T-87 mercury replacement

ChristineNoel1967

The repairman replaced our T-87 with a Protech T-771.  Now our floors are no longer warm all over. The heat is very patchy. He said our old thermostat told the boiler to heat before circulating and the new thermostat would start circulating right away with the cooler water. I was at work and my husband was the one at home. I called then the next day, a Friday and the repairman had left early for the weekend. I said not to bother him and Monday would be fine, but the would have to speak to my husband as I work 10 hours on Mondays.  They did call. The answer was this way the new thermostat is better and we will not have the build up of heat anymore and if we do not like the cold floors then just turn up the heat.  This is unacceptable to me. The house is warm enough my floors are not. I want that build up.  I have had it for thirty-one years. This is a down grade for me. I am willing to pay for it to be put back like it was except I do not know who to trust. Does the Honeywell T-87 act just like the mercury and will tell it to heat first.  Sorry for such a long question. I am just very unhappy with my upgrade that seems like a downgrade.  

EdTheHeaterMan

The explanation you were given may have had something lost in the translation. The T87F thermostat (the old mercury type) is just a switch that opens and closes a circuit that operates the heater. The new T-771 is just a switch that opens and closes that same circuit. There is nothing in the thermostat that can change the way the controls in the boiler room operate. Were there any changes made in the boiler room to the controls? Were temperature settings on the high limit adjusted? Does the boiler also make your Domestic Hot Water?

If absolutely nothing else was changed ... only the thermostat ... then perhaps the heat anticipator on the old T87F was set to have longer operation. The new thermostat may have a cycles per hour setting that will do the same thing.

By the Way, I could not find a Protec T-771 anywhere on the internet. Are you sure the model number is correct? Take a picture of the thermostat and post it here.

109A_5

Hello @ChristineNoel1967,
I'd have showed him the door if he wanted to touch my T87F.

Maybe a Pro1® T771 Thermostat, Non-Programmable Thermostat, 44 to 90 deg F Control, R, C, W/Y, G Terminal, Import

The newer electronic thermostats just having a poor software excuse for a heat anticipator, as @EdTheHeaterMan stated they are basically only a switch, heat on, heat off. Something else may have been touched or changed.

EdTheHeaterMan

I just figured out why I could not find the thermostat... this is a thermostat that is sold to contractors so they can put a private label on it. https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.supplyhouse.com/product_files/Pro1-IAQ-771-Install-Instructions.pdf I found the T771 manual and there is a setting on the installer setup menu for SWING. This is the equivalent of the heat anticipator of the old Honeywell T87F. It comes preset at 0.4, You will want them to set the SWING to 1 or 1.2 in order to get the same performance as the old mercury thermostat.

You could try it yourself if you feel mechanically inclined today.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@ChristineNoel1967

Your service company is not the best. The fact they do not know what @EdTheHeaterMan figured out by sitting at his computer tells you how much they care.

If I were you, I would change the setting for the cycles/hour myself and then send your service company a bill for doing that.

reggi

The T-87 is bulletproof and the Tech should replace it out of his pocket and his search for it... That would pis* me right off too ! 
You know your equipment!!! 

ChristineNoel1967

ChristineNoel1967

The first 2 images are from when I had to request them to come as the furnace was not working.  My husband was in the hospital with blood clots in his leg and both lungs.   The second two images are from his second visit when he changed my thermostat.  And made me very mad to say the least.  I hope this helps. I am pretty much clueless that is why I pay someone to do this work for us. 

ChristineNoel1967

ChristineNoel1967

These are images of the thermostat.  Sorry they were taken with my flash as my husband is asleep on the couch.  

Thank you all very much for your input. You are all very nice to do this. 

Matt_67

Just an observation that the temp of the floor is going to relate to the temp of the room. Widening the differential will make the floor warmer but then it will cool off before the next call for heat. Is it possible the old thermostat was out of calibration and keeping the room warmer than you thought? Also it would be good to remove the pricing pics as we aren’t allowed to discuss pricing on this forum.

EdTheHeaterMan

Call your credit card company and dispute the charge. They replaced a thermostat that was working. that will get their attention. Let them know that you want a mercury T87F thermostat "That was working fine" back on your wall, if they want your business in the future. No ands. Ifs, or buts! No explanation is needed. No reason why something that has their name on it is better. You are not interested in a thermostat just because it has their name on it! You want a working T87F NOW! They are not getting your money for a repair that was not needed.

Some service tech probably got a commission for selling you that thermostat, Too Bad for him, He will loose his commission and they will loose you as a customer.

Jamie Hall

You got robbed. Not to put too fine a point on it. That old thermostat -- the T87 mercury -- can be and probably was sold on eBay or Craigslist the same day for twice what you paid the crook for the new one he sold you.

Unhappily, I doubt that you can get it back... and the new one will never work as well.

WMno57

This is why I DIY.
Four scenarios:

• The thermostat may have been bad (unlikely)
  
• Tech may be a hack parts swapper
  
• Tech may be told by management to replace working stats to get their name on wall
  
• Tech may be selling stats on eBay
  

Doesn't really matter because the mercury thermostat that was removed from your wall is still your property. Where is it? What happened to it. They can't toss it in the trash. Mercury is hazardous waste. Do they have a contract with a hazardous waste company? Is there a record of the hazardous waste company doing a pickup between your service and today? These are the questions Indiana EPA will ask them if they get involved.

Tell them you want your thermostat back. If they BS you explain to them your next call is to the County Sheriff or your town's Police department (jurisdiction of your home where theft of thermostat occurred) Tell the them you will also call the Indiana EPA and tell IN EPA that they are not disposing of mercury as required by law. If they are unavailable tell the receptionist you will call the police and EPA Tuesday morning.

pecmsg

All MY supply houses have bins for collecting old t-stats and disposing properly!

WMno57

I like to track things down on the Internet. Found these. Probably not yours because they are new in box. Ad is 13 weeks old. 5 bucks each (they have six). Wish i was closer. At that price, I'd buy them all.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/696386975702872/

WMno57

Two houses ago my well tank had a sticker from the company that installed the pump. I saw the sticker when I made my final inspection b4 purchasing the home. It had the date the pump was installed, the depth of the pump, depth of well, and installing company. The county required a water test paid for by the sellers b4 closing.
I closed, took possession, and guess what? MY STICKER, on MY WELL TANK, with all the important information for MY SUBMERSIBLE PUMP was GONE! The sticker had been scratched off the tank. In it's place was the sticker of the well company that did the water test.
I find it curious that the new thermostat has the company advertising on it.

realliveplumber

Seems to me that there is alot of jumping to conclusions here.

What are the emitters? is it radiant heat with, or without, tracks, staple up, cast iron rads, cast iron baseboards, fin and tube baseboard, fan coils?

It is certainly possible that you had 2 different items fail in a short period of time. The boiler and the thermostat are both quite old. It is not out of the realm of possibility. Nothing lasts forever.

As mentioned before, BOTH of the thermostats are simply a switch. Also, they are not scientific instruments.

I feel it is unfair and irresponsible to bash the contactor, who is not able to defend himself. There are 2 sides to every story. You all have only heard one.

Jamie Hall

While I admire your attempt to be even-handed, @retiredguy there are at least two problems with the explanation you advance. First, the explanation from the service person, as related to us by the customer, was completely bogus. Whether this was due to lack of knowledge on their part or an intent to sell I can't tell, and won't judge. Second, while there may have been some sort of failure, may I humbly point out that the old mercury T87s are pretty close to bulletproof. Occasionally -- very rarely -- the anticipator will burn out, but that is quite literally the only way they can fail. Perhaps more important, with regard to the failure theory, is that there was no mention of a failure involved here; it was a statement that the new thermostat would solve a "problem" -- which doesn't seem to have been there.

If the contractor can provide an explanation as to how thermostat A can cause the boiler to turn on and off in a different way from thermostat B (read the explanation given in the original post) and how the control stability of the new thermostat is better than the old, I'll at least consider it.

Otherwise, no sale. Perhaps I was harsh in referring to the installer as a crook, as that implies intent. However, there is no harm to not refer to a situation where there has been a downgrade made with no evidence of a problem as wrong; whether from lack of knowledge or intent, a harm has been done and it must be called out.

WMno57

So maybe the mercury wore out?
We may never know if the stat was bad or not, and it doesn't really matter. What does matter is right now the customer is NOT happy. They need to make it right. Good businesses do that, bad ones don't.

Jamie Hall

The mercury wore out? Please explain, @WMno57 ...

ChrisJ

Jamie Hall said:

The mercury wore out? Please explain, @WMno57 ...

I think he was being sarcastic.

WMno57

Sorry, the failings of the internet. I was being sarcastic with the "mercury wore out" comment. If it were my house, I could probably walk into their storefront, be polite, stand my ground, and get a resolution. 99.9 percent of the time that's how things work out here in Indiana.

ChristineNoel1967

I am so sorry about the pricing on the bills.  I do not know how to remove the pictures. I truly am not wanting to discuss the pricing.  I just would love to get my floors back to beings consistently warm. If anyone knows how to remove them for me I will be very grateful. I do not want to cause any problems here.  

pecmsg

ChristineNoel1967 said:

I am so sorry about the pricing on the bills.  I do not know how to remove the pictures. I truly am not wanting to discuss the pricing.  I just would love to get my floors back to beings consistently warm. If anyone knows how to remove them for me I will be very grateful. I do not want to cause any problems here.  

@Erin Holohan Haskell

Jamie Hall

ChristineNoel1967 said:

I am so sorry about the pricing on the bills.  I do not know how to remove the pictures. I truly am not wanting to discuss the pricing.  I just would love to get my floors back to beings consistently warm. If anyone knows how to remove them for me I will be very grateful. I do not want to cause any problems here.  

You haven't caused any problems. We just tend to get upset when we see people getting pushed into things they didn't want and don't need. If there is any hope of getting the old thermostat back, that would be the place to start. Otherwise, you may be able to persuade the one they sold you to work better, And maybe not. Do you have the actual make and model number of the thermostat? Or better yet do you have the instruction manual for it? If either one, we may be able to figure out how to set it to work better.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@EdTheHeaterMan posted the instructions above to change the "swing" or "differential" That will probably be the fix.

Just have them come back and make that change and have them walk you through the thermostat operation so you can readjust it afterwords if you need to.


If the swing or differential (they are one in the same) is too narrow the house may come up to temp and the temperature will be accurate, but the floors may not be as warm......then you need a slightly longer boiler run time. You do this by increasing the swing which will make the boiler run a little longer. But too large a swing will cause temperature variations.

The reason for an adjustable swing is that different systems heat differently. Warm air systems heat fast and cool down fast. Radiant floors heat slow but hold the heat longer. So it is a thermostat adjustment.

Your old T87 did the same thing it had an adjustable "heat anticipator" in it>

109A_5

Hello @ChristineNoel1967,
With the parts originally changed and then the thermostat it kind of seems like they were guessing and not actually troubleshooting. Hopefully the parts cannon actually found the actual problem.

Erin Holohan Haskell

Welcome @ChristineNoel1967. I'm so sorry to hear about your husband's illness. I wish him well with his recovery. And to be experiencing heating problems on top of that must be very frustrating. We'll do our best to help you from afar as much as we can.

I've amended your photos so that they no longer contain pricing or personal information.

Let's all re-focus on helping Christine navigate this situation instead of making sarcastic comments and bashing the contractor. Thank you!

ChristineNoel1967

Erin Holohan Haskell thank you for fixing my mistake in my photos.  I may have not made things very clear in my posts.  Both times the repairman came to our home our furnace would not turn on. We have a boiler unit that the piping runs under the floors. Our home was built in 1956 or 1957 and we purchased it in 1992.  I know in Indiana it is illegal to install a mercury thermostat. Finding someone to install one I think would be very hard.  I would like to know which if any thermostats would work the same. The repairman said the variance on the mercury was plus or minus 5 degrees where as the new one was plus or minus 1 degree. I have had a person on Facebook say it is the contactor.   He is not an HVAC person. I just would like to have the build up in heat on our floors we were told we would no longer have. I hope this clarifies some things better.  Thank you all so much.  

ChrisJ

@ChristineNoel1967

I think it'll be best if you can supply us with some pictures of the system. The boiler, the piping around it. Anything you can think of that may help us piece the puzzle together.

I highly doubt it's the thermostat's fault. More likely the setting as others have pointed out.

But lets start with pictures, the more the better.

Matt_67

I would highly recommend raising the temperature a couple of degrees and see what that does. The old mercury thermostats were not always installed perfectly level nor calibrated perfectly. I believe it’s very likely that your old stat was keeping your house warmer than what you thought. It’s not uncommon to see those 4 to 5 degrees off. And I have seen heat anticipator issues on those as well, so while not common, the old stat could have indeed been bad.

realliveplumber

Jamie Hall said:

While I admire your attempt to be even-handed, @retiredguy there are at least two problems with the explanation you advance. First, the explanation from the service person, as related to us by the customer, was completely bogus. Whether this was due to lack of knowledge on their part or an intent to sell I can't tell, and won't judge. Second, while there may have been some sort of failure, may I humbly point out that the old mercury T87s are pretty close to bulletproof. Occasionally -- very rarely -- the anticipator will burn out, but that is quite literally the only way they can fail. Perhaps more important, with regard to the failure theory, is that there was no mention of a failure involved here; it was a statement that the new thermostat would solve a "problem" -- which doesn't seem to have been there.

If the contractor can provide an explanation as to how thermostat A can cause the boiler to turn on and off in a different way from thermostat B (read the explanation given in the original post) and how the control stability of the new thermostat is better than the old, I'll at least consider it.

Otherwise, no sale. Perhaps I was harsh in referring to the installer as a crook, as that implies intent. However, there is no harm to not refer to a situation where there has been a downgrade made with no evidence of a problem as wrong; whether from lack of knowledge or intent, a harm has been done and it must be called out.

Nope.

It seems that there are guys that are way too quick to jump in and bash a contractor. No one even knew what the heat source is. Is it even radiant?

He was almost immediately accused of being a thief and selling the old stat on ebay.

It was early Monday morning, and most of the country has had sever weather recently. Maybe the guy is putting out fires, or trying to get someones heater working, or pumping out a flooded basement.

No one even gave the guy a chance to try to work with the homeowner.

And you got it the information second hand. She wasnt home when the contractor was there. Her husband was.

Was the mercury thermostat mounted level, or was it crooked and even though it was set at 68, it was really 88. And now that the o.p.can see a digital number, its different than it was.

This is not legal help. Its heating help. People should not be so quick to jump in and say send certified mail, call the lawyer......you got screwed.......

Help the homeowner find out why her floor isnt as warm as it was before. But dont bash the contractor or accuse him of being a thief if he cant defend himself.

Its innocent untill proven guilty.

Jamie Hall

On your head be it, I very rarely bash a contractor. I don't even bash homeowners all that often. But I do call spades spades, and not implements for digging earth. The plain fact of the matter, so far as I can ascertain, is that the homeowner was comfortable with the old thermostat, and not with the new.

realliveplumber

They may have been comfortable with it, but that doesn't mean it was working.

Or working properly. Or calibrated. Or accurate.

Once again, people should be advising the o.p. on the issue of why her floor isnt as warm as it once was. Not recommending that she call the police. Or the epa.

How come no one ever suggests a mediation? People on keyboards immediately go for the jugular and want to basically ruin a guys business and reputation, and call for the epa and the cops before the o.p. even updates on the status of the situation, or provides pertinent information that is required before an opinion can even be offered. Give me a break.

THAT IS IRRESPONSIBLE AND JUST PLAIN WRONG. Its disgusting.

Does anyone even know what type of emitters are in the residence? Because without that information, no one can even begin to offer a solution to the home owners problem.

ChristineNoel1967

Please don’t argue. It is my ignorance of not putting enough information for you educated people to be able to properly even try to diagnose my problem. I am putting pictures on here that I just took to help everyone see what I have.  I have been spoiled for these 31 years and at almost 57 years old I may just have to quit being a baby and deal with it.  I do appreciate everyone’s time and input.  I thank you very much!!!!

ChristineNoel1967

ChristineNoel1967

No owners manual was given with the thermostat.  We do not have central cooling we use window units and the hot water heater is completely separate.  

Jamie Hall

It is quite possible that the new thermostat's calibration differs from that of the old thermostat, @ChristineNoel1967 . Since the temperature readout is just a number, have you tried just raising the set temperature of the new thermostat to see if you can get it to where you are as comfortable as you were with the old one? I know that sounds obvious when I type it out, but... it sometimes works!

ChrisJ

@ChristineNoel1967

Thank you for the pictures.

What do the radiators look like?  Don't go crazy just one or two pictures will work for them unless they're all different styles.

ChristineNoel1967

@Jamie Hall. The problem with raising the thermostat temperature is it makes the house too hot and the floors are still not warm throughout. I am sorry I cannot explain better. We are in a ranch house.  The 2 bedrooms farthest away from the boiler have cool to cold floors where before the thermostat replacement they were warm. The 3rd bedroom and the bathroom were super warm. Thank you for the suggestion. You can never tell what is obvious to one person may not be to another.