on reducing fittings such as tees and couplings/ftg reducers. Most annoying thing to have a box of dented fittings.

But I suppose the socket thickness is not as important when it wouldn't have contact with the media..

realliveplumber

https://acandb.com/products/2-type-k-x-40-soft_2k40?variant=46994182013225&currency=USD&utm_medium=product_sync&utm_source=google&utm_content=sag_organic&utm_campaign=sag_organic&gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIntyt8NPCgwMVPEVHAR0_cQ_JEAQYASABEgJp-vD_BwE

dko

realliveplumber said:

https://acandb.com/products/2-type-k-x-40-soft_2k40?variant=46994182013225&currency=USD&utm_medium=product_sync&utm_source=google&utm_content=sag_organic&utm_campaign=sag_organic&gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIntyt8NPCgwMVPEVHAR0_cQ_JEAQYASABEgJp-vD_BwE

yes, 2" is available coiled in both L and K. I have them but haven't sold any since 2015....

hot_rod

There are a lot of ASTM standards that cover copper tube and fittings for various applications. I thought it was mainly the copper quality but tolerances are also covered.

MikeL_2

  There are many variables involved with this discussion.

   Potable, surface, & ground water qualities are always a factor.

   How much longer does type L copper last versus type M when the water supply has ph below 7?

   I've seen type L fittings & pipe leak from flow erosion; often where burrs remained from lack of tube reaming. And pinhole leaks in L & M copper where PH is below 7. 

  Type K was always used for water main piping, usually connecting public water supply that is filtered & treated as needed. I can't recall a leak in any type K copper water mains connected to a public water supply system.

   Pex tubing performs well so far, except for not being able to thaw with traditional methods when frozen. And I don't like to replace accessible copper pipe with pex in all cases. If there is harmful low PH in the water, a pex re-pipe will deliver potent water to hidden copper piping & faucet bodies.

hot_rod

MikeL_2 said:

   There are many variables involved with this discussion.
     Potable, surface, & ground water qualities are always a factor.
      How much longer does type L copper last versus type M when the water supply has ph below 7?
     I've seen type L fittings & pipe leak from flow erosion; often where burrs remained from lack of tube reaming. And pinhole leaks in L & M copper where PH is below 7. 
    Type K was always used for water main piping, usually connecting public water supply that is filtered & treated as needed. I can't recall a leak in any type K copper water mains connected to a public water supply system.
     Pex tubing performs well so far, except for not being able to thaw with traditional methods when frozen. And I don't like to replace accessible copper pipe with pex in all cases. If there is harmful low PH in the water,  a pex re-pipe will deliver potent water to hidden copper piping & faucet bodies.

     
    
      
     
      

Or aggressive soil around buried copper. There are times when plastic is a better solution for potable water piping. Much longer coils available also with plastic, less joints.

MikeL_2

hot_rod said:

   There are many variables involved with this discussion.
     Potable, surface, & ground water qualities are always a factor.
      How much longer does type L copper last versus type M when the water supply has ph below 7?
     I've seen type L fittings & pipe leak from flow erosion; often where burrs remained from lack of tube reaming. And pinhole leaks in L & M copper where PH is below 7. 
    Type K was always used for water main piping, usually connecting public water supply that is filtered & treated as needed. I can't recall a leak in any type K copper water mains connected to a public water supply system.
     Pex tubing performs well so far, except for not being able to thaw with traditional methods when frozen. And I don't like to replace accessible copper pipe with pex in all cases. If there is harmful low PH in the water,  a pex re-pipe will deliver potent water to hidden copper piping & faucet bodies.

     
    
      
     
      

Or aggressive soil around buried copper. There are times when plastic is a better solution for potable water piping. Much longer coils available also with plastic, less joints.

       Yes I agree,  Hot Rod.
        I've used quite a bit of the CTS coil plastic; always with a tracer wire when underground.

ethicalpaul

All I needed to hear was that I can bury Sharkbites!

dko

ethicalpaul said:

All I needed to hear was that I can bury Sharkbites!

Only if you wrap it https://www.sharkbite.com/us/en/brass-push-to-connect/tools/silicone-wrap