Seeking help evaluating hydronic heating advice and options

Katmar

I'm a homeowner with no technical knowledge. I read and enjoyed Classic Hydronics, but more for the history of the systems than the technical insights.

Two months ago we bought a small 1930s bungalow just outside of Albany, NY, with domestic hot water, two pipes, two loops with a Taco circulator on each, original cast iron rads in most of the house, and fin tube baseboards in a bed+bath addition. We have big old cast iron pipes as well as copper. During the inspection period, our inspector couldn't get the system to heat up, so he called in a tech from local heating Company A to evaluate it. The tech was able to disconnect the outdoor temperature sensor and turn it on, and then concluded ""Looks good, will just need a cleaning." October came around and we turned the system on. We got 1) terrible constant banging and 2) no heat in the loop with the baseboards. We called Company A again, and the very same tech showed up. Poor guy had a very bad day! He spent three hours at our house having feelings and then told us that we should replace the entire system, including the boiler, circulators, and most of the piping in the boiler room, at a cost of 15 thousand+.

The current boiler is a Buderus Logamax plus GB142 installed 15 years ago. Each visitor has informed me that this boiler needed regular flushing, and that it appears to have been set up in such a way to prevent that -- maybe it has never been cleaned. I'm attaching photos below. (The boiler cover is off because pipes had been placed to make its removal almost impossible -- once the last tech finally got it off, we thought it better to leave it off for the next guy.) We seem to have some corrosion on the boiler, and there is definitely a leak out the back (now filling the pictured bucket) that we can't see. The air purge valve seems not to be working, and the pressure is constantly too low (around 7psi unless I have just refilled it). The last tech to visit said the fill valve was working just fine, but that can't be the case because I need to raise it manually every few days to get the pressure back up. We are, however, getting consistent heat in the parts of the house that are actually heating. It's nice.

Company A's tech was able to close off the pipe going to the fin tube loop; he said the Taco circulator on that loop was effectively dead, which is why, he said, it was not heating. The system is now quiet, but we have no heat in that part of the house. (Though actually we DO have a warm cast iron rad in our kitchen that is positioned at the front of that loop -- it is cast iron pipes to that point and then they switch to copper after the radiator. Classic Hydronics helped me understand how it could stay warm!)

We have now paid three techs to examine the boiler and gotten three quotes to replace the boiler. All three quotes star a Navien. Then an insulation contractor was in our house and he saw the cover off on the boiler and, when I told my story, he said, "no, you don't want a Navien! You have an old refitted steam system with these huge cast iron pipes -- not for a Navien at all. You need a bigger boiler that sits on the floor and can handle all of the stuff that will come out of your old cast iron rads and pipes." So I went back and asked about this to the guys who had given us quotes, and they each said that they would add a magnetic filter.

We have a second situation, though. The shower in that baseboard-heated addition is falling apart (literally, the shower pipe broke off inside the wall) so we are now facing a bathroom renovation. During the renovation, we would like to switch the baseboards to radiators so we can carve out a pantry. Here is where things get confusing. Company A technician said that the baseboards don't work on a high efficiency radiant system because they need to run at a much higher temperature than ours does, so it is good to switch them out -- his company strongly encouraged pex radiant floor heating (for 13 thousand). Company B and C said the fin tube shouldn't be a problem on a system with cast iron rads. Company C said that we could switch them out for anything and approved my suggestion of slenderized cast iron rads (my neighbor has some on offer). Then, on a return visit, Company B said that we can't do either of those things because "you can't put cast iron on copper pipes" and furthermore that either solution will require replacing the copper pipes that feed the system, and that, anyway, any pipe work will probably crack the old cast iron ultimately forcing us to replace pipes even farther back, maybe all the way to the boiler. Adding another 10 thousand+. "Is there no way to replace the baseboards?" I asked. "Better not to do it until after the boiler replacement," he advised.

Who should I believe? Surely there must be a way to replace baseboards that won't cost me 10s of thousands -- what about steel panel ("Euro-style") radiators? -- and I wonder why no one has any ideas. But ok, they're not idea people when it comes to hydronics.

My big worry is that the completely different advice that I am getting about replacing the baseboards indicates a situation (either lack of knowledge or a desire only to sell me stuff) that could mean we end up with a very bad boiler installation and higher than necessary costs across the board.

I have read many posts on this forum, and I see that the consistent advice is to find a good contractor and then just trust them. I would like to do this! But I am new to the area, I don't have heat in part of my house, and smaller-scale contractors won't call me back. I may need to work with the greedy salesperson who returns my calls. I would be grateful for any suggestions that would help me evaluate what would be the best thing to keep our whole house heated and not think in multiples of 10K. Seriously, we are now considering a wood stove.

Thank you in advance!


Photos:

Jamie Hall

Well, the fundamental advice is sound -- find a trustworthy contractor who actually know what he or she is doing and let them have at it.

Unhappily, you seem to have found three who aren't. Worse, good ones in your area seem to be kind of rare -- you are not the first in that area to come here with a tale of woe.

Now to specific points. The folks who are concerned about a mix of fin tube and cast iron radiation have a point. It's hard to get the two balanced properly if they are on the same zone. From what I read, however, your fin tube radiation is on a different zone from the cast iron, so that's not a problem. Nor would it be particularly difficult to replace the fin tube with cast iron, as you suggest at one point, although to get good balance they have to be plumbed so that you can control the flow in the one separately from the other. Not hard, just needs to be done.

The chap who closed off the circulation to the fin tube did manage to kill the heat to that section oof the house. True. He also said that the circulator was dead. Did he test it at all? It may be that it is -- but a new circulator for that section would not be hard to put in. You even seem to have isolating valves on the circulators, so it shouldn't take more than an hour or two.

If you really have a leak in the boiler itself that is a problem. It is also a little odd, but a 15 year old boiler might be leaking, quite true. One would really have to be there to confirm a leak and its location -- I'm puzzled by the one bucket I see, as there's no way that it could be collecting a leak from the boiler where it is.

As to purging the air from the system, and you may have some, there's always a way to do it -- but one does have to really examine the piping sometimes to see what it is.

GroundUp

98% of the time, when symptoms like this persist, the problem is as simple as an airlock. Unfortunately, it sounds like you have gotten some unseasoned technicians out there to diagnose. In my experience, the vast majority of those who recommend a Navien under any circumstances are inexperienced and are only trying to make a sale. That GB142 is essentially the same style unit as anything Navien, so your insulation guy is also out in left field IMO. I realize that it's not as simple as finding a quality contractor, but my suggestion is to find a quality contractor.

neilc

see I kinda liked the insulation contractor,
give him a call back and ask who he has servicing his place,

was that steam or a gravity system ?
picture of a rad or 2 may tell,

the boiler and circs look servicable,
except for the copper blocking cover access,
maybe someone competent can adjust the copper out of the way also

pedmec

There are generally 3 leak points from a gb142 that happen pretty regularly. One is the integral trap. It's really a thin plastic trap that cracks. Two is the air vent on top of the heat exchanger. looks like it is or has leaked in the past. and the last one is the unions above the bucket. then are a consistent pest. check to make sure that those 3 things are not leaking. judging by the location of the bucket the unions might be the culprit. they are not american style unions.

The other concern for me is the cover being left off. leaving the cover off means that you're using basement air as the primary air for combustion. The basement air is very dirty. i would put that cover back on.

as for your issues ill leave that to Jamie. i need my coffee first

psb75

Someone (good) needs to open up--top and bottom--of the heat exchanger on that GB142. If it is 15 y.o. it may have serious "encrustation" on the fins. Has the ignitor and ionization rod ever been changed out? What size GB 142 is that? Look on the rating plate for output. Panel rads are a nice replacement for fin tube baseboard. Or more cast iron rads are better yet. That will allow you to lower the water temp. and get the boiler to condense.

WMno57

Katmar said:

he said ... You have an old refitted steam system with these huge cast iron pipes

Your house was never steam. The large black painted steel pipes are for 1930 gravity circulated hot water.

WMno57

Katmar said:

Company B said that we can't do either of those things because "you can't put cast iron on copper pipes"

There are issues to consider when mixing steel pipe and copper in a domestic water system because of oxygen in the water. In a hydronic heating system there is no oxygen. You can mix steel, copper, and PEX in a hydronic heating system. The PEX must be oxygen barrier PEX (to keep out the oxygen).

WMno57

Katmar said:

bigger boiler that sits on the floor and can handle all of the stuff that will come out of your old cast iron rads and pipes." So I went back and asked about this to the guys who had given us quotes, and they each said that they would add a magnetic filter.

Two kinds of boilers. Wall Hung mod cons that are a little more efficient, and Traditional Cast Iron floor boilers that can have a longer life, and be cheaper to maintain. Either will work on your pipes if INSTALLED CORRECTLY. The magnetic filter is a good idea for either type of boiler. Caleffi makes one that is highly regarded. One of their employees (@hot_rod) is a Wallie here on HeatingHelp.

WMno57

Katmar said:

Company A technician said that the baseboards don't work on a high efficiency radiant system because they need to run at a much higher temperature than ours does

Different emitters (iron baseboard, fintube, radiant in floor, etc) require different temperature water. A radiant floor requires a relatively low temp water (around 98.6 degree), otherwise your bare feet would cook. Tradition cast iron radiators can take 180 degree water which feels great sitting next to on a cold winter day.
Any boiler (wall or floor) can be piped with mixing valves (Caleffi and @Hotrod again) to send different temperature water to different emitters through out the house.
There can be fuel savings by sending lower temperature water heated by a condensing boiler (usually wall hung) to traditional cast iron radiators. The boiler may not be able to condense on the coldest days, but you might save some fuel in the spring and fall.

leonz

As you are in Albany you could contact M. FRANCINI PLUMBING AND HEATING 518-482-1243 On Monday and ask if Mr. Francini could come look at you plumbing(mess). The Francini folks are located on Castle Court off Albany Shaker Road.

It is a real shame what they did to that gravity heating system and the ones you called did not help you.

hot_rod

Mod cons work fine on systems like yours, you need a good dirt/ mag separator, for sure.

The bath could have radiant floor or panel radiators as an option. Radiant floor would be my first choice. I don't like any steel in a bathroom

If it is a small bathroom 35 square feet or smaller, you might embed a electric radiant in a new tile set. That allows you to warm the floors any time of the years without short cycling the boiler. You may be looking at a 300- 500W load, not a huge cost to warm a small bathroom in a heated home.

Now you could have a simpler one temperature boiler system for the radiators and fin tube. If the boiler is run via an outdoor reset program there will be times the radiators will be running with 120F water supply, ideal for mod con boiler efficiency.

You have some good components that may just need a cleaning and attention to some leaks in the fittings etc.

We have a knowledgable rep in your area, I could ask him for qualified hydronic companies.

Katmar

Thank you for these responses! I feel hope for the first time in the four weeks we have been dealing with this.

Jamie Hall said:

Well, the fundamental advice is sound -- find a trustworthy contractor who actually know what he or she is doing and let them have at it.

Unhappily, you seem to have found three who aren't. Worse, good ones in your area seem to be kind of rare -- you are not the first in that area to come here with a tale of woe.

I guess it's good to know I'm not alone.

Jamie Hall said:

Now to specific points. The folks who are concerned about a mix of fin tube and cast iron radiation have a point. It's hard to get the two balanced properly if they are on the same zone. From what I read, however, your fin tube radiation is on a different zone from the cast iron, so that's not a problem. Nor would it be particularly difficult to replace the fin tube with cast iron, as you suggest at one point, although to get good balance they have to be plumbed so that you can control the flow in the one separately from the other. Not hard, just needs to be done.

Can you say more about what plumbing to control the flow separately involves? Depending on who I find, I need to be specific about what I want done.

My preference would be to replace the fin tube entirely with cast iron rads. The fins are not in great condition and I think getting the system organized so that it doesn't take quite so much expertise (all the same kind of output) might be a good idea in the long term. Albany isn't going to develop more expertise in hydronic heating over the next 15 years (though it seems like I might!).

Jamie Hall said:

The chap who closed off the circulation to the fin tube did manage to kill the heat to that section oof the house. True. He also said that the circulator was dead. Did he test it at all? It may be that it is -- but a new circulator for that section would not be hard to put in. You even seem to have isolating valves on the circulators, so it shouldn't take more than an hour or two.

I'm really not sure what he was able to do because he was so upset the whole time he was in our house. I suspect that there is air in that loop. There are no access points for bleeding the fin tubes, and he complained that the system was plumbed in a way that made it impossible to do anything in that loop other than drain it entirely, which he didn't want to do because he said it would take hours. Initially he was going to just install a new circulator but then he had to decide which circulator to install. The conversation went like this:
"You could go with the cheaper Grundfors with three speeds or the more expensive Taco with just one speed."
"What's the difference between them?"
"One has three speeds, the other has only one. You should probably just go with the more expensive one."
We didn't have him install it.

We would be happy to have someone install a new circulator and see what happens but 1) if we do need to replace the boiler, it could happen at the same time for less (everyone wants to replumb that whole wall) and 2) I'm not yet sure I trust any of these people to do anything.

Jamie Hall said:

If you really have a leak in the boiler itself that is a problem. It is also a little odd, but a 15 year old boiler might be leaking, quite true. One would really have to be there to confirm a leak and its location -- I'm puzzled by the one bucket I see, as there's no way that it could be collecting a leak from the boiler where it is.

I will post pictures of the leak in another comment.

Jamie Hall said:

As to purging the air from the system, and you may have some, there's always a way to do it -- but one does have to really examine the piping sometimes to see what it is.

This has been my suspicion. It has been hard to get anyone examining the system to look at the pipes beyond the boiler room -- they don't seem interested! I have had to say "don't you want to see where the pipes go?" each time.

So I think that we are supposed to have two zones because we have two thermostats, apparently one for the main house and one for the addition. We have a Taco SR502 switching relay. However, the loop of pipe that goes to the addition (the fin tube) does have one large cast iron radiator at its start in the kitchen -- and that is actually the closest radiator to the main house thermostat. Would that pose a challenge to the zoning?

After that kitchen radiator, I can find no points on the fin tube piping to enable bleeding. Nothing on the baseboards, nothing along the pipe. Would we have to drain that whole loop (or zone?) in order to bleed it? Whatever we do with the outputs in the addition, I would like to have it plumbed for easier maintenance.

Katmar

GroundUp said:

98% of the time, when symptoms like this persist, the problem is as simple as an airlock. Unfortunately, it sounds like you have gotten some unseasoned technicians out there to diagnose. In my experience, the vast majority of those who recommend a Navien under any circumstances are inexperienced and are only trying to make a sale. That GB142 is essentially the same style unit as anything Navien, so your insulation guy is also out in left field IMO. I realize that it's not as simple as finding a quality contractor, but my suggestion is to find a quality contractor.

I have also suspected an airlock in the addition. I think the insulation guy was really concerned that there shouldn't have ever been a mod con wall unit on the system in the first place -- and that the Navien is only being offered because it's who the companies have a contract with, not because it's a good fit for the system.

I will stay focused on finding that unicorn quality contractor.

leonz

Mr. Francini has received a 5 out of 5 star rating on the local yelp page, you should call him Monday morning.

Katmar

neilc said:

see I kinda liked the insulation contractor,
give him a call back and ask who he has servicing his place,

was that steam or a gravity system ?
picture of a rad or 2 may tell,

the boiler and circs look servicable,
except for the copper blocking cover access,
maybe someone competent can adjust the copper out of the way also

Oh, I immediately asked him for a referral! That guy just hasn't called me back.

Thanks for the advice.

Here are some radiator images:

EBEBRATT-Ed

It seems that Albany is a terrible area for qualified technicians. The work up there is verry sloppy. I worked in Western Ma & Ct before I retired and only ventured to Albany a few times and what I saw was not pretty.

It's a disgrace to the State of NY. I would also take the pipe insulators advise and stay away from Navien.

Keep searching for a good contractor and good luck. there has to be someone up there that knows something.

Maybe it is a better spot for a Cast Iron boiler with the lack of knowledge up their.

Katmar

pedmec said:

There are generally 3 leak points from a gb142 that happen pretty regularly. One is the integral trap. It's really a thin plastic trap that cracks. Two is the air vent on top of the heat exchanger. looks like it is or has leaked in the past. and the last one is the unions above the bucket. then are a consistent pest. check to make sure that those 3 things are not leaking. judging by the location of the bucket the unions might be the culprit. they are not american style unions.

The other concern for me is the cover being left off. leaving the cover off means that you're using basement air as the primary air for combustion. The basement air is very dirty. i would put that cover back on.

as for your issues ill leave that to Jamie. i need my coffee first

This is really helpful. If I understand what the integral trap is correctly, it does not appear to be leaking. Yes, the air vent appears to have leaked occasionally though it isn't wet now. The unions might be the culprit.

The bucket is catching water that drips off the right side (facing it, my right). Water appears to come from the back of the boiler and then follow the plastic edge on the side. Here's a photo of the best angle I can get.





This is right below where it drips. It appears to have been dripping for some time, though we just put the bucket here. We're emptying about 1 cup of water from the bucket per day.

Katmar

pedmec said:

The other concern for me is the cover being left off. leaving the cover off means that you're using basement air as the primary air for combustion. The basement air is very dirty. i would put that cover back on.

Good to know! I wasn't sure what the downsides would be (Company B tech just said the only downside would be that it would be louder). We are having difficulty getting the cover back on, but I will prioritize this.

leonz

Please call Mr. Francini Monday morning, you need a professional to fix this the right way and reinstall a cast iron boiler for gravity heating.

It appears to me that they used flexible natural gas line for your water lines and I am not sure that is up to plumbing code.

Katmar

psb75 said:

Someone (good) needs to open up--top and bottom--of the heat exchanger on that GB142. If it is 15 y.o. it may have serious "encrustation" on the fins. Has the ignitor and ionization rod ever been changed out? What size GB 142 is that? Look on the rating plate for output. Panel rads are a nice replacement for fin tube baseboard. Or more cast iron rads are better yet. That will allow you to lower the water temp. and get the boiler to condense.

These are great questions I mostly don't have the answer to since we just purchased the house. I'm guessing that the boiler has never been serviced at all. I will raise these questions if we can find someone competent to service it!

It is a Buderus GB 142-30, which I assume refers to the size. A sticker on the boiler says 24-30 kW. (What I think is the rating plate is stuck on the side and almost impossible to read or even photograph.)

Katmar

leonz said:

As you are in Albany you could contact M. FRANCINI PLUMBING AND HEATING 518-482-1243 On Monday and ask if Mr. Francini could come look at you plumbing(mess). The Francini folks are located on Castle Court off Albany Shaker Road.

It is a real shame what they did to that gravity heating system and the ones you called did not help you.

I will call him! Thank you!

Thank you to everyone who helped identify this as a former gravity heating system.

Katmar

hot_rod said:

Mod cons work fine on systems like yours, you need a good dirt/ mag separator, for sure.

The bath could have radiant floor or panel radiators as an option. Radiant floor would be my first choice. I don't like any steel in a bathroom

If it is a small bathroom 35 square feet or smaller, you might embed a electric radiant in a new tile set. That allows you to warm the floors any time of the years without short cycling the boiler. You may be looking at a 300- 500W load, not a huge cost to warm a small bathroom in a heated home.

We'll consider this. Radiant floor is just very expensive -- almost doubling our costs for the renovation.

hot_rod said:

Now you could have a simpler one temperature boiler system for the radiators and fin tube. If the boiler is run via an outdoor reset program there will be times the radiators will be running with 120F water supply, ideal for mod con boiler efficiency.

You have some good components that may just need a cleaning and attention to some leaks in the fittings etc.

We have a knowledgable rep in your area, I could ask him for qualified hydronic companies.

I would be very grateful if you could ask him for qualified hydronic companies or contractors! Thank you!

I'm heartened by your sense that with some cleaning and attention to leaks we could keep this system going longer. Since we've been here, I haven't yet seen the water temperature go above 120, and it has often been closer to 110. I can see the advantage of a mod con for sure in the fall and spring.

leonz

You have all the piping in the basement for the gravity hot water system that was originally installed.

You should take full advantage of it and add more radiators where you which to have them as you will have slow even heat in your home that will keep it much warmer as you will give you a massive amount of thermal mass to radiate heat in the home from the radiators and the pipes in the basement.