Burnham Independent Near-Boiler Piping - Seeking Advice

milesgem

Hello!

I’m a homeowner with a steam system for the first time. I’ve learned a lot in the past two months but am still a novice. I’d love to hear this group’s opinion about the near boiler piping on my Burnham Independence IN41.

The short story is: Our boiler is less than two years old and has evidence of carryover (read below for details). My trusted plumber believes the near-boiler piping is incorrect and is causing wet steam to be pulled into the main. My boiler’s installer says that the near boiler piping is fine; that while it doesn’t match the I/O diagram exactly, that’s OK because the header piping is subjective.

I managed to chat with an engineer from U.S. Boiler Co. He wouldn't state an ideal or max. length for the header assembly but did admit that the more the pipe zig zags to the equalizer, the harder the water has to work to travel to it.

What do you think about the discrepancy between the I/O diagram (attached) and my piping?






System details:

• We have a one-pipe steam system
  
• Gas-fired boiler is a Burnham Independence IN41
  
• Boiler was installed in February 2022 after a 10-year old Utica boiler cracked. The only near boiler piping that was changed during the install was the horizontal header that connects directly into the steam main. Our radiator vents were also replaced at that time.
  
• Our 1500 square foot home (two levels) has 6 convector radiators
  

Course of events:

• We’ve had water hammer since the day the Burnham boiler was installed, most noticeable near two of our radiators (one on the first floor, one on the second).
  
• Our boiler was last skimmed by the installer during annual maintenance in October 2022.
  
• In November, during an unrelated plumbing job, our plumber—who was not the person who installed our boiler—noticed that our radiator vents were hissing loudly. The hissing had been continuous, for up to 20-30 min at a time. Our plumber suggested we replace the offending radiator vents because they were venting steam, costing us $$ in wasted fuel.
  
• A few days later, he replaced the radiator vents with Vent Rite #31 (⅛” inch male). The 18-mo. old vents that he took off were severely corroded (see video for example). After replacing the vents, the continuous hissing stopped immediately. Woohoo!
  
• A couple of days after that, three of our radiators stopped heating. The hypothesis is that the new vents became clogged.
  
• Our plumber came back and spent some time looking at our boiler system. He observed a few things:
  • Near boiler piping header assembly: The header pipe runs at least 2 ft. before dropping into the equalizer.
    
  • Sight glass: Surging. At one point, the water level dropped to just above the min. water line. Water was dirty (rust colored). (see video of surging from later that day; water in this video does not drop as low)
    
  • Main vent: It spat water during the heat cycle.
    
  Our plumber’s hypothesis is that wet steam is being pulled into the system because the near-boiler piping is not consistent with the I/O manual.

• I called the boiler installer and explained this course of events. The installer came back to skim the boiler again. Water in sight glass was now clear.
  
• The boiler returned a few days later with a rep from his heating supplyhouse (his “steam guy” to look specifically at the near boiler piping:
  
• The rep said that he did not see an issue with the near boiler piping. And that, while our piping from header to equalizer deviates from what's in the I/O manual diagram (it's longer and snakes), those specs are subjective.
  
• The rep called out that our main vents are not well positioned, and recommended they be re-configured (place two 18 in. back from the end of the dry return)
  
• The rep noticed that auto water feeder’s count is high (331 gallons)
  
• He looked at our radiators and saw that at least one is not correctly pitched; radiator is level.
  

We are going to try out these recommended fixes (main vents + radiator pitch) but I’m skeptical. Given the auto water feeder’s reading, the corrosion on the vents that were replaced in November, the surging, and residual water hammer near one radiator, it seems clear that there’s water moving through the system that shouldn’t be, and that it’s not equalizing.

I have two concerns:

1. At minimum, I need my steam system to work reliably, efficiently, and quietly.
   
2. I don't want to risk the manufacturer not honoring our warranty, due to the near-boiler pipe, should there ever be an issue with the boiler.
   

Thank you all for your questions, comments, and guidance.

ethicalpaul

There's a lot to unpack here, but here are my initial thoughts:

- I don't see evidence of surging in your video. If the water was dirty before, and dropped to the bottom of the gauge glass as you describe, that was probably surging. But if you're not surging now, I'd stop looking at the near boiler piping as a cause--it was probably the dirty water that was the cause. (see next point)
- Your near boiler piping layout looks reasonable. I'm not sure if your boiler is supposed to have two steam supplies, or just a single one like you have. (edit: I checked and 1 is OK according to Burnham). No manufacturer would void your warrantee due to the piping I think--they won't even express concern about piping that is WAY worse than yours. (My opinion, they are afraid to speak against installers).
- The radiator/convector pitch is important, but even more important is the pitch of the pipes supplying them. Can you localize where the banging is coming from? It can be difficult. Unless condensate can drain back to the boiler, it will remain in the pipes and cause banging and/or "killing" of steam to that area.
- What the Burnham engineer said to you is weird. Water/steam zig-zagging to the header or equalizer is not a concern I have. In fact, that additional travel serves to let water droplets separate from the steam better. Also, if your water quality is decent, basically no water will be coming up the supply anyway. If the water is good, the header is basically unused in its purpose to separate water from steam because there is no water getting in there.
- The hissing radiator vents are a concern and could have led to your high water usage. But it might not be the vents' fault. Do you know what pressure your system gets to? Can you supply a photo of your Pressuretrol so we can see the settings? You want it set to basically the minimum pressure.
- Related to above, how was the boiler sized? Did the installer calculate the total sq ft of radiation in your house? That is necessary to ensure a properly-sized boiler. Too big a boiler will result in it building pressure too fast and cycling on pressure, which makes some people want to increase the Pressuretrol setting. DON'T DO IT

"and that it’s not equalizing." What does this mean to you?

"Main vent: It spat water during the heat cycle." Can you be more specific? Can we see your main vents?

EBEBRATT-Ed

The water feeder count is concerning. This could be from leaking vents or other issues.

milesgem

@ethicalpaul

The radiator/convector pitch is important, but even more important is the pitch of the pipes supplying them. Can you localize where the banging is coming from? It can be difficult. Unless condensate can drain back to the boiler, it will remain in the pipes and cause banging and/or "killing" of steam to that area.

It sounds like it's coming from the radiator, as if the vent is spinning around. But I also know that the source of water hammer is not always where you hear it. Need to do more investigating.

What the Burnham engineer said to you is weird. Water/steam zig-zagging to the header or equalizer is not a concern I have. In fact, that additional travel serves to let water droplets separate from the steam better. Also, if your water quality is decent, basically no water will be coming up the supply anyway. If the water is good, the header is basically unused in its purpose to separate water from steam because there is no water getting in there.

Thanks for the callout. Re: water quality, I'm north of Boston in a town known for its hard water.

Do you know what pressure your system gets to? Can you supply a photo of your Pressuretrol so we can see the settings? You want it set to basically the minimum pressure.

Edit: Photos attached. I'll add a photo when I'm back home but it's 0.5 psi with a 1 psi differential. I adjusted the cut-in earlier a few days ago after noticing it was between 0.5 and 1.

Related to above, how was the boiler sized? Did the installer calculate the total sq ft of radiation in your house? That is necessary to ensure a properly-sized boiler. Too big a boiler will result in it building pressure too fast and cycling on pressure, which makes some people want to increase the Pressuretrol setting. DON'T DO IT

Unfortunately I don't know how it was sized. We had it installed before I knew anything about steam... regrettably I didn't ask all the great questions Dan calls out in We Got Steam Heat!.

STEAM DOCTOR

It's not likely that it's drastically oversized. The in-4 is not all that big. Definitely check the pitch on the header piping.

ethicalpaul

It sounds like it's coming from the radiator, as if the vent is spinning around.

OK yes see if you can find out specifically where it's coming from. To assist you, you can usually rotate a vent upside down to prevent it from venting. This is a way to see if the water hammer stops when you don't allow steam to get to a suspect radiator. I'm not sure what you mean by "as if the vent is spinning around" though...

Thanks for the callout. Re: water quality, I'm north of Boston in a town known for its hard water.

I didn't mean it that way, I meant if your boiler water is dirty and/or with oil on top, that is what can cause surging.

milesgem

STEAM DOCTOR said:

It's not likely that it's drastically oversized. The in-4 is not all that big. Definitely check the pitch on the header piping.

Will do. Should the header be level or slightly pitched down to the equalizer? I can't recall reading any recommendations for the header, only for the main and returns.

milesgem

ethicalpaul said:

It sounds like it's coming from the radiator, as if the vent is spinning around.

OK yes see if you can find out specifically where it's coming from. To assist you, you can usually rotate a vent upside down to prevent it from venting. This is a way to see if the water hammer stops when you don't allow steam to get to a suspect radiator. I'm not sure what you mean by "as if the vent is spinning around" though...

Thanks for the callout. Re: water quality, I'm north of Boston in a town known for its hard water.

I didn't mean it that way, I meant if your boiler water is dirty and/or with oil on top, that is what can cause surging.

Ah, yeah, I misunderstood about the water. Got it now.

I'm away from home for the next few days but will spend some time later this week trying to pinpoint the water hammer. Will come back with any findings.

Also, I'm sorry. I somehow missed your last two questions:

"and that it’s not equalizing." What does this mean to you?

What I mean is that the system is not equalizing - based on the surging I saw with the disappearing water line.

"Main vent: It spat water during the heat cycle." Can you be more specific? Can we see your main vents?

You can see one in a photo I shared above; I circled it here. The vent had water spitting out of the top of it. The boiler had fired up (thermostat was set to 90). My plumber was checking to see if the vent was venting. While we were next to the boiler watching the sightglass, we saw the spitting water come up and out of the vent.

There's a second vent at the other end of the basement that I don't have a photo of. Will take more photos as soon as I can. Thanks!

STEAM DOCTOR

Should pitch toward the equalizer. One of the functions of the header, is to be a drain pipe for the water carried out of the boiler and condensed within the header

neilc

the Ptrol setting, the near boiler piping, look good,
what are you seeing on the gage though?
is the gage raising above 1, 1.5, 2 ?

gfrbrookline

See below

gfrbrookline

After looking at pic three from your original post your main vent is spitting because it is in the wrong place. It is on a steam return which is fine but it is below the drop down where it turns into a wet return it needs to be installed before the 90 degree elbow drops down and on a nipple that gives it six inches of clearance above the return.

gfrbrookline

cid:D6BC7615-A0D5-47A4-8395-06DCAA21ADB1

This is what the vent piping should look like. the vent is spitting because it is placed below the water level of the pipes that drain into it.

gfrbrookline

Sorry pic didn't copy. Vents need to be high and dry. Your vent is where the blue tape is in the pic and that is why it is spitting water. This will cause all types of problems with heat imbalances, hammering etc. Move your main vents and install at least gorton No.1's and your problems should be resolved.

gfrbrookline

The vent needs to be installed right after the pipe hanger on the return in pic 1.

Steamhead

What size is the equalizer?

milesgem

Thanks to everyone for their questions and guidance. I'm catching up after being away last week.

@STEAM DOCTOR : Aha. The header is level, not pitched.

@neilc : The gauge has been as high as 4, 4.5 psi. Even though the cut in is 0.5 psi + 1 differential. The boiler shuts down before it gets to 5 psi.

@gfrbrookline : Thank you. Our boiler installer came back today to reconfigure the vents. Here is the new set up: two Vent Rite no. 77.
From your comment, "The vent needs to be installed right after the pipe hanger on the return in pic 1," it sounds like we got the location correct. Our contractor capped the main vent closest to the boiler and kept this rogue vent at the end of the return.

Here's a photo of the return for context.

@Steamhead : The equalizer pipe circumference is 5.5". So if I calculated it correctly, the diameter is 1.75". The min. requirement per U.S. Boiler is 1.5"

milesgem

Here's where things stand:

- Contractor re-configured main vents as described above.
- Also added shims to 3 radiators to pitch them correctly.
- Reset auto feeder to "0". The theory from the contractor is that the high reading was because his guys failed to bypass the auto-feeder during several visits to skim the boiler over the past 20 months.

Despite these repairs and changes, the system is still not operating reliably or effectively:
- One of the 2nd floor radiators is not heating up. Although it did for a very short while the contractor was here.
- Another 2nd floor radiator vent is spitting water. Saw it happen 3x so far this evening, here's a video. I'm pretty sure this is the water hammer I thought I was hearing, @ethicalpaul.
- One of new main vents (Vent Rite #77) has been hissing for 2+ minutes while the boiler was running and continued for a bit after the boiler shut off. Is that normal?
- The pressure gauge is climbing to 4.5 psi despite the pressuretrol settings. I'm thinking there's one of two things: Either the gauge is accurate and the system pressure is higher than it should be. Or, the gauge is faulty. Is there another possibility? I asked my contractor about the gauge pressure twice now, and he wasn't concerned. Edit: I was reading some posts on the forum and it seems a clogged/dirty pig tail can cause issues with the ptrol not cutting out at the set pressure.

So I have a radiator vent spitting water, vents that are presumably clogged and preventing the radiator from heating, and a higher than expected system pressure. I'm concerned that wet steam is being pulled into the system and causing these system-wide issues. Any suggestions for where to go from here?

pedmec

there are two issues that can be causing your problem that i think you need investigating

Water quality. If you have too much TDS, or oil in the water you can get some carryover. Sometimes skimming just doesn't cut it unfortunately. you might have to chemical clean it and then drain it and add fresh water.

The other is you have a plugged return and you're holding water in the piping. The counter, if correct, is really concerning. hopefully the installers assessment about his guys skimming is true. you will find out real fast by watching it.

Steamhead

Vent-Rite #77 vents are pretty small. How long are the steam mains going to those vents, and what pipe size?

Mad Dog_2

Mad Dog's Two Cents...and to add to my colleagues. 1) That Relief Valve is in the wrong position. 2) Not a High Qaulity Main Vent (Hoffman or Gorton) 3) It's just me, but I put a Tee with at drain at EVERY low point of a,Steam boiler and wet returns, instead of Elbows. A Never use the plugs that come with the boiler. I'll atleast throw a nipple & cap in as a Future & Splunck purge. 4) Last, I always install a Gate Valve on Drop out of the Hartford Loop connecting to the wet returns  Its the ONLY way to get all the Muddy Splunck out. Mad Dog 🐕 

milesgem

pedmec said:

there are two issues that can be causing your problem that i think you need investigating

Water quality. If you have too much TDS, or oil in the water you can get some carryover. Sometimes skimming just doesn't cut it unfortunately. you might have to chemical clean it and then drain it and add fresh water.

The other is you have a plugged return and you're holding water in the piping. The counter, if correct, is really concerning. hopefully the installers assessment about his guys skimming is true. you will find out real fast by watching it.

Thanks @pedmec, appreciate the insight . If the return is correctly pitched (seems to be), would that help avoid the issue?

milesgem

Steamhead said:

Vent-Rite #77 vents are pretty small. How long are the steam mains going to those vents, and what pipe size?

@Steamhead Bear with me. How do I determine the the length of steam mains? I have partial visibility (basement is unfinished) but would be estimating the approx. lengths from basement ceiling to each radiator.

Mad Dog_2

Get a close approximation.  That's fine.  Mad Dog 🐕 

milesgem

Mad Dog_2 said:

Mad Dog's Two Cents...and to add to my colleagues.  1) That Relief Valve is in the wrong position. 2) Not a High Qaulity Main Vent (Hoffman or Gorton) 3) It's just me, but I put a Tee with at drain at EVERY low point of a,Steam boiler and wet returns, instead of Elbows. A Never use the plugs that come with the boiler.  I'll atleast throw a nipple & cap in as a Future & Splunck purge. 4) Last, I always install a Gate Valve on Drop out of the Hartford Loop connecting to the wet returns   Its the ONLY way to get all the Muddy Splunck out.  Mad Dog 🐕 

Thanks for all insight.

RE: 1) Could you say more? I'm unsure of the correct position.

Here are better pics of the relief valve. Also dug up the manufacturer's diagram.




Edit: Took another look after morning coffee. Is the issue that the valve is positioned horizontally and not vertically?


RE: 4) Is this the location you mean? Still learning my way around.
The contractor did not touch any existing piping except for the header assembly during install. So that Hartford Loop and wet return piping is at least 15 years old... if not older from the previous previous boiler. There's gotta be lots of "splunk" in there.

milesgem

@Mad Dog_2 , @Steamhead : My best estimate is that 99 feet of main piping.

Keep me honest here, please: I measured the insulated main piping you can see in my photos and the additional piping (some of which is not insulated) that leads to each radiator.

The pipe sizes vary, having a hard time getting an estimate because of the insulation. Is there a specific location(s) where it'd be most helpful to know the pipe size? If so, I can remove the insulation. Just don't want to start tearing it down on a whim.

Edit: See below after KC_Jone's post.

KC_Jones

Your main starts here (line I added in red, not the circle)


And it ends here (red)


You do not measure any of the pipes running up to radiators, just the large diameter pipe that runs around the basement.

I'd say you need a lot more main venting. That vent you have is fine if your main was less than 10', but I doubt your main is that short.

I'd still be curious how well the boiler was sized. We can guide you if you wanted to do the measurements, it's really not hard.

Shane_2

Going back to your first couple of pictures, what is going on at the ceiling? Near the sheetrock?

Is it possible the new main from the new boiler splits into two mains? Is there anywhere above that sheetrock where water could sit in the piping?

milesgem

@KC_Jones : *runs back to basement* Awesome, thank you. I have roughly 19.5' of main piping. (give or take 6")

I wedged some string between the insulation to try to measure the pipe diameter: roughly 6-7/8" circum. = so ~2.188" diameter.

Would be grateful for the guidance on how to correctly size the boiler.

As an aside, this forum is just incredible. Thanks to everyone for their patience and willingness to help homeowners like with all these fundamentals.

milesgem

Shane_2 said:

Going back to your first couple of pictures, what is going on at the ceiling? Near the sheetrock?

Is it possible the new main from the new boiler splits into two mains? Is there anywhere above that sheetrock where water could sit in the piping?

Good callout. Totally possible, need to remove or at least cut the sheetrock to see. Will see about doing that this weekend. (The prior owner had big plans to finish basement. I'm not attached to any of the sheetrock or framing. )

KC_Jones

19.5' I'd say at least 2 Gorton #1 vents, which would be about 3.5 times what you currently have.

For reference the main should be fully hot before any radiators start heating, if that's not happening, you need more main venting.

A different test is to take the main vent off entirely, fire the boiler, time it from the time the header is hot, to having steam at the end of the main. Then vent as much as needed to get close to that same time.

Several ways to skin the cat.

As far as sizing you measure the height (from the floor) of each radiator. Then look at what style radiator it is and determine the EDR per section from one of several online charts (I'll have a link to one I use below). Then you pull the EDR per section, multiply by how many section you have on the radiator and you get a total per radiator. Then add up all the radiators EDR and compare that total directly to the rating on the boiler. If you post the results we can help you interpret if it's oversized or not.

You need section 2 about sizing steam boilers, link takes you there.

https://www.weil-mclain.com/sites/default/files/field-file/Weil-McLain_BoilerReplacementGuide_WM2012-web_0.pdf#page=9

ethicalpaul

19.5' is a very short main. I would say a single Maid O Mist or Gorton #1 is fine but two doesn't hurt except your wallet.

I will retroactively respond to @ChrisJ below so as not to increase my number of off-topic posts, but I bet you tested that with a hot main that was just moments ago full of steam. A better test of the need of so many vents would be after a typical cool-down period between calls for heat.

ChrisJ

ethicalpaul said:

19.5' is a very short main. I would say a single Maid O Mist or Gorton #1 is fine but two doesn't hurt except your wallet.

I have five #1's on the end of a 2" 32' main.
It would work with four, but five did seem to give a little improvement.

I have a single #1 on the end of a 2" 11' main.

dabrakeman

If I read correctly the OP now has three Ventrite #77's on the single 20' main so although not quite equal two Gorton #1's I don't think a gross lack of main venting is the issue. More venting is better but I would be more concerned with what the pressure really is and if it indeed is getting up over 4psi then why.

Can you better explain the sequence of events when you say "one of the new main vents is hissing for 2+ minutes and continues to hiss after the boiler shuts off"? The main vent may audibly hiss a bit once the boiler starts producing steam since the steam is now pushing air out of the main through the main vents.
Once the steam reaches the main vent then it should close the main vent and it should stop hissing. Is this not occurring? The boiler should continue to run for some time sending steam to the radiators and when the boiler shuts off steam will collapse and some vacuum will be created in the system and air will be drawn back into the system through open vents. Sometimes this too can cause an audible hiss.

Can your plumber put another gage on the boiler to verify the 4+psi reading? If real then the ptrol is probably shot. How long does it take to get to this high pressure level after the boiler starts creating steam?

BobC

That pressuretrol may need calibrating. There is a tiny (0.050) setscrew on the rocker arm you can adjust to calibrate it at the low end - be careful to only move that set screw in very small steps.

One of our mem,bers published this a while back -

>> Inside the Pressuretrol, right below the micro switch, there is a pivot arm. At the end of that arm you will see a screw pin that is activated by the diaphragm at the bottom of the Pressuretrol. If you look very carefully at that screw pin, you will see it actually has a tiny (I mean tiny) hex head on it. It takes a .050 hex wrench and you can turn it clockwise (Towards the bottom of the Pressuretrol to decrease the Cut-out pressure or counter clockwise to increase the cut-out pressure (which none of us want to do but who knows, your Pressuretrol may be really screwed up!). Turn the power to the unit off first. You may find the first attempt to turn that screw a little bit stubborn (relatively speaking) because it has some Locktite on it but it does turn. Don't turn to much, a fraction of a turn goes a long way towards getting it adjusted where you want it (not even an eighth turn). You may need to play with it to get it exactly where you want cut out to be but at least mine won't run pressure up to 3 Lbs when I have it set to cut-out at 1.5.

Bob

clammy

Just to add the pressuretroll should be removed and calibrated using a good low pressure gauge . I tossed the last one that came w a new boiler cut out was set at 1 cut in .50 and she cut in at .05 but would not cut out at 1 .5 but at 2.5 psi needless to say I tossed it and installed a vapor stat ,needed lower pressure any way but just shows you how good and accurate they are ,not . I’m not a burmhan guy but w only 2 inch tappings I would have used both ,that’s me . The safety valve orientation is wrong just shows you the skill level of your installer newbie or does not care ,just what ya want working on your stuff ,lack of knowledge ,lack of skill using mega press personally on steam is the biggest lack of no skill or caring about anything except getting done quickly and plus it’s just land fill stuff anyway . Just cause ya got a new van ,labeling on the side and advertise does not mean you have a clue at what you’re doing . Personally the piping and the whole install is garbage and unknowing what was paid for said job ,I would only assume the price was fitting for the work done ,as much as the home owner would wish for the gucci everything working marvelously like a new system ,it usually only the boiler that’s new w sub standard piping and craftsmanship . I say this because this is so common that it’s like a cold sore or cracked lip in the winter it’s to the point of the odds of seeing a install that the installer may have giving a Pooh is like a miracle on 43 rd street but that mircale on the street happens more often then seeing a properly installed boiler ,but the properly installed boiler comes w a higher price tag and yet no one ever sees the value until there told to spend more then money or do a total repipe which they would think should cost peanuts . It’s a very tragic comedy to say the least . It s very fair to say w American cars w a 2 years bumper to bumper what’s a cast iron boilers going to be 5 year warranty and out the door .
Again everybody has a personal mantra they recite in there minds and try to live by ,clearly there’s a lot of guys out there that are just hammering garbage out and being they do no service or do any real maintenance being they clearly do not set it up to do so in the future or care to do so . The two important things to them is this one get the money and two get to the next job and repeat . These idiots are why steam system get a bad name . Ok done w the rant .
Peace and good luck clammy