steam thermostat advice

Shore_heat2

Hi guys I've been reading here for years and learned a lot from everyone here thanks. I'm working at a four unit apt with a single steam boiler and one thermostat in one apt and the three other apts complain about the one apt being in control of the heat. Is there a way to put sensors in every apt and have one thermostat that the tenants can't mess around with?

Waher

A thermostat could be installed with sensors to take an average reading of all four units. The problem is if one is colder than the others it could fall below a legal minimum temperature depending on how the averaging it set up to trigger the boiler to kick on.

Providing adjustable air vents like Vent Rite No.1s may be a better solution to allow them some individual control of the heating.

Steamhead

Or, switch to an outdoor control such as a Tekmar 279.

EdTheHeaterMan

According the the manual, this thermostat has the ability to use indoor sensor and place the control in a secure location. https://www.supplyhouse.com/Honeywell-Home-TH6220U2000-T6-Pro-Programmable-Thermostat-2H-1C-Heat-Pump-2H-2C-Conventional

Use this sensor and wire it to the wires in the room where the thermostat used to be. https://www.supplyhouse.com/Honeywell-Home-C7189U1005-VisionPRO-Remote-Indoor-Sensor-Wired

Then connect the other end of the sensor wires that end in the boiler room to the SS terminals on the T6 thermostat. Then all the control is in the boiler room, only the sensor is in the apartment.

Shore_heat2

Thanks for the quick response the system is two pipe steam so no air vents . We also just had a problem with the boiler suddenly pressurizing and blowing water out the main vents due to half of the radiators being shut off.  after opening all valves the boiler doesn't pressurize anymore This is why I'm trying to figure out a better way to control this system

guzzinerd

You need a pressuretrol if the pressure builds up like that.  I'm in a similar situation, 6 apts and one boiler on a 2 pipe steam system. 

With help of this forum I was able to tune it with proper vents and new traps so that everyone gets the same temps at the same time.  The t-stat is in my mom-in-law's unit.  I keep the temps just a tad on the cool side so people can use a small space heater if needed.  No complaints.

Shore_heat2

It has a pressuretrol set to 1lb I was watching it when it happened it jumped to 1 lb in five seconds then it shut off. This system when all the valves are open runs with no pressure and doesn't spit water for years since I installed the boiler but a new tenant in apt with thermostat shut all valves off causing this problem. 

Shore_heat2

Thanks Ed I like that idea but I would prefer if I could put sensors in all four apts is it possible with that setup. We also found out during inspection that thermostat apt is also running an ac in winter so there's also that to contend with

EdTheHeaterMan

You can purchase 4 sensors. There is instructions in the manual that describes how to wire multiple sensors.

Steamhead

What model Crown is that?

109A_5

Hello @Shore_heat2,
Here is a sensor idea building from @EdTheHeaterMan's idea. 11000 or 12000 Ohms would probably work so the goofy tenants actual temperatures won't mess up the average for the thermostat. However it still will not solve your newly acquired oversized boiler issue. Probably need a time limiting duty cycle timer or a vaporstat and delay timer so the boiler can't build pressure.

Shore_heat2

The boiler is in the 250k range and worked fine for years with no pressure ever seen on the gauge until the new tenant shut all her radiators off.  That made the boiler then be oversized once we got in and opened all valves it doesn't build pressure anymore it now runs dead silent as it should.  We tried to explain this to them but of course there's a language barrier.  If I understand correctly the four sensors would average out so the thermostat would respond if 1or 2 apts would get cold and fire the boiler?

SteamingatMohawk

Can you control the heat by having the thermostat in a different apartment?

Honeywell has a thermostat that wirelessly connects to a control panel. This allows the thermostat to be moved wherever needed anywhere in the building without dealing with hard wiring. Also, that thermostat has the capability of connecting to the internet to a computer or cell phone by using a gateway hard wired to a router.

I am going through a heating system "behavior" issue with a tenant as we speak.

Between the differences in each apartment, size, location, prevailing winds, northern/southern exposure, heated and unheated adjacent walls/ceiling, it can be challenging to balance all apartments. Further, the spring and fall of the year are challenging because of the swings in temperature and changing heat losses as the system cools down after each cycle depending on outside temperature.

One theory of steam heating is to have the "lone" thermostat in the coldest room of the house. Once that room is satisfied, you can then balance the others. Depending on how the balancing works out, since the apartments all share the same heat source, you might have to adjust the radiator in the room with the thermostat. This is a nice thing to say, but it applies to one pipe systems with vents on the radiators.

I have no experience with two pipe systems, so the experts on them can provide legitimate advice.

Jamie Hall

My only comment on systems with two pipe radiators -- the fundamental principle once the mains and dry returns are vented is to start with the coldest space wide open and then slow down the overperforming radiators. Whish is easy to do, since with a two pipe system you can just close down the inlet valve to the degree needed.

Shore_heat2

Jamie you're absolutely right but we have no control of the valves the tenants don't listen to us to just not touch anything they do whatever they want. A few of them even run window ac units in winter. The tenants change all the time so whichever apt it's in we can have the same problem unfortunately

Jamie Hall

Shore_heat2 said:

Jamie you're absolutely right but we have no control of the valves the tenants don't listen to us to just not touch anything they do whatever they want. A few of them even run window ac units in winter. The tenants change all the time so whichever apt it's in we can have the same problem unfortunately

One of many reasons why I wouldn't be a landlord on a bet...

This overall topic has come up before, and oddly it seems to be easier to manage in bigger operations -- the vagaries of the tenants tend to average out, I suppose.

Sometimes the best arrangement is to have a single thermostat in a common area which is known to be among the cooler, if not the coolest, in the building -- if you can figure out either a remote sensor with the actual control in the mechanical room (Honeywell makes some like that) or can keep fiddling fingers off it, and set that to maintain the legal minimum temperature for your structure.

Not much you can do, realistically, on a small system (four unit or so) to have some fresh air fiend turn off the heat in their space and throw the boiler sizing way out of whack...

guzzinerd

Jamie Hall said:

Jamie you're absolutely right but we have no control of the valves the tenants don't listen to us to just not touch anything they do whatever they want. A few of them even run window ac units in winter. The tenants change all the time so whichever apt it's in we can have the same problem unfortunately

One of many reasons why I wouldn't be a landlord on a bet... This overall topic has come up before, and oddly it seems to be easier to manage in bigger operations -- the vagaries of the tenants tend to average out, I suppose. Sometimes the best arrangement is to have a single thermostat in a common area which is known to be among the cooler, if not the coolest, in the building -- if you can figure out either a remote sensor with the actual control in the mechanical room (Honeywell makes some like that) or can keep fiddling fingers off it, and set that to maintain the legal minimum temperature for your structure. Not much you can do, realistically, on a small system (four unit or so) to have some fresh air fiend turn off the heat in their space and throw the boiler sizing way out of whack...

I never thought I'd be a landlord until this building came up for sale.  Really enjoy maintaining it and the tenants love it so much they never complain.  All they do is notify me when there's the occasional drip.
Consider myself very lucky.

109A_5

Hello @Shore_heat2,
The way I see it you just need to make your appropriately sized boiler system Tenant proof. A Vaporstat and a timer is probably the easiest way.

Also put sensors in all four apartments. Put the thermostat and 4 switches and 4 fixed resistors in the the boiler room. That way you can select which apartment is not part of the temperature averaging algorithm. And you are prepared when the problem switches to another apartment, just flip a switch or two, too easy.

Shore_heat2

Thank you all I will talk to the owner and hopefully he will make the right decision and fix this mess.

Shore_heat2

And guzzinerd you are very lucky I could tell many horrific tenant stories it's truly amazing what they can come up with.

109A_5

Hello @Shore_heat2,
Four sensors throughout the building will average what the central thermostat will react to. Four sensors will not do much to fix if the building otherwise heats unevenly. If all four apartments have active sensors and one apartment is exceptionally cold the boiler would run more warming the other three apartments to balance the sensor array to match the central thermostat setting.

With the problem apartment having a fixed resistor at the 'normal' target temperature the central thermostat will only react to the average of the other three apartments.

Or you could pick a single reference apartment. And the others may be happy since they have a sensor on the wall.

AdmiralYoda

I can't speak for the more professional sensor/thermostat setups but I have an Ecobee and it works pretty good with steam. I have 5 sensors sprinkled throughout our house and have the thermostat set to use the "average" house temperature.

I can view what each sensor is reading for a temperature online or even on my phone. If you notice one apartment is drastically off compared to the others you might have found a tenant that is just doing something silly. You can usually have the thermostat ignore that sensor.

Just a homeowner example. My daughter cleaned her room and moved the sensor. It was sitting on her dresser but she moved it to the window sill for some reason. After a week or so I noticed the house felt much warmer than usual but the thermostat still read 68 as the average house temperature. After looking online I noticed her sensor was 15 degrees cooler than the rest so I went and checked on it and it was on the window sill.

If Jim-Bob on the 3rd floor is keeping his windows open and using space heaters in the dead of winter and throwing the whole building off, remote sensors will help you find who the offender is.