No heat to one loop/bedroom upstairs

tmeseck

Hello All,

We purchased our house towards the end of last year, upon moving in, we noticed no heat was going to our master bedroom CI radiator. We had someone come out to clean up the boiler and check it out. After attempting everything and trying to purge the air out of the system, he let us know that a secondary pump would have to be added.

For some background, our house was built in 1915, has a Slant/Fin sentry boiler with 1 1/4” copper pipes near boiler feeding 1.5-2” cast iron pipes going up to each radiator. Currently has 1 Grondfus 15-42 pump feeding all rads. I’ll post pics of the system in the basement as well as radiator upstairs getting no heat.

My question is… why was the issue of the radiator not getting heat not addressed when the Slant/Fin boiler installed? Was it working at one point and for what reason is hot water not circulating up there now. Does a secondary pump have to be added or is there something I am missing in relation to purging the system correctly?



There is water coming out of the radiator upstairs which tells me pressure is OK. Currently at 15 psi.

Thank you all!

Jamie Hall

That looks suspiciously as though it had been a gravity hot water system at some time. Those can be rather tricky to balance when converted to pumped operation -- which is, I suspect, what has happened to yours.

If someone had the wit to install balancing valves on the system when it was converted, playing with them might solve the problem. Otherise... yeah, you may need to put a pump on that loop.

Big Ed_4

Is that radiator valve closed ? Seems the two risers are tapped close to bull tee's on that split system ? That should be the hottest radiator ...

tmeseck

Jamie Hall said:

That looks suspiciously as though it had been a gravity hot water system at some time. Those can be rather tricky to balance when converted to pumped operation -- which is, I suspect, what has happened to yours. If someone had the wit to install balancing valves on the system when it was converted, playing with them might solve the problem. Otherise... yeah, you may need to put a pump on that loop.

Thank you for your insight Jamie. All of the radiators have valves on them that are serized and can not be turned. Some of the rads run much hotter than others. Would replacing the valves and adjusting them accomplish the same thing as adding balancing valves?

tmeseck

Big Ed_4 said:

Is that radiator valve closed ? Seems the two risers are tapped close to bull tee's on that split system ? That should be the hottest radiator ...

It looks as though it’s about half way closed but I can’t adjust it as it is seized. The return and supply lines for the loop connect right to the corresponding supply and return bull tees.

Jamie Hall

tmeseck said:

Jamie Hall said:

That looks suspiciously as though it had been a gravity hot water system at some time. Those can be rather tricky to balance when converted to pumped operation -- which is, I suspect, what has happened to yours.

If someone had the wit to install balancing valves on the system when it was converted, playing with them might solve the problem. Otherise... yeah, you may need to put a pump on that loop.

Thank you for your insight Jamie. All of the radiators have valves on them that are serized and can not be turned. Some of the rads run much hotter than others. Would replacing the valves and adjusting them accomplish the same thing as adding balancing valves?

Eek. Yes, freeing up or replacing the valves would be a very good project. Although I'll warn you: replacing radiator valves isn't quite as simple as it looks, since the valves are matched to the spud in the radiator, and you may find that replacements don't mate properly.

That said, that would also give you the opportunity to put TRVs on some or all of the radiators.

Big Ed_4

They can be rebuilt , quality valve you have there...

GW

The old adage is, “if it worked before, it will work again”

Assuming all the radiator valves are similar, can you simply eyeball the stem, to see if it’s sitting at the same general height as the ones that do operate? If somebody closed it, then you’re stuck. Cross your fingers and try to open it. 

Replacement is not super easy, as Jamie suggested. I suppose you can Google and YouTube anything these days, and figure it out if you’re somewhat handy.

If it’s not the rad valve then it’s air. If the system gets low on pressure air can start entering at the top of the system. Precisely which rad gets affected first is like throwing a dart into the breeze. No rhyme or reason sometimes 

Chasing the air out, sometimes be somewhat of an art. If air cannot rise, or if air gets trapped, it needs to be pushed out. 

So it’s the valve or it’s air 

EBEBRATT-Ed

It's probably a balancing issue. I don't care for the reducing coupling near the circulator. Water is lazy and will take the path of least resistance.

I would probably try getting a few of your old radiator valves to move. Loosen the packing nut (it will probably leak some water so be prepared) and see if you can get some of the valves to move. I would start with the hottest radiators. If you can reduce the flow on a couple of them you might get the water to move.

tmeseck

Thank you all for the replies. I am going to try and loosen up some of the rad valves tomorrow. Hopefully I have some luck in getting them to move. If not I will figure out if replacing or rebuilding, as Big Ed said, is the best option. 

If you can’t tell, who ever installed this system was a bit of a hack. Down the road I would like to re pipe everything in the basement, remove the CI rads downstairs, mix water to a lower temp and run PEX through the joists in the basement. Then PEX to the upper rads (new runtals) but money and knowledge are not quite on my side yet!

For now I would just like to have even heat throughout the home. My toddlers room gets close to 80 while we have nothing in ours. 

Will post an update tomorrow.

GW

well it's not polite to say things are ugly. If you ask for opinions, then most heating folks will lettr rip. I was on a no-heat this weekend, and the homeowner slipped out who installed the system (she couldn't reach him), and it was an over-sized ugger. We all have our strengths and weaknesses.

Anyway, you shaded a red arrow and a blue arrow. That's seemingly sending heat to (at least) two rads. Is the opposing rad getting heat? If yes, then you're going to be looking more closely at the rad valve it seems.

Big Ed_4

The valves from the past were made of higher quality than the imported model today . I use teflon tape for packing and bonnet gaskets . Fine steel wool for cleaning seats . I would assume they use a tapered washer if used for control . Always use two wrenches to prevent torquing on the oil pipes . Never over tighten the packing nut , you break them . Take care of removing the handle without breaking them . They will be brittle .

Looks like your systems has been added to and changed a few times . From the original installers design . If you want the comfort and control repiping would be a good idea .

tmeseck

@GW I agree, I should not have said they they were a hack. A good amount of care was put into installation. I just wish they would have put a little more thought into the system when it came to balancing and making it work efficiently!

As an update, I was busy today:

I went around the house and attempted to loosen up each rad valve. I used a pipe wrench to remove the packing nut and freed up the handles. A few ended up breaking as they were so brittle and I may not have the finesse that @Big Ed_4 has. So I’m on to replacing those ones.

I tried adjusting the valves that I freed up to force heat to the bedroom and guess what… I got heat! It’s not much but better than nothing. I’ll have to do some more playing around / replacing the valves that broke to balance more but I’m glad for now.

Thank you all for your replies and helping me though this. Im trying to learn more about hydronic systems and radiant heat and hopefully will be doing some larger work down the road. I just don’t want to rush into it and do a poor job. So you should be hearing from me again soon!