A few questions

Timtime

I have a peerless oil boiler. It uses circ pumps not zone valves. There are two zones and one zone is two bedrooms. When heat is running the room with thermostat doesn't get as warm as the other room. Seems odd. Any ideas? Seems like the room with thermostat would be warmer.

Second is my ignition transformer. It's an old Blue Angel burner with the big transformer, old style I guess. My boiler runs fine for a few days and then won't come on. I hit the reset and it starts right up usually and runs fine again for a while. Sometimes though when I hit reset the ignition transformer buzzes. Not a hum, but a buzz. If I give it a hit the boiler starts right up. Bad transformer you think? I did some research and it seems these don't just stop working, but can die a slow death. I think maybe the transformer and primary control may be bad. It just doesn't fire consistently. Still trying to figure that out.

Third question I seem to find different answers for, it's boiler pressure. I read that it should be about 15#. I have read that it can be 25-30# as well. Some say 30# is too high. Mine sits at about 30# when hot. I tried draining some water, but when I turn the water back on it just gets back up to that pressure. Should I worry about 30#?

I'd like to fix it myself so I can save some money and also because I like to know how to fix it. Wiring is easy if it needs it and I'm very mechanical, but knowing where to start is the problem. Lot's of videos out there, but I guess I didn't find the right one. If not then I'll get the oil guy in, but I'd like to get it working properly. I actually got some good help here a few years ago and it worked out great. I have a coil in my boiler for water that I no longer use and someone helped me wire the aquastat so it would work right with some jumper wires. Has worked great for years! Thanks for any assistance.

Jamie Hall

One room on a zone not gettigg as warm as another is not a bit unusual, and the location of the thermostat has nothing to do with it -- that just determines how warm that particular room gets. There are many many reasons why one room might be warmer -- or cooler -- than another. It all has to do with the balance of heat input (from the radiaton) vs. heat loss (wals, windows, roof, whatever). If there is a valve on the radiator(s) in the room which is a little warm, you can try closing the valve a bit -- but be warned: if the valve is old and hasn't been moved in a while, it may leak if you try to move it...

The burner thing is potentially quite dangerous -- and oil burners are most assuredly not a do it yourself proposition. You need to find a really good honest tech. to come and evaluate it and clean the boiler and adjust everything. It is likely that you at least need a new control and ignitor -- and possibly more.

15 pounds pressure is all you likely need. If you drain water and it's OK, but then come right back up it is probably a problem with pressure regulating valve. It may also be a problem with the expansion or compression tank. That can be a do it yourself project, but you really sort of have to know what you are doing. Pictures would help us help you.

Timtime

Jamie Hall said:

One room on a zone not gettigg as warm as another is not a bit unusual, and the location of the thermostat has nothing to do with it -- that just determines how warm that particular room gets. There are many many reasons why one room might be warmer -- or cooler -- than another. It all has to do with the balance of heat input (from the radiaton) vs. heat loss (wals, windows, roof, whatever). If there is a valve on the radiator(s) in the room which is a little warm, you can try closing the valve a bit -- but be warned: if the valve is old and hasn't been moved in a while, it may leak if you try to move it...

The burner thing is potentially quite dangerous -- and oil burners are most assuredly not a do it yourself proposition. You need to find a really good honest tech. to come and evaluate it and clean the boiler and adjust everything. It is likely that you at least need a new control and ignitor -- and possibly more.

15 pounds pressure is all you likely need. If you drain water and it's OK, but then come right back up it is probably a problem with pressure regulating valve. It may also be a problem with the expansion or compression tank. That can be a do it yourself project, but you really sort of have to know what you are doing. Pictures would help us help you.

Thanks for the reply. The colder room is mostly windows and I figured that would be the issue.

I maintain the boiler myself and have done so for 20+ years. I clean it and change the filter and nozzle every year. At the beginning of this year I rebuilt the burn chamber and it came out pretty good. Feels like when the boiler is running it is warmer faster. I'll probably have my guy come look at it then and test some stuff.

I also replaced the expansion tank this year, it was leaking water through the air valve. The pressure regulator was put on new maybe two years ago. Is there a way to check the regulator without special tools? If the regulator was bad couldn't it potentially go up higher than 30#? I appreciate the help. Sorry I didn't answer sooner, but I have been driving all day picking up people who don't drive to come for the holiday.

HVACNUT

If you reset it and only hear the buzz of the ignition transformer, then what you don't hear is the burner motor... until you kick it. Could be the motor. Could be the primary if theres separate motor and igniter leads. Could be the fuel pump. Only one way to find out.

Timtime

HVACNUT said:

If you reset it and only hear the buzz of the ignition transformer, then what you don't hear is the burner motor... until you kick it. Could be the motor. Could be the primary if theres separate motor and igniter leads. Could be the fuel pump. Only one way to find out.

Yeah it could be almost anything. If I can't figure it out I'll get the dude to come look at it. I'm guessing it's not the fuel pump since when it's running it runs great, until it stops and won't restart, but I really don't know. I took the primary control off and it has the typical three wires coming out of it, black, white and orange. There is a white wire that has some cracked insulation with an exposed wire. I'm pretty sure that's not good. I think I'm gonna replace the primary controller regardless. Thanks

Steamhead

Jamie Hall said:

......The burner thing is potentially quite dangerous -- and oil burners are most assuredly not a do it yourself proposition. You need to find a really good honest tech......

This, @Timtime . The Blue Angel is a good burner but must be set up properly. If it has the old Honeywell R8184 primary control (where the reset button is) this should be upgraded to a modern one. Where are you located? We might know someone who can help you.

EdTheHeaterMan

Do not replace the Honeywell R8184 (three wire) primary control with the same one, type. The Carlin 70200S PRO X is less expensive most of the time and has many features for diagnostic, more efficient, and safer operation.

This is pretty much an industry standard practice to always upgrade the primary control to the newer electronic modes with a 15 second safety.https://www.supplyhouse.com/Carlin-Combustion-70200S-Pro-X-Universal-Oil-Primary-Control-120-VAC?_br_psugg_q=carlin+burners+&+parts

The wiring may be a little tricky when you first get the control out of the box because there are 7 or 8 wires to connect, but you don't need to connect all of them. You may need to connect two of them to the same place, Which confused the hell out of me the first time.. But you will be better off with it.

This control will also tell you if the lock out problem is ignition related or motor related. or may be some other problem. There are other electronic primary controls, but I like this one the best.

As far as tapping on the burner when you hear the buzz, I think that is a motor problem. @HVACNUT also mentioned it could be a motor problem.

Timtime

EdTheHeaterMan said:

Do not replace the Honeywell R8184 (three wire) primary control with the same one, type. The Carlin 70200S PRO X is less expensive most of the time and has many features for diagnostic, more efficient, and safer operation.

This is pretty much an industry standard practice to always upgrade the primary control to the newer electronic modes with a 15 second safety.https://www.supplyhouse.com/Carlin-Combustion-70200S-Pro-X-Universal-Oil-Primary-Control-120-VAC?_br_psugg_q=carlin+burners+&+parts

The wiring may be a little tricky when you first get the control out of the box because there are 7 or 8 wires to connect, but you don't need to connect all of them. You may need to connect two of them to the same place, Which confused the hell out of me the first time.. But you will be better off with it.

This control will also tell you if the lock out problem is ignition related or motor related. or may be some other problem. There are other electronic primary controls, but I like this one the best.

As far as tapping on the burner when you hear the buzz, I think that is a motor problem. @HVACNUT also mentioned it could be a motor problem.

I was just gonna grab a simple unit to replace the primary controller. I was looking at one by ICM. I don't need anything too fancy. When I'm tapping I'm tapping on the transformer itself cuz it's buzzing. What motor are we talking about? The blower motor right? Is that replaceable or is that the whole burner needing to be replaced? Thanks for your reply.

Steamhead

Timtime said:

I was just gonna grab a simple unit to replace the primary controller. I was looking at one by ICM. I don't need anything too fancy.

Yes, you do. @EdTheHeaterMan is right. Those ICMs- at least the ones I saw- are warmed-over R8184s. Most of them have 45-second trial-for-ignition periods, which is way too long. 15 seconds is now the standard.

Think of it this way. With a 45-second trial, if the burner starts but doesn't light right away, it's still spraying oil into the firebox. If it then lights at 37 seconds or so, with all that oil in there, it will result in a Major Disturbance in the Force- otherwise known as a puffback- which will usually drive soot all over the place. Why take the chance?

And none of the ICMs I saw shut off the ignition after the flame is established. This is one reason they're so cheap. Controls of this type wear out ignition parts sooner, which can result in delayed ignition and puffbacks.

Do yourself a favor. Get a real primary control. The Carlin is a nice unit, as are the Honeywell R7284 and the Beckett GeniSys.

EdTheHeaterMan

Timtime said:

I was just gonna grab a simple unit to replace the primary controller. I was looking at one by ICM. I don't need anything too fancy. When I'm tapping I'm tapping on the transformer itself cuz it's buzzing. What motor are we talking about? The blower motor right? Is that replaceable or is that the whole burner needing to be replaced? Thanks for your reply.

You probably don't want to do that, You said "not needing anything too fancy" means that you want the less expensive one. Check the price of the Carlin 70200S Pro X with the ICM three wire, I believe you will see that price is not that bad and "That Fancy" stuff can help you or a future technician diagnose many different problems

EdTheHeaterMan

Here is the simple wiring you need to do
and the difference is very small


on the lower cost control (which has a 5 year limited warranty by the way) youv connect all the white wires the same way you do on the 3 wire control. OR you can place the spade connectors on the L2 terminals individually. It is the same difference. They make it that way for when you need to change out a motor or a transformer in the future.... the motors, transformers, and valves come with spade terminals now. You would need to cut off the spade terminals on the replacement motor to connect it to the ICM or any other 3 wire control


You still connect the Orange wire to the Motor. The only thing you would do differently is to connect the Transformer wire to the Blue ignition terminal so you can get interrupted ignition, which is more efficient in most cases. If there is an oil valve, you can connect that separately also.



You will have a safer control and a more efficient flame with this lower price control.

Timtime

EdTheHeaterMan said:

Timtime said:

I was just gonna grab a simple unit to replace the primary controller. I was looking at one by ICM. I don't need anything too fancy. When I'm tapping I'm tapping on the transformer itself cuz it's buzzing. What motor are we talking about? The blower motor right? Is that replaceable or is that the whole burner needing to be replaced? Thanks for your reply.

You probably don't want to do that, You said "not needing anything too fancy" means that you want the less expensive one. Check the price of the Carlin 70200S Pro X with the ICM three wire, I believe you will see that price is not that bad and "That Fancy" stuff can help you or a future technician diagnose many different problems

My reason isn't cost, it was for ease of installation. If I use basically the same unit I can wire it myself. Something with a bunch of extra crap makes wiring it tougher. I have to do this myself, I don't have the money to hire someone to do it and charge me a fortune for parts. I'm the only one in my house that works and the money isn't there. I'll look at the Carlin and see if it's something I can wire up. I appreciate the advice though.

Timtime

EdTheHeaterMan said:

Here is the simple wiring you need to do
and the difference is very small


on the lower cost control (which has a 5 year limited warranty by the way) youv connect all the white wires the same way you do on the 3 wire control. OR you can place the spade connectors on the L2 terminals individually. It is the same difference. They make it that way for when you need to change out a motor or a transformer in the future.... the motors, transformers, and valves come with spade terminals now. You would need to cut off the spade terminals on the replacement motor to connect it to the ICM or any other 3 wire control


You still connect the Orange wire to the Motor. The only thing you would do differently is to connect the Transformer wire to the Blue ignition terminal so you can get interrupted ignition, which is more efficient in most cases. If there is an oil valve, you can connect that separately also.



You will have a safer control and a more efficient flame with this lower price control.

Hey Ed. Home Depot carries this Carlin and the PDF I downloaded actually shows a wiring diagram that's less confusing than what you have shown here. I think I'll pick one up and give it a go. Thanks for your help.

MikeAmann

Timtime said:

My reason isn't cost, it was for ease of installation. If I use basically the same unit I can wire it myself. Something with a bunch of extra crap makes wiring it tougher. I have to do this myself, I don't have the money to hire someone to do it and charge me a fortune for parts. I'm the only one in my house that works and the money isn't there. I'll look at the Carlin and see if it's something I can wire up. I appreciate the advice though.

I realize that you want to keep the changes to a minimum, but trust me, the Carlin IS EASIER. It simplifies (each component will have it's own separate connection) and that makes future troubleshooting a snap. DO THIS!
Are you able to crimp 1/4" spade terminals onto the wires?

Timtime

MikeAmann said:

Timtime said:

My reason isn't cost, it was for ease of installation. If I use basically the same unit I can wire it myself. Something with a bunch of extra crap makes wiring it tougher. I have to do this myself, I don't have the money to hire someone to do it and charge me a fortune for parts. I'm the only one in my house that works and the money isn't there. I'll look at the Carlin and see if it's something I can wire up. I appreciate the advice though.

I realize that you want to keep the changes to a minimum, but trust me, the Carlin IS EASIER. It simplifies (each component will have it's own separate connection) and that makes future troubleshooting a snap. DO THIS!
Are you able to crimp 1/4" spade terminals onto the wires?

Oh yeah no problem. I'm very mechanical. My father was a machinist and my brother is a master tech. I do all my own repairs on car house, everything. I have wired receptacles for my welders and GFCI, etc. I have the tools for most things. I just lack the diagnostic knowledge for boilers lol. Once I know what part, I can replace it easily. I think my boiler is at that point where parts are starting to fail and I just have to get the right parts. That Carlin looks very easy to wire with the right schematic. I was wrong about the Depot having it in stock. I'll have to order it. I might replace the pressure regulator as well. I'm not sure if it's a problem, but my boiler gets to 30# when it's hot and that seems too high. I'm also not sure the pressure relief valve is working since it doesn't seem to pop. I believe I read those are set for 30#. This system went in with the house in 1987 so 36 years is a bit. I have been here 22 years and never replaced the relief valve. I did replace the regulator a few years ago when I did some plumbing work on the boiler. Thanks again for your help.

neilc

post a picture of your expansion tank,
if you tap on it,
does it sound and feel heavy?
or tinny empty?
they get water logged and stop excepting expansion,
and you go to 30psi,
is it a ceiling tank, or suspended in the piping?

Timtime

neilc said:

post a picture of your expansion tank,
if you tap on it,
does it sound and feel heavy?
or tinny empty?
they get water logged and stop excepting expansion,
and you go to 30psi,
is it a ceiling tank, or suspended in the piping?

The tank is suspended, but it's brand new. I just replaced it. It was leaking water through the air valve so I replaced it.

Quick question, my ignition transformer is one of the older, bigger ones. If I ever had to replace it does it have to be the same or can I use the newer type?

neilc

I am not your ignition expert,
there are plenty of better folks on this thread commenting.

did you check the air pressure prior to hanging the new tank,
it needs to be set at 12~15, what ever you plan to have for a cold fill pressure,

is the domestic hot part of the boiler system, or stand alone?

Timtime

neilc said:

I am not your ignition expert,
there are plenty of better folks on this thread commenting.

did you check the air pressure prior to hanging the new tank,
it needs to be set at 12~15, what ever you plan to have for a cold fill pressure,

is the domestic hot part of the boiler system, or stand alone?

I did check it and pressure was good. The boiler has a coil for hot water, but it is no longer used. I use a water heater now, I have for years.

neilc

so if there's no connection at the domestic coil, and the tank is good,
then feed valve is leaking by(?),

isolate the feed, let some water out the drain,
and keep an eye on the pressure that it doesn't drop too low(leakage)

Timtime

neilc said:

so if there's no connection at the domestic coil, and the tank is good,
then feed valve is leaking by(?),

isolate the feed, let some water out the drain,
and keep an eye on the pressure that it doesn't drop too low(leakage)

I was thinking that. I replaced the fill valve a few years ago, but I suppose it could be bad. I drained water out and turned water back on and it basically went back to the higher pressure. I didn't isolate it though, but I was thinking of trying that actually. I'll try that tomorrow. I'm off so I'll have time to mess with it and watch it. Thanks

Timtime

Hey. I thought I'd update this. Had a lot going on with holidays and some family stuff and just kinda forgot to update. So I wound up replacing my motor and primary control. The motor was junk. The wires were exposed from insulation being old and cracked and falling off. When the boiler would buzz it was definitely the motor causing it. I also replaced the primary with the Carlin that was suggested. Everything works great now. I still have an issue with pressure. It seems to get up to about 25psi now which may be normal. The relief valve leaks a bit though. I have a bucket under it and have to empty it every other day. It seems to have a constant drip. I think the valve itself may be bad. I'll probably deal with it until heating season is over and then replace a few more things. Thanks to everyone who offered advice, really appreciate it.

WMno57

Thank you for the update on the oil burner. I love to see DIY successes on this forum.

Timtime said:

I still have an issue with pressure. It seems to get up to about 25psi now which may be normal. The relief valve leaks a bit though. I have a bucket under it and have to empty it every other day. It seems to have a constant drip. I think the valve itself may be bad. I'll probably deal with it until heating season is over and then replace a few more things.

You mentioned you replaced the expansion tank. We can definitely help you troubleshoot pressure issues. Far easier than the oil burner issue. Please consider starting a new discussion for this. I have an idea on the root cause of your pressure problem.