Fred Flinstone's Vacuum Steam Experiment

Rusty2

I recently read something Erin posted several years back, written by Dan's friend and highly regarded vacuum steam expert Igor Zhandanovsky . This led me to try a "Fred Flintstone" type experiment to get steam to reach a distant radiator.
We have a radiator in our (circa 1741) house that's in a 1970's room addition attached to the main house. Like the addition, this radiator was an afterthought to the original single pipe system and some of the other inventions that came along like indoor plumbing and alternating current.

The riser to this lonesome radiator (mostly horizontal but pitched) comes off a 2" main at 45 degrees and is a total of about 26' long. It was piped in 1 1/4" copper. Thinking it might help, I repiped what was in the basement, about 10' with black pipe. The other 16' above ground is still copper and runs along the floor to the radiator, through a closet, ect...ect. Everything is insulated and pitched back to the main that's pitched back to the boiler. The dry returns are insulated too.

Steam very rarely (only when it's really cold) reaches even the first section of this radiator. So I put a Tee at the end of the (insulated) riser right next to the radiator and put a Gorton #2 on it, thinking that would get the air out. Not much happened. Occasionally the #2 would get warm, but rarely hot enough to close.
Then I read Igor's paper about vacuum steam. So I unscrewed the #2 vent and held a small shop vac over the nipple on the Tee. Usually in about 2 seconds or even less I have steam there with the vacuum. The steam is there immediately. It's remarkable how fast this happens. Then I quickly recap the nipple on the Tee and the radiator heats all the way across. Mind you this is not low temperature steam like in Igor's vacuum system.

However in those very few seconds the shop vac is on it sucks a lot of water out of the pipe. Sometimes on the next cycle the radiator will heat without having to use the vacuum. Eventually the LWCO will kick in from all the water taken out that isn't being sent back to the boiler. Even with a well insulated riser and a Gorton #2 right before the radiator steam can't remain as steam and make it all the way there without the help of lower pressure or possibly more steaming time from the boiler. Putting really tiny vents on all the radiators in the house, especially in the room with the thermostat would burn more fuel and extend the steam time. How much longer would the boiler need to steam to reach that one distant radiator by more slowly satisfying all the radiators with tiny vents in the rest of the house? Now the boiler runs for about 20-25 minutes and the house is very comfortable and evenly heated.

So, is there a way to have only one radiator hooked to a vacuum pump (maybe a dental pump) with some way to collect the water and send it back to the boiler? Of course the pump has to somehow know when to turn on and off. This part is over my head. Do you guys have any ideas for the logistics of making this work for only one radiator and leaving the rest of the system as is? Is this possible or am I barking at the wrong school bus? In the meantime I'll continue to use the wood stove in that room.

My apologies for being so long winded.

Thanks

Burnham MegaSteam 513
504 ft.2 of (used radiators) EDR
3 Mains are - 44ft, 49ft, and 50ft.
Big Mouths and Gorton #2s on all 3 mains
There's almost no steam pressure (psi) used to run this system

Sorry, my wife and I tried all morning to "drag and drop" these photos or to attach them another way. Our son should be home in a couple weeks. I'll bet he knows how to do it.

https://connect.xfinity.com/appsuite/api/mail/IMG_2885.jpg?action=attachment&folder=default0/Sent&id=866299&attachment=5&user=2&context=11422818&sequence=1&session=ed2cb22f79ae4dbd93fca076cdc35f49&delivery=view&scaleType=cover&width=120&height=120

https://connect.xfinity.com/appsuite/api/mail/IMG_2886.jpg?action=attachment&folder=default0/Sent&id=866299&attachment=4&user=2&context=11422818&sequence=1&session=ed2cb22f79ae4dbd93fca076cdc35f49&delivery=view&scaleType=cover&width=120&height=120

https://connect.xfinity.com/appsuite/api/mail/IMG_2888.jpg?action=attachment&folder=default0/Sent&id=866299&attachment=2&user=2&context=11422818&sequence=1&session=ed2cb22f79ae4dbd93fca076cdc35f49&delivery=view&scaleType=cover&width=120&height=120

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Rusty2

I realize these photos are very small. This is one of where the Gorton#2 was attached on a Tee right before the radiator.

https://connect.xfinity.com/appsuite/api/mail/IMG_2884.jpg?action=attachment&folder=default0/Sent&id=866299&attachment=6&user=2&context=11422818&sequence=1&session=ed2cb22f79ae4dbd93fca076cdc35f49&delivery=view&scaleType=cover&width=120&height=120

ethicalpaul

I can't see your photos but with what you said about the shop vac sucking water, I would say you have a saggy or low spot in your main or that radiator's supply that is holding water, forming a trap that blocks your steam until a heating cycle has been running for a long time and the steam can get past the now-heated water.

Check for pitch issues and attempt to fix any place you can find where water would collect.

PS: steam will just go wherever the pressure is lowest, so creating a vacuum somewhere in your system will definitely "pull" all the steam from the system directly to that spot. (it's not really "pulling" but it seems like that so I used the inaccurate word).

Rusty2

Thanks Paul. It's not the mains. Everything else in the house heats just fine and I have put a level on everything. There's never been any hammer. That copper "riser" is pitched also, except possibly where it goes through a closet, but I thought I put a level on it and it was OK. I'm pretty sure on Igor's system he has a way to collect any condensation from the pump and direct it to the boiler. I might be able to figure that part out, but don't know how I would actuate a pump on and off automatically at the right time. This would be for one distant radiator only.

109A_5

Hello @Rusty2,
None of the pictures are accessible.

Does that long run drain properly, checked with a level ?

Anyway what I would do;

Small vacuum pump near the boiler and a drain-able accumulator of some sort so condensate water can't get into the vacuum pump. Remove the air vent valve on the far end of the radiator, run a small (but reasonable) tube between the accumulator and where the air vent valve was. This will get the vacuum to the radiator with a minimum of condensate water getting into the vacuum system. And the radiator its self will act as a vacuum accumulator to minimize vacuum pump run time.

Now the tricky part, (and a bare minimum) you need a timing or temperature sensing method so when steam is present at the the main where it branches off to that radiator the vacuum pump it started. It only needs to run for a specific amount of time or when steam is detected at the supply side of the far radiator. Then the vacuum pump is shut off.

There may be other methods and/or enhancements to this method...

109A_5

Rusty2 said:

but don't know how I would actuate a pump on and off automatically at the right time.

Temperature sensors, timers. Google Omron and Omega, many out there, many other brands too, new and used, eBay.

Rusty2

Thanks 109A_5 - I agree, that's the tricky part.

109A_5

Rusty2 said:

Thanks 109A_5 - I agree, that's the tricky part.

Well it is really not that tricky if you know how to set up and program small timers and Thermocouple or RTC temperature controllers. It can be a fun project if you like that sort of thing.

The thermocouple temperature controller senses if the main is over maybe 180 degrees Fahrenheit, it triggers a timer for maybe 60 seconds, the timer activates a relay that controls the vacuum pump. When the main cools below 180 degrees Fahrenheit the timer is reset and waits for the next trigger event.

These devices are highly programmable so you can vary the time and temperature as much as desired.
The data sheets are online, you can read them before you buy anything.

And the beauty of it all, if you build it you probably can service and maintain it too.

Rusty2

Thanks 109A_5 - You're helping me convince myself.

109A_5

Hello @Rusty2,
An concept example below. The temperature controller and timer do not have to be power by 120 VAC, some are 24 VAC and others are DC powered. You probably want relay output contacts. You may want an additional relay or a Solid State Relay (SSR) for the pump power so you don't beat up the relay contacts in the timer. A Programmable Logic Controller (PLC) or Programmable Logic Relay (PLR) could be used also, some have inputs for temperature measurement.

Steamhead

@rusty2, if youe shop-vac was sucking water out of that runout pipe, and the rad heated on the next cycle, there's your problem. Water collecting in the main or the rad.

Proper steam piping practice calls for a runout one size larger than usual if it's longer than 10 feet or so. Also more slope- as much as 1 inch per foot. This is shown in "Lost Art".

I'd repipe this thing (again) before going down the gadget rabbit-hole.

Rusty2

Thanks 109A_5 for taking the time to make those diagrams. I'll probably take Steamhead's advise and repipe it first. Thanks Steamhead.

EdTheHeaterMan

I am guessing you have something like this. The blue pipe indicates the addition that is not working properly.


After you get the slope of the pipe sorted out, this may be a simple, inexpensive way to do the vacuum pump if you decide you need one. These parts (with some additional wire connections) will make your Fred Flintstone vacuum pump work just fine.

https://www.amazon.com/Artigarden-Electric-Portable-Quick-Fill-Inflatable/dp/B0BWJ2F4MV/ref=sr_1_28?crid=HEEVDTZUWDPG&keywords=mini+air+suction+pump&qid=1701684323&sprefix=mini+air+suction+pump,aps,120&sr=8-28&th=1

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Jacobus-Maid-O-Mist-40-M-40-M-1-8-Vertical-Radiator-Steam-Vent-Angle

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Fernco-1056-100-1-PVC-or-1-1-4-CTS-Flexible-Coupling

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Spears-438-130-1-x-1-2-PVC-Schedule-40-Spigot-x-Female-Bushing

https://www.supplyhouse.com/DiversiTech-7-12B50-1-2-ID-Braided-Vinyl-Tubing-50

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Bluefin-GHBM050-1-2-Hose-Barb-x-1-2-Male-Brass-Pipe-Adapter

https://www.supplyhouse.com/White-Rodgers-3L01-190-3-4-Snap-Disc-Limit-Control-Cut-In-150-Degrees-F-Cut-Out-190-Degrees-F-Open-on-Rise

https://www.supplyhouse.com/White-Rodgers-3F01-180-3-4-Snap-Disc-Fan-Control-Cut-In-180-Degrees-F-Cut-Out-160-Degrees

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Taco-SR501-4-1-Zone-Switching-Relay?_br_psugg_q=sr501-4


Start with an inexpensive suction pump installed in the boiler room. Dental vacuum pumps are in the thousands, so unless you have one laying around, that is a deal killer.
Connect a 1" Fernco to the air vent* (see note) on the radiator, the other side of the Fernco gets an adapter to a barb fitting. run 1/2" vinyl tube to the boiler room and adapt it to the suction side of the pump with the miscellaneous fittings that come with the pump. To power the pump, connect a 180° limit on the radiator and a 190° fan disk to the steam main near the boiler and wire it in series with the pump. You may need to fabricate a cover if you use line voltage on the disk limit controls.

Or, You can use Class 2 low voltage wiring to a relay like a SR501 to operate the pump.


* By leaving the air vent in place and adapting the vac pump hose over the vent, you will prevent steam from entering the vacuum system.

Rusty2

Thank you Ed. Your drawing is a pretty much spot on illustration for what I have. Also thanks for taking the time to look up all the parts and making an easy to understand explanation complete with pictures of the parts and where they go.

First I need to tear out part of a closet, a built in storage chest and the corner of a bathroom that the pipe runs through before it becomes visible along the floor of the room to work on increasing the slope of the pipe. Meanwhile we have a wood stove in that room which is what I've been using.

ethicalpaul

Respectfully, if the pitch was ok you simply wouldn't be having this problem, and you wouldn't need to consider a difficult to implement, maintain, and understand solution adding more parts to fail.

Keep it simple and find the pitch problem (edit: I see you said you were going to explore the piping more, I think this will prove fruitful for you, good luck!)

Rusty2

Thanks Paul. I'm now beginning to see the obvious, that the water in the pipe collected from past steam cycles where steam never made it to the radiator is the problem. If I remove the water with the vacuum, then steam is there immediately. I convinced myself that the pitch where the pipe was visible was enough, even raising the radiator a couple of inches. The culprit, where water collects, must be where I can't see the pipe.

ethicalpaul

It's not obvious because we can't see inside the pipes very easily, and in your case, it's hard to see even the pipes themselves! I had a radiator with this problem and I had to run a new pipe to it (the old one was buried in the wall, had settled, and was impossible for me to fix in place).

Rusty2

'Found the culprit. Passing through the bottom of a built in storage chest the pipe is pitched the wrong way. Both wood and metal surgery are in order. Wood first. Maybe I can "simply" raise the pipe.

109A_5

Hello @Rusty2,
I would correct the pitch issue first. If that don't work to your satisfaction, go with the next size up pipe as @Steamhead suggested.

You could put a drip at the far end to carry the condensate back to the system if freezing is not an issue. A portion of the steam pipe would have to be correctly pitched toward the radiator, probably a high spot would end up somewhere in the middle of the steam pipe run.

Is this the farthest radiator in the system, like in @EdTheHeaterMan's illustration ? Like the boiler is in the front of the house and the addition is way in the rear. Or is that run-out tapped in closer to the boiler ?

The reason I ask is you may want to put the Gorton #2 back in place once the pipe issues are corrected.

Note; a small dental pump type vacuum pump probably would not suck out the condensate like a shop vac does unless the condensate is collected and there is a dip tube type system. The dental pump just does not have the volume of air flow in pipes that size. But it will change the differential pressure as @ethicalpaul pointed out (motivates the steam movement), since all the vents are normally vented to atmospheric pressure. If needed, I would not run the vacuum pump long enough to suck steam into the vacuum line, hence the timer, that would be a waste of energy and may cause other problems.

Rusty2

"Is this the farthest radiator in the system, like in @EdTheHeaterMan's illustration ? Like the boiler is in the front of the house and the addition is way in the rear. Or is that run-out tapped in closer to the boiler?"

Yes 109A_5, the take-off (riser) for that radiator is the last take-off on one of the mains and is furthest from the boiler. After I finish butchering the built in storage chest in order to access the pipe I'll give it a try it with and without the Gorton #2 near the radiator and see what happens.

Rusty2

I was able to reach all of the 1 1/4 copper and pitch it properly except for a short piece where it makes a 45 to another 45. That part still pitches slightly the wrong way, but the radiator heats all the way across on every cycle now (even) without the Gorton #2. I should probably leave well enough alone, but am going to change those 2 45's for a long sweep 90 to get plenty of slope all the way. Thanks everybody for your helpful comments.