Questions on Roth tanks installation

Hanna61

So, finally just had someone come to give me an estimate on 2 Roth tanks installation and they said the following all depending on what I wanted:

1 - He could use the same fill and vent black piping if there weren't any obstructions, or not if I wanted new pipes.

2 - Could have the copper pipe going to the boiler across the cellar ceiling or low depending on what I wanted. (It can be wet down there and the current one is under some concrete.)

3 - There could be 2 lines or one line with a tiger loop.

It seems as though there are a lot of options. He hasn't given me the quote, but could you folks would be the best for efficiency and what makes sense or difficulties from your experiences.

I'd greatly appreciate comments. I was a little surprised that so much depended on what I as a non-oil tank installer wanted.

Thanks for any input.

Big Ed_4

Do you need two tanks ?

Hanna61

Big Ed_4 said:

Do you need two tanks ?

The house is about 3000 sq ft, 4-5 bedrooms with 3 zones. I have 2 tanks now and in Central/Western Massachusetts.

Jamie Hall

Two tanks would be really nice in the OP's area. Wish I had a place to put two...

On some of the other questions. No reason not to keep the old fill and vent lines if they are in decent shape and physically fit.

If you use a copper pipe with sheathing and can do it without creating a trip hazard, a line low across the floor is a LOT easier to prime and keep primed. How wet is wet, though? Do you mean actually underwater, or just ... wet? I presume there is some reason you can't use the present line? Why?

If the line is low, one line is fine. High... well maybe two, and maybe a Tiger Loop -- although if the lines are really tight that may not be needed.

STEVEusaPA

If you’re doing 2 tanks you are going to need 2 separate fills, and 2 separate vents.
-Or-
Gang the vents together, not the fills.
-Or-
Use the Roth's manifold twin kit, which I’ll never use.
I wouldn’t re-use old pipes

I’d run one pipe to the burner with a Tiger Loop. In your case overhead.
I'm mainly recommending a tiger loop because it’s two tanks with 3 extra flares and overhead.
Make sure they follow NFPA 31.

Hanna61

Thanks for your responses.

The cellar is concrete, but the field stone foundation and bulkhead can leak. Now the oil line goes through a pipe, then run in concrete on a bulkhead stair about a foot off the ground cause of course that's where the water pools if it's going to due to heavy rain. Boiler is on a large cement pad, so oil line lays in pipe/cement before coming up to connect to boiler. A friend said it needs a sump pump at the side of the stair there.

He said he'd use 2 inch black steel pipe, 3/8th coated copper oil line.

Don't know how good the current fill and vent pipes are as he didn't say anything about them in that regard only that he could use them if they weren't obstructed. They and the line to the boiler
are at least 25 years old.

He was going to use the "expansion kit" and do one fill and one vent using the same holes to the outside. As he said being such an old house (1850) , he scrunched his face and said there are a lot of obstructions (big chimney, under flooring, some outdoor problem). Is this the kit you are talking about? And why don't folks use them?

Sounds like tiger loop is a good way to go with one line.

STEVEusaPA

I don't like the kit because no one has ever proven to me that both tanks will fill exactly the same, nor will they drain exactly the same. The slightest vacuum leak in the copper out of one tank, or unequal supply lines, to me, would cause the tanks to be unable to remain at the same level. Improper filling (slow and/or briefly non-pressurized) would also cause the tanks not to fill properly.
Then over time, one tank would (could?) probably end up over filling.
That's why I suggested 2 separate fills, and ganged together vents as a minimum, assuming that someone doesn't actually try to fill both tanks at once.
You already got the holes in the wall. Enlarging one of them to accommodate 1 extra fill pipe isn't that much of a big deal.
Roth also allows 1 1/2" fill/vent piping.

Jamie Hall

Actually, @STEVEusaPA , I would kind of agree with you about unequal filling and emptying -- if there was no equalizing pipe at or near the bottom of the tanks. And, with top fill/top draw/top return only, there wouldn't be such a pipe, so it could definitely be a problem. If you have two tanks paralleled at the bottom -- bottom outlets -- this won't be a problem, assuming both tanks are vented (either separately or through a single paralleled vent) there may be -- actually probably will be -- a tendency for the tank with the fill pipe to get more filled than the other, but that shouldn't be that much of a problem.

Don't be too sure about enlarging a hole in a fieldstone basement wall being not much of a big deal. It can be easy. It can be anything but.

EBEBRATT-Ed

We had 2 20,000 gallon under ground storage tanks at our old shop (long gone now). Of course you could never equalize 2 underground tanks because you are not allowed to cross connect them underground at the bottom.

So when they installed them they had a 3" suction line out of each tank(out of the top) tee'd together and then run to a 3" oil pump used to fill the trucks. They always equalized even in a vacuum. Once the air got out of the suction line you could dump a 6000 gallon trailer of #2 oil in one tank and it would syphon across to the other tank as fast as you could fill it.

I see no reason a Roth would not do the same thing. You have atmospheric pressure pushing down on the oil level in both tanks. The burner will pull from the tank with the higher level

But now most will not take the time to get the suction line tight...100% tight so they stick a Tiger on it and call it a day and say it won't work.

Jamie Hall

It's that getting the line across the top tight that's the tough part. And keeping it that way. As you say, @EBEBRATT-Ed , nowadays you give it a lick and promise and stick a Tiger on it and call it good.

STEVEusaPA

@Jamie Hall they don’t always equalize with a bottom connection. I’ve seen it a number of times where there’s a clog and it only draws from one tank.

fueloilrich631

New fill and vent piping. Each tank gets a black iron fill and twin the vents together
Run new oil line overhead and use tigerloop, but make sure it is tee'd together equal distance (dead center) between the two tanks so they draw equally
(a good oil driver will notice if they arent drawing equally and will have their offive notify you so they can get in and address the issue)

MaxMercy

A single tank would greatly simplify things if you really don't need two.

I'm in CT (zone 5) and go about 5-6 weeks between fills in the coldest Dec-Feb slot with a 275 tank and about 2800sq but fairly well insulated. I get oil at the beginning of the fall heating season - typically Nov and again at the end of winter about March besides that mid winter fill. I use my boiler (stupidly) for hot water which will consume most of the tank from Feb through the summer to my first fall/winter fill.

When I replaced my leaky tank a couple of years ago, I thought about going from the 275 to a 330 but didn't think it was needed.

STEVEusaPA

fueloilrich631 said:

...a good oil driver will notice if they arent drawing equally and will have their offive notify you so they can get in and address the issue)

Exactly how would a 'good oil driver' or any delivery person know if they aren't drawing equally? Walk back to the truck after each tank is filled and note the gallons? That would only show a gross discrepancy.

Jamie Hall

True enough, @STEVEusaPA . If I did have a dual tank setup, I'd very much want a fairly large diameter equalizing line.

EBEBRATT-Ed

3/8" OD copper tubing is adequate to equalize two tanks and has been for years. If it isn't someone is neglecting the oil filters and service.

The only time I have seen tanks not equalize is with very old tanks

fueloilrich631

STEVEusaPA said:

fueloilrich631 said:

...a good oil driver will notice if they arent drawing equally and will have their offive notify you so they can get in and address the issue)

Exactly how would a 'good oil driver' or any delivery person know if they aren't drawing equally? Walk back to the truck after each tank is filled and note the gallons? That would only show a gross discrepancy.

If you don't notice the time difference in a 50 gallon delivery and a 150 gallon delivery, you probably shouldn't be doing much besides sitting on the couch all day

STEVEusaPA

fueloilrich631 said:

If you don't notice the time difference in a 50 gallon delivery and a 150 gallon delivery, you probably shouldn't be doing much besides sitting on the couch all day

Again...'gross discrepancy'.
Are you telling me any driver would notice a difference in 5-10 gallons (5 to 10 seconds) of filling, between tanks, without looking at the meter in between fills? I wouldn't, and I've been delivering oil since 1983.
Which is why I initially posted about 2 separate fills.
Maybe stop regurgitating previous posts to get you post count up and/or to try to sound like you know what you are talking about.

Erin Holohan Haskell

Please be respectful of one another and lay off the personal attacks. Thank you.

Intplm.

@Hanna61

In my humble opinion, and, what has always worked best in the installations that I have done is to have two tanks if you can afford them.

Use a properly sized (usually two-inch pipe) with a separate fill and a separate vent dedicated to serving each tank. This will make for fewer issues in the future, ie delivery spills, etc.

Have the supply lines properly sized from the tank or tank's distance to the burner.

Otherwise a single tank option at a lower installation cost.