New boiler - piping and other issues

jeromizon

I recently purchased a house with a new boiler installed. I have been having issues from the start. Heavy banging, spitting radiators (2 of the 10 piss water if I call for too much heat) and hissing. I am currently trouble shooting and plan on making sure all the radiators are properly pitched and blow down the boiler. I have also replaced some air vents that were old and not working great. My main question and concern, before I start troubleshoot "smaller" issue, is whether the boiler was piped properly.

Some additional info, the pressorsol cut in was originally set to cut in at 1psi and cut out at 5psi. I turned it down to cut in at .5 and cut out at 1.5. This helped with the spitting a bit and the banging but raised a different issue (i don't know if it correlates or was coincidental). When I call for heat, and the boiler turns on, when steam starts to develop the water is the sight glass (set on almost 3/4 full when boiler off), drains completely, triggering the LWCO. Boiler turns off and the sight glass refills (i dont hear the auto fill turn on so I havent figured out if the refill is from the boiler itself or the autofill). The boiler then turns back on. Sometimes this process will repeat and sometimes after it refills and turns back on, the sight glass will drain to only about an inch from the bottom and not trigger the cutoff. I think the far radiators arent getting heat because the LWCO is triggered before there's enough steam to get that far.

Long story short, I have attached pictures of the boiler and the piping. Does this look right? I see no main valve in the system, no skim port for skimming after install and the long pipe on the floor, which i assume the be the wet return, seems suspect. Any insight would be appreciated as I am completely new to steam heating. Thanks.

EdTheHeaterMan

Not a fan of copper pipe on steam boilers, threaded connections allow for movement when the pipes expand and contract. But this is a big NO NO! The water needs to drain in this direction. And it won't go up hill
New Home for you... New Boiler... Who paid for this mess? The previous owner? Is it less than a year old? perhaps the installing contractor is able to offer you some relief. It was their mistake,

jeromizon

Thanks for your reply. Copper would not be my first choice either. I just measured that pipe. The left side is about half an inch lower than the right side. Is this the correct pitch? You call it a mess, which I don't disagree, but is it done improperly? Yea, the seller had it put in less than a year ago.

KC_Jones

Which model boiler is this? I am guessing that piping for the header is the wrong size, if so that could definitely be causing some of the issues you are seeing. So model of boiler and measure the outside diameter of the copper pipe coming out of the boiler.

I agree with Ed the horizontal reduction is a no no, and any decent boiler guy should know it even without a manual. That said, it's specified in the manual to do the reduction in the vertical, so it's wrong.

As far as copper, yes it's wrong, good luck getting them to do proper black pipe. We've even seen the manufacturer ok it on here, they don't like going against any installer. The pipe size is another thing and that shouldn't be up for debate.

The copper across the floor, well the routing of the pipe for function is fine, but I'll be damned if I would want a pipe running right through the middle of the floor like that. It's not if, it's when the pipe will get damaged.

jeromizon

KC_Jones said:

Which model boiler is this? I am guessing that piping for the header is the wrong size, if so that could definitely be causing some of the issues you are seeing. So model of boiler and measure the outside diameter of the copper pipe coming out of the boiler.

It's a Williamson GSA-238. Manual's suggested pipe diameter for the riser is 3", looks like they installed a 2" pipe.

EdTheHeaterMan

your boiler appears to be larger that the GSA-100. The pipe rising from the boiler should be 2-1/2" on the 125 thru 175. But the next question is: "Is the boiler the correct size?" You should have the connected radiator EDR and compare it with the rating plate. If you have 260 sq ft or less EDR ,then your boiler should be the 100. Any bigger and it will short cycle.

The piping appears to be close to correct except for the portion of the header that connects to the equalizer that has a reducer before the pipe turns down. That will cause some noise. But it is only correct IF and only IF the boiler is a GSA-100 or a GSA-075. I believe you have a larger boiler So the piping is all wrong. Too Small!

If you need help counting the EDR, then take some pictures of all your radiators and tell us the dimensions. We can help you.

EdTheHeaterMan

WOW. That is a big boiler. You need to count those radiators.

realliveplumber

Is that spray foam sealing the vent connector to the chimney?

EdTheHeaterMan

I will suggest that you contact the installer and write down everything they say. Get an email address and follow up every conversation with a summary of the conversation as you understood it. You may need these records for the Lawyer(s) This is not going to go well based on the looks of the craftsmanship in this installation. Keep meticulous records with time, date and name of the person you talk to.


Write your findings down and send them to the owner of the installing company in a certified letter with a return receipt. Certified letters means you are serious and you will not be intimidated. The installing contractor MUST make it right or you will have to get someone that can, at the expense of the installing contractor.


You can also contact the Manufacturer’s rep for that boiler and put them on notice that there is a problem and you want it fixed.

EdTheHeaterMan

You can start by asking nicely about the job, and that you just moved in and you have some questions about the companies warranty on the installation. And can they provide a copy of the contract that includes the warranty they provide, and for how long that warranty is good for and what is the start date of the warranty. Some contractors will take responsibility for their mistakes.

I know I did... I also know that the company that purchased my business was not so easy to get a big mistake like this fixed without a lot of hymning and hawing, and saying things like "That's not included".

I Know... this is not what you wanted to hear!

jeromizon

Ed, definitely not what I want to hear haha. But appreciate the response! Is there any specifics as to why it's an improper installation, based on what you can see?

There are 11 radiators. Total of 372.5 EDR

KC_Jones

jeromizon said:

KC_Jones said:

Which model boiler is this? I am guessing that piping for the header is the wrong size, if so that could definitely be causing some of the issues you are seeing. So model of boiler and measure the outside diameter of the copper pipe coming out of the boiler.

It's a Williamson GSA-238. Manual's suggested pipe diameter for the riser is 3", looks like they installed a 2" pipe.

Looks like 2" to me too, if it is, you need it re-piped. I wouldn't bother with anything else until that is done. It's probably sucking water out and unable to properly drain back, the horizontal reduction is adding to that problem.

I'd also be measuring all the radiators to confirm proper sizing, if they got piping wrong, I'd be suspect of everything else as well, especially sizing which is a common thing to mess up.

KC_Jones

jeromizon said:

Ed, definitely not what I want to hear haha. But appreciate the response! Is there any specifics as to why it's an improper installation, based on what you can see?

There are 11 radiators. Total of 372.5 EDR

That boiler is rated for 621 sq ft. Not only is it oversized, it's grossly oversized and the wrong pipe size. Seriously, if it's possible to get this to run right ever, I'm not sure how.

At the very most you needed the GSA-150

What you have is this. GSA-238
Gross input is 238,000
efficiency is 82.0%
Gross output is 195,000
You need 89,400 by your EDR numbers
So your pickup amount is 105,600 or 118%, it's supposed to me 33% or 29,500 in your case.

I'm pretty sure I'd be threatening a lawsuit at this point if they didn't rip it out and have a complete do over, correctly sized boiler and all. You may never get this to work right no matter what. If they won't replace the boiler I'd demand an oversized drop header (3" risers, 4" header) to give a bit of a chance to get the steam right and add volume to the system to act as a buffer.

This whole thing is just sad.

dabrakeman

That boiler is rated for 621sqft of steam. IF you have only 372.5sqft of connected radiators then you are way way oversized.

dabrakeman

You should have a GSA-150. 2 1/2" piping would be OK for the proper size boiler.

realliveplumber

That boiler probably did'nt have a permit either.

Where are you located in New Jersey?

jeromizon

To calculate the EDR I used this guide https://smithfieldsupply.com/company_info/forms/radiatorest.pdf. I don't know if that's right.

I have 11 radiators:

Three of them are 3 Column radiators with a height of 26". Total of 36 sections.

Eight of them are cast iron radiators (like these https://castironradiatorsusa.com/products/cast-iron-radiator-w-grill-20-h-x-18-l-x-5-w-8-sections) with a height of 20" and depth of 5". Total of 106 sections.

KC_Jones

I get the same EDR as you, even if you were off 30-50% the boiler is grossly oversized.

Jamie Hall

On top of the boiler problems... and I don't like the long horizontal leg above the "header" either, by the way -- do you have any main venting at all? A boiler that big if going to need a lot of main venting, even if the mains themselves aren't that long.

jeromizon

I have searched and search and as far as I can tell, no main vents at all.

RTW

If you go the legal route as suggested in comments, consider naming in your Home Inspector as a defendant in your suit as well and check the report you were provided as to inspector's comments on this "mess" prior to the closing. Everything I've read on this site over the years states " Never Use Copper" in this manner. Lastly, since the job was done less than a year ago, was the warranty on this "mess "the seller had installed transferred to you at time of sale? You may find an Installer/Expert on this site that qualifies as an expert and has testified in court on improper installations. Regards and good luck

JUGHNE

Could we see the piping from the front of the boiler, left to right.
You will have to back up to show it.

There is something about that old existing iron piping that seems different.

Jamie Hall

At least some of the problems you mention could be at least reduced if you had adequate main venting. See if you can trace the main -- or, possibly, mans in the house to see where they go, and see how they end. It may be possible to add venting to them.

What this will do is allow the air to get out of the system faster -- much faster -- when the boiler fires up, and may help with the water disappearing problem, and certainly will help with the hissing radiator vents.

AdmiralYoda

Legal woes aside...at least YOU didn't dish out the cash directly for this, the previous owner did. Like others said it is insanely oversized and near boiler piping is wrong. All things that will make for an unhappy experience.

An oversized boiler, even grossly oversized isn't the end of the world. It will still heat your house. What it will do is build pressure much faster than your radiators can condense it and it will lead to short cycling. Not an un-safe thing...more of an annoyance as it should not happen when properly sized.

Back to your original questions. You mentioned that the spitting and hissing slowed down when you lowered the Pressuretrol. Good. What is the status of your main venting? You should have plenty of venting per each main. Probably an antler of Gorton #2's on each main.

Your new problem, when the water disappears after a long cycle...triggers the LWCO and then refills by draining...sounds like your boiler is full of contaminants. It is called "Surging".

All the solder, manufacturing process oils in the new boiler, etc leads to oils and gunk in the boiler water. The water will become turbulent, start to foam and then shoot up into mains. It usually accompanies some banging and then returns to the boiler once the LWCO shuts things down.

Can you post a close up picture of your site glass? I can tell it is dirty but not sure if it is normal boiler rusty water or something worse. Based on what I've seen of the boiler install I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't skim the boiler. And taking a look at your pictures again I don't see a skim port. Mind taking a picture of the other side of the boiler? Is there a skim port?

A proper skimming and cleaning may help you out a lot. If you don't have adequate main venting then fixing that may help too.

Fixing that may help you heat your house without major headaches but you will never be happy with it. At best you can re-pipe the boiler per the manufacturers recommendations, but at the end of the day your boiler is just insanely too big.

I'm also not a fan of the yellow flexible gas line.

jeromizon

There are no main vents. Additionally, you are correct in that the boiler was not skimmed as it has no skim port. 

I think at the very least I’m going to have to repipe the near boiler piping with properly sized black pipe, get rid of the ridiculous header configuration, raise the header by about a foot and add main vents. I don’t know who installed it so I will have to get that information from the seller. Hopefully there is some sort of warranty that transferred over. 

I’m honestly not confident about the installer being willing to replace the oversized boiler, or correct any of these issues (not that I’m even sure I want them too). But you never know. 

pecmsg

What you have is not the end of the world for now. 

Choose your contractor wisely. 

Where is this boiler?

AdmiralYoda

jeromizon said:

There are no main vents. Additionally, you are correct in that the boiler was not skimmed as it has no skim port.

Is there a port on the opposite side of the boiler? If you are handy, install a skim port yourself and learn to do it. It is very simple and the pro's on here can walk you through it. That will probably solve 90% of your short-term issues. It will likely get rid of the banging and water spitting.

The main vents will also help a lot. Chances are your system had some at some point. See if you can find a plug where someone removed a vent. If may help in the short term to have a plumber install the proper fitting in the copper return if one belongs there. You don't need a steam pro for that. It will be temporary until you re-pipe the boiler anyways.

My 2 cents. Skim the heck out of the boiler then use a cleaner to help remove any leftover oils like Hercules Scout. Keep it in there for a few days to a week and flush, then repeat.

Wait until heating season is winding down to re-pipe the boiler if possible. The pro's that will properly re-pipe are going to be busy this time of year. If you are interested in replacing the boiler with something more properly sized that is the time.

Whatever you do....have a steam guy do the work. Preferably one well known around here. They are few and far between these days.

hadeone

Off topic but should a flexible gas line line that be used for the boiler?

JUGHNE

Depends upon local code, those who have jurisdiction.
I don't believe you can run it thru the boiler casing, it is CSST not an appliance connector.

Just another "git er done" part of the project. IMO

EBEBRATT-Ed

The saddest part is that the "contractor" put in an oversized boiler and piped it wrong.

If he had put in the right size boiler and piped it right he would have had money left over. The money he would have saved on a smaller boiler would have paid for the correct piping.

All they have to do is read the manual.

ChrisJ

JUGHNE said:

Depends upon local code, those who have jurisdiction. I don't believe you can run it thru the boiler casing, it is CSST not an appliance connector. Just another "git er done" part of the project. IMO

That looks like an appliance connector to me?

STEAM DOCTOR

My apologies if this has already been addressed. The circled pipe should pitch towards the header. Otherwise you will have water pooling in that pipe. As it is you have water pooling in the header, due to that reducing "T".

STEAM DOCTOR

Not a big fan of the tape on the flu pipe. And why does that coupling by the pressure relief valve, look rusty?

jeromizon

AdmiralYoda said:

Is there a port on the opposite side of the boiler? If you are handy, install a skim port yourself and learn to do it. It is very simple and the pro's on here can walk you through it. That will probably solve 90% of your short-term issues. It will likely get rid of the banging and water spitting.

The main vents will also help a lot. Chances are your system had some at some point. See if you can find a plug where someone removed a vent. If may help in the short term to have a plumber install the proper fitting in the copper return if one belongs there. You don't need a steam pro for that. It will be temporary until you re-pipe the boiler anyways.

My 2 cents. Skim the heck out of the boiler then use a cleaner to help remove any leftover oils like Hercules Scout. Keep it in there for a few days to a week and flush, then repeat.

Wait until heating season is winding down to re-pipe the boiler if possible. The pro's that will properly re-pipe are going to be busy this time of year. If you are interested in replacing the boiler with something more properly sized that is the time.

Whatever you do....have a steam guy do the work. Preferably one well known around here. They are few and far between these days.

There is a port and originally installing a skim port was the the first thing on my list before all the other issues were raised. Now that I know the size of the boiler is an issue, I'm hesitant to install the skim port until talking to the installer. I dont want them to say "well we would have replaced it with the proper sized boiler but you worked on it, voiding our warranty."

I find the lack of main vents concerning and that is something I will definitely address. But Im having trouble seeing where they would have gone. Obviously a much bigger project if I have to repipe to install them.

Would installing faster venting air vents (e.g. varivalve) on all the radiators be an effective temporary solution to the lack of main vents issue until I am able to install the main vents?

ethicalpaul

I find the lack of main vents concerning and that is something I will definitely address. But Im having trouble seeing where they would have gone. Obviously a much bigger project if I have to repipe to install them.

Not necessarily. You can drill and tap your main to install one.

Would installing faster venting air vents (e.g. varivalve) on all the radiators be an effective temporary solution to the lack of main vents issue until I am able to install the main vents?

That would help with the "speed to get steam to the radiators" problem, but would probably cause a new problem of "balancing where the steam goes to provide even heating throughout the house"

Rusty2

I don't know what the pro's say, but the first thing I would get rid of (replace) is that yellow flexible gas line. Does the "code" say it's OK to use that on a boiler?

It is evident that the installer didn't follow or read the installation instructions for your boiler. He made the decision to intentionally disregard them. This is a big "tell" regarding his judgement, character and integrity IMHO. Some things that he did might not be dangerous or might not kill anybody. Other things are very dangerous, like pinholes in a plastic covered flexible gas line that he may or may not have inspected very well or tested based on his general disregard for everything else he did.

I generally don't chime in on something technical because I'm not a professional, but if I have the chance to save someone's life I will open my big mouth at the risk being reprimanded for my ignorance.

EBEBRATT-Ed

It looks like an appliance connector and not CSST to me. To me if it is a fixed appliance and is not moved for cleaning like a gas stove it ought to be black pipe. But Gee, that takes more work just like the steam piping.

Maybe it is just me (it probably is)

But some of these newer piping systems don't agree with me because I am old: The whole trade is focused on doing things faster and cheaper....I get it prices are high....but to me the quality slips.....guess no one cares about that anymore. It's not a surprise we get these kind of installs

Propress, megapress, pex, PVC, CSST.

The only one I hate is CSST. The stuff is like tinfoil. I don't think it should have ever been approved or allowed. Gas is just too hazardous.

I wonder if it is allowed in NYC with their strict gas laws. Maybe @Mad Dog_2 will comment

Rusty2

Ed I agree. There have been explosions with this stuff. It can have pin holes. The CSST installer is responsible to ensure that it is bonded (grounded with 6 AWG copper) for lightning strikes in accordance with local practices and code. This is to be done by an electrician. I've read that electricians don't want to do it because of the safety hazard.

This has been the case since 2006 and the old installations are not grandfathered in. All the CSST installed before 2006 is supposed to be bonded retroactively. A retired electrician, working in the electrical dept. at a Home Depot (where they sold the stuff to anybody) once told me he would never use it because it was not to be trusted.

The National Association of State Fire Marshals have a safety campaign to make homeowners who had CSST installed before 2006 aware of the bonding requirement. Inspectors are required to be aware of this.

jeromizon

how do you tell the difference between an appliance connector and CSST? It has "ANSI Z21.24" on the ring on the nut which I believe is the standard for gas appliance connectors. Are you concerned that it's just random CSST tubing? If so, I don't think that's the case. If it is a gas appliance connector, does that alleviate concerns?

ChrisJ

jeromizon said:

how do you tell the difference between an appliance connector and CSST? It has "ANSI Z21.24" on the ring on the nut which I believe is the standard for gas appliance connectors. Are you concerned that it's just random CSST tubing? If so, I don't think that's the case. If it is a gas appliance connector, does that alleviate concerns?

It's not CSST.

 

clammy

There’s only one thing to say and the copper says it all aside from being piped incorrectly and being over sized . Aside from replacement to a properly sized boiler and proper near boiler piping and addiction of main venting it s a total redo unfortunately . You could waste a boat load of money keep it repipe it add a vapor stat and 2 stage gas valve and yet you will still be left w a boiler what twice or more then what’s needed . Being you where not the home owner when it was installed I highly doubt you ll get anything from the installation contractor or manafacture never seen it happen not there issue ,was permit and inspection performed and even so it’s not there issue . Being it so over sized I would think you de be better off having a properly sized boiler installed and get all the piping mess corrected or live w it and come spring get it all replaced w whatever system you would desire hot water ,hot air w ac it’s all depends on the pocket book . Your fuel bills will be higher w a boiler that over sized n even w a two stage gas valve you still may suffer from short cycling . You could have what ever contractor leave the boiler and maybe some one will take it buy it or donate it other wise it just a expensive boat anchor being no right minded contractor would re install some where else at least not me .. not worth it . Don’t feel so bad I see at least a few drastically oversized willamsons a season I think it required to install one and yes there just about always piped wrong in copper and always oversized it the 3 most common issues sized wrong ,piped wrong and wrong material only thing they had right for sure was the price being it was the lowest that can across the door . Correctly done the price would have been to high plus they where not staying so they did not care leave it to the next owner hence where you are unfortunely . As other suggested try the find a pro in your area . At least someone will tell the truth .
Peace and good luck clammy