Beckett air leak new Roth tank

throwsaheater

Plumber I hired insisted I needed a Roth tank. Ok went with it.  Oil service tech comes in next day to do annual clean, says I need a new ?plate and gasket?  Shows me where it had worn?   That was 4 weeks ago. First 1.5 week the burner service sent 3 more service guys, each one seemingly more confident than last.  They went through process of telling me tank install looked proper, they all reefed on fittings, bled air and left, only to return in 24 or 48 hours.  Interestingly, with me standing over him, the last guy gave a slight tug on braided ss line and it Fell Off. He tightened, bled line I busted his balls in a good hearted way and for two weeks all has been well.  

It has now lost prime twice in less than 24 hours.  

Could this be the tank? Are these known to have problems? My old steel tank was oil in top oil out the bottom.  This one is oil must reach top of tank. 

Nobody has double checked fittings or flares, which led to the last guy pulling SS hose off. After watching the parade of techs come through I’m confident I can do that. I can’t do worse.

what is the vacuum testing? Will it show results for pump(s) twank, lines and fittings? Will it show results for just the time it’s drawing pressure or will it find minute leakage that would result in failure over a fairly short period, say 12 hours?   Your opinions are very much appreciated.  

SuperTech

Pictures of the oil tank and oil line connections as well as the oil filter and oil line connections to the oil burner would be helpful. 

Did anyone install a vacuum gauge?

HVACNUT

So it's still 2 pipe and its losing prime?

Bad flares. Bad threaded fittings. The braided line just pulled off? How is that even possible? Caught one thread?

EBEBRATT-Ed

The next thing they will teel you is you need "the tiger loop band aid".

After all tiger loops make perfect sense. They (the technicians) don't know how to flare tubing or put fittings together so you have a tight system so then they put a TL on is because it eliminates air.

This is perfectly disgusting and the quality of some of these technicians sucks. They are sent out with little or no training. It didn't used to be this bad.

But you have a problem. The plumber installed the tank and now you have technicians working on it. Are they from the same company or different contractors??? Who will be responsible?

There is no substitute for a tight suction line . Period. They have to make this right or you will be plagued forever.

I prefer gravity one pipe off the bottom simple and it works. Now you have the Roth so your stuck with it.

Is your burner hooked up 1 pipe or two pipe? If it is one pipe I would make it two pipe. You will get a difference of opinion on that for sure.

LRCCBJ

I feel your pain.

After installing a new flat 275, single pipe with bottom feed, I decided to get rid of the line that runs 70 feet on the floor of the crawl space. Brought it up overhead and secured it properly to the floor joists. Utilized EIGHT new flare fitting to get the job done.

After six weeks of attempts (2-3 hours per day.........intermittently), I have still failed.

My conclusion at this point is that you CANNOT reuse 30 year old copper. When you put a new flare in it, the seating face remains contaminated by the black residue that is coating the entire inside of the tube. This not something that can be easily removed prior to the flare without compromising the flare. I'm going to replace most of this overhead line with NEW 1/2" copper tube and see how it goes.

In any case, if you want to tackle it yourself (which you are going to have to do because nobody will do it for you), you need to get a vacuum gauge on the burner and get a tank to bleed fuel into. You connect 3/8" clear plastic tubing to the bleeder and run the other end into the tank. Then you shutoff the closest valve you can find to the burner (presumably the Firomatic).

Start the burner and open the bleeder 1/4 turn. Watch the vacuum gauge. It will slowly climb up above 10". When it does, close the bleeder. Hopefully you have a 45 second delay until the primary opens and the burner shuts down.

When it shuts down..........watch the vacuum gauge. It MUST remain rock steady. If it starts to fall in any way, you have a suction leak. If it remains steady, you KNOW that the piping between the Firomatic and the fuel pump is tight. If it falls, there is a leak in either the fuel pump or one of the connected hard pipes or the fuel filter.

Now, you have to repeat this process for each flared connection. Find the next flare, take it apart, get a proper brass flare plug (or brass cap) and tighten it onto the flared tubing.

Run the vacuum test on the burner again. Same observation. If the vacuum holds, that connection will be OK and you can reconnect the fitting and move onward until the vacuum gauge does not hold. That is your suction leak.

In my situation, I was totally perplexed and searching for a ghost because I HAD achieved no leak all the way back to my new manifold near the tank. I then began searching the fittings near the tank and found nothing. Apparently, one of the flares that previously checked out OK now began to leak slightly AGAIN! This required starting over from the beginning.

When you are confident that the system holds vacuum all the way to the tank valve, you can test the system with fuel. To do that, you open all the fuel valves all the way to the tank. When you start the burner this time, you'll need to jump the F-F terminals on the primary AFTER THE BURNER STARTS.

So, crack the bleeder 1/4 turn, start the burner, immediately jump the F-F terminals and watch the fuel. You will see a pile of fuel and air come out and the air will slowly decrease and finally STOP if you have a tight system. If the tiny air bubbles continue, the suction leak remains and your quest continues.

It is a long tedious process and you'll never get any contractor do it (if they even know HOW to do it).

BTW, Ed is correct in the use of a two pipe system. If you don't mind a second copper line run all the way back to the tank, this will solve a small suction leak and prevent the burner from shutting down.

Good luck.

pecmsg

10, 20 or 30 year old copper just doesn’t make a difference. A bad flair is a bad flair!

LRCCBJ

pecmsg said:

10, 20 or 30 year old copper just doesn’t make a difference. A bad flair is a bad flair!

Well, that is what I originally thought. I'll have to show you a photo of the flare that was done on the 30 year old tube. The black contamination is self evident. This contamination is coated all over the inside of the tube after 30 years of oil flowing through it.

pecmsg

LRCCBJ said:

10, 20 or 30 year old copper just doesn’t make a difference. A bad flair is a bad flair!

Well, that is what I originally thought. I'll have to show you a photo of the flare that was done on the 30 year old tube. The black contamination is self evident. This contamination is coated all over the inside of the tube after 30 years of oil flowing through it.

and
if done properly it doesn’t leak!

throwsaheater

@Super Tech
pics uploaded no use of vacuum gauge. Thanks Merry Christmas 

throwsaheater

@HVACNUT
Yes caught last thread. I know it doesn’t make sense but tech spotted oil shining off nut, ran his finger on it and it fell to floor.  

throwsaheater

@EBEBRATT-Ed
the plumber skated asap. When I advised him he said” worked when I was there”. 

I need more edu as I don’t know difference between one or two pipe. I posted pics if that helps.  Thanks for commenting and Merry Christmas 

EBEBRATT-Ed

@LRCCBJ

Copper tubing tends to get work hardened. If it does the flares can split.

To make a good flare you have to cut the tubing preferably with a sharp tubing cutter which will leave less of a burr. Straighten the tubing before cutting don't cut on a bend.

If it is old tubing and a flare splits heat it until it is red and let it cool (don't use water) this will soften and anneal it. Use a tubing cutter with a reamer to remove the burr. I prefer a jack knife.

Don't forget to put the nut on. Put the flaring tool on the tubing and tighten it. Put the flaring cone on the flaring tool. A couple drops of oil on the flare cone can help, motor oil 3 n1 whatever you have. Start to make the flare go 1/2 a turn and back it off then 1 turn and back it off then 1 1/2 and back it of etc etc. Keep going until the flare is done.

You have to learn how much tubing to let stich out. This takes practice. You want the flare as big as possible for more sealing surface..As big as you can make it and get the nut over it. You can file the OD of the flare if it is too big.

The newer flaring tools made for mini splits do a nicer job but I have a 50 year old Imperial 192 which works fine.

If there is any residue in the tubing use a Q tip and some solvent to clean it before flaring or use new tubing.

And don't use any bushings for pipe fittings reduce with elbows or reducing couplings.

Bushings are outlawed on gas pipe why? Because they are leakers. They don't stop leaking just because you use them on oil.

In the past Teflon tape was used there were less problems with oil lines leaking. Then the oil pump MFGs got in the act and all of a sudden it got outlawed. Wrong move. If it is used properly it is not an issue. Oil is the only piping system it cannot be used on and that makes no sense.

The small pipe fittings in the pictures above it is hard to tell if they used any pipe dope on them.

Next time you dope a threaded fitting in take it back out and see how much dope is inside.....practically none. When you screw the fitting in it pushes the dope out. With teflon tape that doesn't happen.

LRCCBJ

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

@LRCCBJ

Copper tubing tends to get work hardened. If it does the flares can split.

To make a good flare you have to cut the tubing preferably with a sharp tubing cutter which will leave less of a burr. Straighten the tubing before cutting don't cut on a bend.

If it is old tubing and a flare splits heat it until it is red and let it cool (don't use water) this will soften and anneal it. Use a tubing cutter with a reamer to remove the burr. I prefer a jack knife.

Don't forget to put the nut on. Put the flaring tool on the tubing and tighten it. Put the flaring cone on the flaring tool. A couple drops of oil on the flare cone can help, motor oil 3 n1 whatever you have. Start to make the flare go 1/2 a turn and back it off then 1 turn and back it off then 1 1/2 and back it of etc etc. Keep going until the flare is done.

You have to learn how much tubing to let stich out. This takes practice. You want the flare as big as possible for more sealing surface..As big as you can make it and get the nut over it. You can file the OD of the flare if it is too big.

The newer flaring tools made for mini splits do a nicer job but I have a 50 year old Imperial 192 which works fine.

If there is any residue in the tubing use a Q tip and some solvent to clean it before flaring or use new tubing.

And don't use any bushings for pipe fittings reduce with elbows or reducing couplings.

Bushings are outlawed on gas pipe why? Because they are leakers. They don't stop leaking just because you use them on oil.

In the past Teflon tape was used there were less problems with oil lines leaking. Then the oil pump MFGs got in the act and all of a sudden it got outlawed. Wrong move. If it is used properly it is not an issue. Oil is the only piping system it cannot be used on and that makes no sense.

The small pipe fittings in the pictures above it is hard to tell if they used any pipe dope on them.

Next time you dope a threaded fitting in take it back out and see how much dope is inside.....practically none. When you screw the fitting in it pushes the dope out. With teflon tape that doesn't happen.

Thanks.

I am familiar with all of the above and have taken great care in every single flare fitting. They simply will not successfully prevent any slight leak. The tube is cut perfectly straight across, deburred properly with a deburring knife.

I will admit to not tightening and backing off.......retightening..........and backing off. I will attempt same with the new tubing.

The old tubing did not split. However, the black residue is all over the face of the flare. I cannot imagine that this can be successful with any certainty and my trials and tribulations with it seem to support that conclusion. Flaring is not that difficult. I use a Rigid 23332 which appears to be a well designed product. My only statement regarding it is the limitation of the protrusion of the copper prior to the flare. This tool will limit the protrusion to approx 3/32" at most or the cone will not pass the side of the tube when it is slid down over the clamping portion. I could be making a bit of an error and the tube must protrude more than 3/32" but the cone must be properly positioned over the tube and THEN the tube slid closer to the cone until approx. 1/8" protrusion is achieved. There currently is plenty of clearance between the nut and the tube so this could be part of the issue.

LRCCBJ

Regarding the pipe dope on the inside of a pipe fitting:

I agree with "practically none".

But the requirement for pipe dope is only the few thousands of an inch between the Major diameter of the male threads and the major diameter of the female threads. The joint cannot leak on the pitch diameter because there is more than enough contact over quite a bit of length. So, the only place the dope can remain is exactly where you need it.........in the tiny gap between the peaks of the male and the valleys of the female. In reality, this dope cannot escape from the area where you need it.

When you look at it after removal, you will absolutely think it is 98% gone. But, that is not the determining factor.

LRCCBJ

I do agree with your conclusion regarding the use of Teflon tape. I need to seal 10,000 psi on an Enerpac thread where the coupler is exchanged. It is successful every time with the teflon tape. I would not attempt this with the dope.

EBEBRATT-Ed

I don't think the contamination is an issue

STEVEusaPA

Some thought, back to the OP. Looks like a regular typical job to me. I’d put an oil watcher on it. Then I’d power vacuum bleed the unit. You only have 3 flares. Between the vacuum gauge, looking for a restriction, and the watcher looking for a vacuum leak you should be able to figure it out. If you see a vacuum leak, heavy grease one fitting at a time and keep checking. Don’t rule out overhead line, firomatics, causing a high vacuum that mimics a vacuum leak.
Also, that flex line is garbage. I’ve easily broken a few just changing the pump strainer, and according to their own manufacturer, have a short lifespan.
I’ve gone back to hard copper. It’s easy enough to swing the door open when changing the pump strainer.
I have no idea what @LRCCBJ is yapping about flares and reusing copper and crud inside. A proper (re)flared tube is practically mirror shine smooth/clean. If the mating fitting is clean, smooth, and scratch/nick free, the flares are fine. Little nylog, and proper torque helps too. Flares on minisplits are nitro tested at 600 psi.

realliveplumber

Bushings are outlawed on gas pipe why? Because they are leakers. They don't stop leaking just because you use them on oil.



Ive never had a bushing leak.

The code restriction in the IFCG does not allow "cast iron" bushings. There is no restriction on the use of malleable bushings

The gas company uses them on almost every meter set. Ive used them for 20 years and never had an issue.

Well, maybe once, when a new, green inspector said that bushings were illegal. Then I requested that he cite the code section......

EBEBRATT-Ed

@realliveplumber

I shouldn.t have said bushings are illegal on gas just CI bushings are.

We are on NFPA 54 for gs in Massachusetts. Even before adopting NFPA 54 MA outlawed CI bushings. In fact MA does not allow any CI on gas except flanges, filters, valves and strainers.

Almost any supply house you go into the bushings will be CI except in the small sizes. 1" and under most have Steel bushings which are only made up to 1. For larger sizes they have malleable or forged steel but most places do not stock them.

I just don't think bushings are a good choice for oil

Jon_blaney

I would investigate the oil pick up. I think there was a problem with them collapsing in these tanks. The hydraulics change as oil is used, over the two week period. Lift increases as oil level drops.

HVACNUT

Jon_blaney said:

I would investigate the oil pick up. I think there was a problem with them collapsing in these tanks. The hydraulics change as oil is used, over the two week period. Lift increases as oil level drops.

They don't use the float pickup tube anymore. Not for years.

Alan Welch

Close the valve on the oil line at the tank, then run the burner. It should get up around 20 inches of vacuum before the burner starts sputtering. Shut it off and mark the gauge
above the filter ,it should hold that vacuum.

BDR529

The 8184G and the old pump cover on a clean-cut...?