Need to maybe drop the system pressure in steel tank with Airtrol in a pumping away setup...

swvawethead

1950s house switched to a standing pilot Burnham gas in the mid 1990s before we moved in 1996. Absolutely rock solid, knock on wood.

Hands off operation since after sorting out missing details in a 'closed' two zone pumping away setup with steel tank/Airtrol.
It was a mess with trapped air/no heat, loud trickling/gurlging flow noise in pipes, couple of under slab leaks that got bypassed....

Thank you Dan for "Pumping Away" and "How Come?".

Properly pitched the piping and added a shutoff between boiler and steel tank/airtrol.
Love that Airtrol...
However it does not have the microbubble scrubber between the boiler and steel tank.
Hot_rod and others mentioned this device in several threads.

Started out at 12 lbs, would rise to around 15.
Been replacing the thermocouple every several years or longer.
Always a spare on the boiler.

B&G red series 100 and another B&G that burned out were replaced with 007s several years ago.

Even to this day everything runs and heats with only the fins crackling at startup/cooldown and wonderful noise of occasional popping of copper pipes under the floor.

However,,,out of habit of frequently glancing at the system pressure, noticed it has been reading around 20 lbs after season started. Maybe have been like this for couple seasons??
No water loss in the system that I can detect.
No air. Again, a closed system.
Heat everywhere.

Before I proceed with what I am about to do....
After shutting down or dropping the thermostat, can I relieve some of the standy/cold system pressure by opening the Airtrol and drain out whatever comes out?
Could be some water, could be only air.

Micro bubble capture thingy could be added after this season but for some reason the system has been absolutely hands off with ancient wall thermostat, line voltage controls that clicks loudly when triggered. Absolute joy and ancient simple.

Thank you for putting up with my over-winded posts.

swvawethead

Boiler just stopped and is at 18 lbs.
Please forgive the wiring mess.
And the town supply at boiler needs a brass union....

Most of the copper runs you see are from late 1990s when B&W fill/reducer were replaced, galvanized pipes tossed, pitched the pipe to the steel tank and added the shut off.
And more...

Second picture shows the downstairs loop return that was kept above slab after bypassing under slab sections suspected of leaking.
(Boiler drain got cutoff in the picture.)
Several other sections in the den were bypassed and kept above the floow.
All temporary until whenever but it's been around 25 years...

Third picture shows the city water to the boiler (along the flue vent), the vertical run with the blue nibco handle rises to the steel tank and connects to the Airtrol not shown clearly in the pic.

WMno57

swvawethead said:

No water loss in the system that I can detect.
No air. Again, a closed system.

As the owner of one of these older systems, my opinion is they are not 100 percent closed, and not maintenance free.
I probably have small leaks around valve stems. I could have small leaks between boiler sections. I get a small amount of air in second floor radiators, which I occasionally bleed off. Over the heating season, my pressure drops maybe 4 pounds. Last year I added some fresh water in March. Which has dissolved air. So the cycle starts again. My tank has no gauge glass, so I completely drain the tank at the start of each season. This way, I start the season with the known quantity of an un-waterlogged tank. Draining lets in a lot of fresh water. If I ever buy another tank, I would get a gauge glass, and maybe a Schrader valve to add air.
I do not have the B&G Airtrol, just an old Thrush air scoop.

jesmed1

I just installed an Airtrol in similar fashion, with 3/4" pipe steeply pitched, rising out of the integral air elimination port that's cast into our Weil-McLain WGO-5 boilers.

Questions: When did you install the Airtrol, and has it made a difference? I'm in the same boat as you, with no external air separation device, and I'm wondering how your air control is working.

Also, how long has it been since you made any change to the water level in the tank? If it's been a long time, I'm wondering if you're losing your air cushion, which would explain why you're starting cold at 12 psi and rising to 18 psi when the boiler is hot.

You can reset the level by shutting your isolation valve, then opening the Airtrol bleed fitting with a 5-gallon bucket underneath. You'll probably get a lot of water, but it will take a while to bleed through that small bleed fitting.

Once you stop getting water and start getting air, you know the water level is now back to the top of the bleed tube. Let the excess air pressure continue to bleed out until the tank air is back to atmospheric pressure. Then close the bleed screw and open your iso valve to refill the tank. It should refill to whatever pressure your regulator is set to, I assume 12 psi.

That's essentially the procedure I used to fill my tank after installing the Airtrol, and it's per the Airtrol instructions. Out of curiosity, after filling I used a heat gun to warm one end of my tank and a thermal imager to "see" the temperature gradient, and the tank appeared to be about 1/2- 2/3 full, which is correct. So if you follow the Airtrol instructions, it will give you the correct water level with penty of air cushion.

Jamie Hall

Try draining a bit of water from somewhere else and see what the pressure holds at -- bring it down to 15 or so. Also, what is the piping relationship between the pressure reducing valve connection to the system and the tank connection? Makes quite a difference.

EBEBRATT-Ed

You do not want ANY automatic air vents or microbubble scrubber on any system that has a steel compression tank.

All they will cause is the expansion tank to waster log.

Manual vents only.

You want the air scoop to catch the air and put it back into the expansion tank.

swvawethead

Sorry was deep inside a building and didn't want to get on their wifi.
Draft I was working on didn't keep.
So here goes...

To clarify, the tank and Airtrol are from when we moved in.
There is no air management elsewhere.
Again, the darned system has run flawlessly but maybe I overlooked something when the Taco 007s replaced the Series 100 and another more modern (but old) B&G that burned out.

When I had to drain and refill the system and set the pressure - last time after I retired the B&Gs - I shut of the valve on the riser to the steel tank.
Open the fill valve and ran around to release the air on the main upstairs zones.
Learned where to do this when we moved in and inherited the gurgling mess and successfully set up a very quiet running system.
(Next door when the Buderus was installed, I got to indulge in Dan's power purging/fill setup by splitting up a loop, hose bibs, etc.)

After being satisfied the pipes are full and pressure rose above 12 lbs, maybe up to 15, opened the shutoff to the steel tank with Airtrol OPEN
Let the system continue to fill until water/air started sputting out the Airtrol.
Closed the Airtrol and monitor the system pressure as it rose.

If the cold pressure is not where I wanted it, open the fill valve to bring it up to pressure.
And vise versa if too high - relieve some of it...via the Airtrol.

This final detail is where I am stuck on.
Perhaps maybe relieve the pressure from one of the bleeders?
I may have done that last time but can't remember...

Also, is 18 lbs too high after the thermostat turned off the boiler?
Usual 1600 sq ft per floor 1950s brick ranch with basement.
After operating for years between 12-15, I may have overlooked something when the 007s were installed?

Again, as it is right now, heating and maintaining temp just fine and very quietly at the current pressure.

I may be splitting hair over this.

swvawethead

Jamie Hall.

Re - "Also, what is the piping relationship between the pressure reducing valve connection to the system and the tank connection? Makes quite a difference."

The fourth picture should answer your question.

Shows the city water line horizontally connected to the boiler via a union.
Same point is the riser to the steel tank - the blue shutoff handle.

Also on that section is a T for the PRV and copper downpipe drain attached to it.

Jamie Hall

Well that's good. But... I'm a bit puzzled by one comment you made. "Air blubbing out of the Airtrol". The Airtrol is supposed to remove air from the system continuously -- and put it into the compression tank. Not let it escape to the wide world. There may be something really -- but not obviously -- plumbed incorrectly there.

swvawethead

To clarify, I don't leave the Airtrol open full time.
I leave it open during filling until water starts spurrting out and then close it.
Presumably the tank has reached the correct level at that point.
That is how I understand the way the Airtrol works and served me well in past filling sessions.

Sorry as usual I got carried away with overloading with details.

I am wondering if 18-20 lbs is ok during heating operation and wanting to relieve some of the pressure if necessary.

System is operating just fine with no odd behaviors or noises.
Under 20 lbs may be ok when system is in heating mode.

I did not check the cold pressure before heating season started but may have been around 15-16.

Probably wasting everybody's time splitting hair over this.

jesmed1

swvawethead said:

To clarify, I don't leave the Airtrol open full time.
I leave it open during filling until water starts spurrting out and then close it.
Presumably the tank has reached the correct level at that point.
That is how I understand the way the Airtrol works and served me well in past filling sessions.

That's the correct way per the Airtrol instructions.

18 psi is not going to hurt anything, but it's probably more than you need. You only need enough pressure to maintain slightly positive pressure at your highest radiator, and if you have 2 stories, 12-15 psi is usually enough. And higher pressure will force more air from the expansion tank into the expansion tank water. Also, higher pressure will reduce the free volume available in the tank for expansion, but it looks like you have a big enough tank that it probably doesn't matter.

Having said that, my system is set at 18 psi in a 2-story house because I upped the pressure last year trying to bleed some air out, and I never got around to resetting back down to 12-15 psi. So we've run it for 1+ years at 18 psi without a problem.

As long as you have enough free volume in your expansion tank, it's not going to be a problem. But if it bothers you, you can bleed a few psi out of the system using the Airtrol bleed screw.

EBEBRATT-Ed

12-15 psi when cold. When hot and up to temp anything below 24ish is ok. 25 or over is getting close to the relief valve setting.

leonz

swvawethead said:

To clarify, I don't leave the Airtrol open full time.
I leave it open during filling until water starts spurrting out and then close it.
Presumably the tank has reached the correct level at that point.
That is how I understand the way the Airtrol works and served me well in past filling sessions.

Sorry as usual I got carried away with overloading with details.

I am wondering if 18-20 lbs is ok during heating operation and wanting to relieve some of the pressure if necessary.

System is operating just fine with no odd behaviors or noises.
Under 20 lbs may be ok when system is in heating mode.

I did not check the cold pressure before heating season started but may have been around 15-16.

Probably wasting everybody's time splitting hair over this.

=================================================================

You don't have to do anything!

Your heating system is running as it should and you do not have to relieve
any pressure in the system.

The air blanket above the water in the steel compression tank is absorbing
your air bubbles and allowing the cooler water to drop back into the boiler.

My coal stoker boiler with my airtrol and 15 gallon steel compression tank
and gauge glass gets that high with zero issues or fretting.

swvawethead

I can't thank you enough for the reassurances!
Will just leave it alone and enjoy glancing at the gauge anytime I am near it.

You should have been around after we moved in 1996 with zero experience in hotwater system and boilers.
Zero clue what the heck was going on, trying to fill/top up the system and blowing the fill relief valve.
Scratching my head over where the water was going which turned out to be under the slab.
And not feeling very comfortable calling anyone in our neck of the woods.

I must add, after reading up on Pumping Away, realized the Burnham was at least pumping away and had a steel tank and an Airtrol, so somebody here knew what was going on in the early 1990s.
Arcoliner next door was pulling at the return side which was corrected with the Buderus install.
Many systems I always made it a point to look at every chance, not pumping away.

Can't credit enough Mr. Holohan's books and this forum over the years.
And continuing to learn and apply the lessons next door when the Buderus replaced the oil burner.

Thanks again!!

EdTheHeaterMan

To clarify, the tank and Airtrol are from when we moved in.
There is no air management elsewhere. Yes you do!
Again, the darned system has run flawlessly but maybe I overlooked something when the Taco 007s replaced the Series 100 and another more modern (but old) B&G that burned out.

I can not be 100% sure, however it appears that you have an older Series 2. If that is true the boiler has a built in air collector at the top. The supply comes from the side of the boiler at the rounded portion of the cast iron. Look at the illustration. Just above that supply opening is the 3/4" relief valve opening. In your photos the steel compression tank is connected to that opening on the boiler, as it should be. There is no need to add some other air collector. Since you are pumping away and the compression tank is connected at the BEST location, there is nothing you need to change. You are doing it correctly for your system.

If you observe the addition that I made to the illustrations in the lower right, you will see how the water in the boiler leaves by a point just below the top, where the air can collect. As the water is heated, the dissolved air is released and will find its way to that location and if you attach a compression tank there, the Airtrol® Tank fitting will do the job for you.

EdTheHeaterMan

Micro bubble capture thingy could be added after this season but for some reason the system has been absolutely hands off with ancient wall thermostat, line voltage controls that clicks loudly when triggered. Absolute joy and ancient simple.

Don't do this. The Microbubble Air Eliminator Thingy (that is the correct technical term) is for systems with Extrol pre-charged tanks or other brands of that type of tank. All the air needed to take up the expanding water is in the air side of the tank and does not have a chance to vent out into the system (when they are working). So any air in the rest of the system needs to be vented, and the microbubble air eliminator is great for that.

Since you have the steel compression thank without a bladder or diaphragm to separate the water from that air, you want all the air you can get from the system to end up in that tank. The built in aitr scoop in the boiler and the Airtrol® tank fitting is the perfect match up.

EdTheHeaterMan

Fix this before someone gets burnt

Read item 6 on page 2 of these I/O instruction sheet for details fhttps://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.supplyhouse.com/product_files/BellGossett-110199LF-Install-Instructions.pdf

swvawethead

EdTheHeaterMan - absolutely I will get right on that. The guilty party would be me.
Thank you for pointing that out. I guess copper would be the norm.

swvawethead

EdTheHeaterMan
Thank you for the informative post about the Burnham with illustrations.
Adding your post to the 3-ring binder of boiler notes.

You pointing out the feature inside the boiler helps make sense never having to fuss with the system as it is set up now. That eliminates many of the nagging questions I've had over the years.

When I said "there is no air management elsewhere", I meant besides the steel tank and airtrol, none that I ever noticed "external" to the boiler besides following information in Pumping Away to properly pipe to the steel tank.

Ours is a P205A-WNV, plate shows 1989.
We moved in 1996.
Only fancy modern thing added was when thermocouple/gas shutoff (Honeywell) was mandated and installed during the previous homeowner.
Refreshingly 'dumb' and a nice contrast to the Buderus/Aquasmart next door.

Anything internal to the Burnham that I wondered about is the lifespan of the cast iron (?) steel jacket.
I understand the P205 has a good reputation but nothing lasts forever.
The system has alway been kept 'closed' at least since we moved in.
The standing pilot is not shut off year-round and even during warm weather I listen for the pilot light.
The cost of gas is minimal and perhaps worth the piece of mind.
Stainless burner tubes are fine and scrutinized periodically.

--------------------

The relief valve after the fill seems to have a threaded 1/2" and have on hand copper fillings, pipes, etc.
Will mosey next door to grab a fitting to check.
That's quite a drop to the floor from ceiling.

hot_rod

swvawethead said:

EdTheHeaterMan - absolutely I will get right on that. The guilty party would be me. Thank you for pointing that out. I guess copper would be the norm.

There should be a backflow device up stream of the fill assembly also

swvawethead

Good morning Hot_rod, EdTheHeaterMan.

I did notice the backflow up in the ceiling upstream from the fill valve - in the Buderus install.
Also has some sort of discharge (pex) line dropping down from it.

And the backflow preventer where town water enters the house.

Not on our Burnham setup...Will add that to the list.
House is due for getting rid of the galvanized water pipes dating back to the 50s, right up to the fill valve...

For the red B&G 30 psi PRV next to the fill valve, I have a 1/2 fitting for sweating on a 1/2" downpipe.
But....need to get 8' copper to drop down close to the floor.
Could not find enough scrap lengths to join together.
Have expansion pex stuff - not for hydronics - but don't think that's allowed.

swvawethead

The pipe for PRV, does it have to be a straight pipe to the floor?
Attached diagram shows where it goes if vertical, not ideal.
Can it be routed whichever way to end up at the floor drain?

(During the replumbing the fill valve/PRV will be relocated.)

swvawethead

Well, added the discharge pipe for the 30 lb PRV, within 2" from the floor as instructed in B&G guide.
Can this pipe be angled or make turns?
Disturbing to see nearly 8' of pipe suspended.

leonz

You want the PRV to blast the water/steam against the floor or in a bucket
to diffuse the force of the water/steam rather than have it blow against an
unsuspecting person/furbaby and for them to be scalded.

swvawethead

Leonz
Thank you and I understand the reason for the down pipe to the floor, etc. which I neglected to add when installing the new B&G pair.
I would like to know if it can be redirected so the pipe terminates couple inches above the door off the the side or behind the boiler. Or does the pipe have to be vertically down to the floor. There wasn't one for the Burnham boiler PRV when we moved in and one was added for that.

swvawethead

Have enough info on the pressure relief downpipe 'rules' after visiting inspectopedia site with real world example fotos. Very interesting code violation examples and horror stories. Yikes.
I can adjust the downpipe angle so it still terminates at a visible spot off the the side of the boiler, not at corner front creating an obstruction. No threaded ends, no fittings at discharge end.
Only adding two 45 elbows to zig zag and downward terminate vertically at the floor.

leonz

It has to be straight down, if you have a 5 gallon bucket you can shorten it a little.

EdTheHeaterMan

By Code, the safe discharge pipe needs to be directed to a safe location within 6 " of the floor or over a drain. (Your instructions are very old, from over 60 years ago when they thought 2" from the floor was a good idea. That model number is over 60 years old and they have not updated the instruction sheets). This is to have the discharge in a location that is easily seen during the weekly inspection. Not that anyone does a weekly inspection on residential boilers, but you get the idea. The discharge pipe must not be reduced, there should be a minimum number of elbows and the end of the pipe must not have threads or other means of easily adding a fitting where someone who is not familiar with the need for that pipe to stay open, might add a plug, or valve, or cap to stop it from leaking. Stranger things have happened.

So YES you can add 2 elbows the the end of the copper to extend it to the floor drain, but not IN the floor drain... OVER the floor drain

swvawethead

Thank you all.
Pipe hanging straight down for now.
It ain't pretty and obvious what needs to be done.