Electric Forced Air-Improper ducting-Need to make decisions-which section should i be in?

catia1313

Moving to a house in the boonies. No Gas, no oil, no propane. Raised ranch w/full bsmt. Has electric forced air unit, 75k btu. All ducting is installed like crap. Supplies are too short, need extended, & 1/2 of them are shared. Has no cold air return ducting at all-just pulling air from bsmt floor. I need to make a decision on what to do fairly quickly. I am having health issues so DIY is going to take too long & also I am too far away from the property currently.
I am considering hiring someone to put in the ducting properly, but it is difficult to find people in the area. Elect will be the primary heat source until we get chimney/wood burner inspected & a supply of wood, so until next season...
Also am considering (don't cringe) putting in elect baseboard instead & ditching the elect forced air completely. Anything is better than electric forced air is my thought, plus it can be zoned & more efficient, since I am stuck with electric only right now.
Really what I want is hot water heat, but I am not in a financial position for that currently. I also do not want to take that project on under pressure, because the area I am moving to doesn't have very many (if any)HVAC contractors, let alone radiant/hydronic specialists. It is like I am speaking another language, so I need to keep it simple. People do not really follow any codes in the area, so I need to be very careful.
Also, just finding a contractor in the area has proven difficult. There are no HVAC contractors listed for the area on this site either.
So that I can be somewhat informed, how do I figure out if I have enough elect amps to accommodate elect baseboard? I know I have 200amp service, and that I have elect stove, HW tank, dryer, and the 75k btu elect furnace-which I want to get rid of-but I do not want to assume.

Hot_water_fan

If you can support a electric furnace you can support electric baseboard of the same output. However - it is a furnace? Or is it a heat pump? A heat pump will cost about 1/3rd as much to operate. 

Jamie Hall

Where is this place located? If it is in an area which doesn't get much below 5 above F in the winter, I'd agree with @Hot_water_fan : a heat pump. Will cost a lot less to run than the electric furnace -- or electric baseboard. There are air to hot water heat pumps also, but they take a fairly large amount of radiation to work properly, since the "hot" water they put out is not all that hot. Still, it would be a good way to go.

However, that doesn't help much with the ductwork. Depending on exactly where you are, you may have to import someone who actually knows what they are doing...

EBEBRATT-Ed

The best option would be to fix the ductwork. To do that I would recommend a heat loss be done and the ductwork correctly sized. Have someone draw up a print of the ductwork and then get some quotes. Then run the existing system for now and go for a heat pump and keep the electric AHU for back up.

That would also give you AC

If that is too expensive for your budget and you have time constraints

then electric baseboard is the way to go. Again a heat loss would be a good idea. Then you just need to find a decent electrician and turn him loose.

200amp service will be fine.

If you do that you can go heat pump in the future and keep the baseboard for a back up

Post your location. Someone may have a recommendation or know an electrician in your area.


I will take a wild guess and say upstate New York

EdTheHeaterMan

Your decision being rushed by the urgency of moving in ASAP will cause you to put money into something that you may not use after you get settled in. Exactly how bad is the ductwork? Is it able to be used until such time that you can have the job done right? Is air conditioning something you might like to have? The heat pump idea may be the best choice for you. Purchasing a heat pump with proper ductwork installed at the same time is more appealing to a contractor than just fixing bad ductwork.

If you are in such a remote area that no contractors are available, then you are in a remote area that no inspections are going to happen on a regular basis. I find that the fewer homes there are in an area, the less likely you actually need to get a permit and have an inspection. Unless you live next to the inspector's home. LOL

The inspections provided by any government agency is less about the quality of the workmanship, and more about justifying their existence by finding something to fail. I have heard an inspector tell someone that they don't enforce the quality of the workmanship, all they look for is the safety of the job they are inspecting. So a poorly designed system that is wired properly may pass inspection, while a well designed system installed by a real craftsmen will get failed because there are not enough staples holding up the wire that supplies the system. Even if that wire was existing and passed inspection years ago by the same guy, or maybe installed years ago by that inspector when he was actually working as a installer of electrical equipment and systems.

catia1313

Disclaimer: Whatever system I am forced to maintain, & later what I design to take it's place, will require things that probably won't be as energy efficient, because I will need to be able to function.
I have completely different system of trade-offs, they are basically medical 'accommodations' so that I can function day to day within my home. Things I require will be different than 99.7% of regular people. I have a very rare medical condition, & as a result, I have difficulty maintaining body temperature, to remain warm, which has been compounded by post covid complications. I need to keep the house much warmer, despite layers of wool... I do not have the same extent of issues cooling off, though my post covid complications changed that to an extent, but it is MUCH more easily managed.
There is now the added complication that I married my sweetie, & no longer live alone, so I incorporate my husband's comfort into this equation.
As luck would have it, he leans towards being too hot LOL.
We have over the years developed a system that seems to work the majority of the time. It is not like regular couples that have different levels of comfort, it is literally a hot/cold battle, on steroids. We have found sweet-spots that work for the both of us, but they do lean unfairly more towards my requirements, because it is not about just comfort for me. Not being able to maintain body heat in my environment can lead to system collapse & shock in my case.
The overly simplified quick & dirty here is that he is in shorts & a t-shirt all winter when he is in the house. In the summer, I still use long sleeves, wool & thermals & hoods/hats in the house when the AC is on.

Needed to get this out because while I do want to have the most energy efficient system I possibly can, my medical condition causes limitations. I need to consider my heating the way people with other types of disabilities would consider a wheelchair, or seeing eye dog. I pay more for heat as a result, and the issue is about to get more complicated because I will be limited to electric heating for the forseeable future.

catia1313

The home is in the rural upper north western panhandle of WV.
This presents a different battle, that of available knowledgeable contractors available to me.
I will need to do my homework. My concern is not about meeting codes for the inspector, because there are none for the most part. My concern is for meeting safety requirements that go out the window in this area. You'd be shocked at how poor the HVAC, plumbing, & electrical is in most of the houses we viewed. Most needed every mechanical system replaced or overhauled just to get them properly functional.
I'm moving from PA, THE LACK OF REGULATIONS AND LACK of ADDITIONAL TAXES that come with those regulatory bodies is very welcome. However, a certain degree of vigilance IS required from me. The culture is not going to change any time soon. More freedom requires greater responsibility.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@catia1313

Sorry for your problems. Now that you have posted your approximate location I hope someone will have a recommendation for someone in your area who can help you out.

EdTheHeaterMan

@catia1313, I feel your pain. I also suffer form a condition that prevents me form doing my chosen profession. I am now and forever wheelchair bound. The only way that I can give back, is to offer my 40+ years of experience while sitting in front of a computer screen. No more ladders for me. Basement steps are out of the question, I can't even change my own air filter on my heat pump, because it is at the other end of the pull down attic stairs. But Medicare did spring for a great new power wheelchair, Thank you to the Taxpayers of America!

Back to your situation. Unfortunately, there are only 4 contractors on the "Find A Contractor'' link at the top of the page that are remotely close to you. Probably not close enough to you. Three in eastern Ohio and one in Western PA. All miles away but it will not hurt to try them.

When this happens, I make a recommendation to look for the closest HVAC supply house in your area. Look up HVAC Wholesale Supply or Plumbing and Heating wholesale supply. There has to be something like that within driving distance to your new location. You can call them on the phone and ask for their help. They know which of their contractor customers does the best work. They are the ones that never call them up with problems. I know, I was one of those contractors that the supply houses would tell their customers about when they needed some specialized help. I was a very friendly competitor and would be happy to help others with getting problems solved.

That said, you can try to contact a wholesale supply company near your location and maybe they can guide you in the proper direction.

catia1313

I think for this season, I want to get the ducting installed/extended/fixed make it through this season with the forced air. Seems to be the path of least resistance.
This way I can plan out which type of heating I do want to have installed.
Really I want hot water heat-baseboard, not in floor. Whatever system I do choose needs to be something that can be maintained/adjusted easily by us, but if something needs fixed, there is the ability to have it done by someone locally, between the towns of Weirton & Chester WV.

WMno57

catia1313 said:

Also am considering (don't cringe) putting in elect baseboard

Do this first. Put electric baseboard in your bedroom, and the room you will be spending the most daytime hours in. Find a good local electrician to do this. Its not complicated, any competent electrician should be able to handle it.
After you get settled in to your new home, you can look into finding someone to fix/replace the duct work and install a new heat pump. There are all kinds of Government incentives for this (up to $14,000 per home), but those programs are just starting. Better to do this next year, or even 2025.
The electric baseboard is not wasting money, because it is your best and most realistic short term solution. It might come in handy in 2028 when your new heat pump is down for two weeks waiting for parts. Redundancy.

catia1313

WMno57-that's a good point about the redundancy. Thanks
Unfortunately I am up against finding contractors who will answer/return calls, then there is the actual show up...the small jobs get no call backs.
RANT:
Probably will be forced to do the ducting myself. I want my cold air returns on inside walls & the heat on the outside walls, which seems to be a CONSTANT issue, not just in WV, but all through SW PA-they all want to do it the opposite way & keep telling me I am wrong & do not know what I want.
Every time I state what I want, both 20 years ago, and again now, I get the reply:
"cold air return always goes on the cold wall" or "No, you do not understand, that cold air return always goes on the outside wall where the cold air is, that is why it is called a cold air return", "let a professional worry about the details" sometimes there is a "honey" on the end of that sentence too... It is maddening.
As soon as I get resistance, I know they will not do what I want (plus I just end up feeling they are incompetent).
Everyone says they know how to install...Inquiring about their installation technique causes tension. Being female just makes a bad situation worse.
Last time I got fed up & built & installed the entire system myself & found a licensed technician to hook up the gas line, because that was required. That was 20 yrs ago.
That same furnace, gas forced air, goodman 2 stage, is in place-still working-flawlessly & balanced-only thing I ever had to replace was the condensate pump & the digital thermostat.
Trying to find a company where I can order supplies/parts. Last time I did this I built plenum & cold air return from insulated ductboard. I was able to order everything from them & had an engineer double check my drawings, but that was because I purchased a furnace through them too.
Trying to look through old documents to find the name of the company & see if they are still in business.
I do not want to do this myself. I just do not understand why it is so difficult to get what I want.

catia1313

Update
-YAY!!!-finally found an HVAC guy out of Chester WV to come & give me an estimate tomorrow. Can you believe I got a call back on a friday night while he was running a skidsteer?! And he is squeezing me in between service calls tomorrow.

LOL 1st question I asked was "Would you have a problem installing my cold air return on an inside wall?"
Response: "No because that's the proper way to do it"
MUSIC TO MY EARS

-please send me good juju from the HVAC gods cuz I need it-I know good ones ARE out there-because I read all kinds of stuff on this site & see your pics!

EBEBRATT-Ed

@catia1313

Hope it works out.

@EdTheHeaterMan

With some supply houses they will recommend contractors based on how much they buy from that supply house. But at this point it is worth a try.

EdTheHeaterMan

I guess there are some hacks that make it big in the industry. but for the most part, if they are that big, then they must be doing something right. Good Luck @catia1313 Will be praying for your success.

catia1313

Learning the hard way...If you are moving to a small populated town & need something fixed-BEWARE NOT TO COMPLAIN about a faulty install...even if grossly inadequate or just plain wrong!!!
Chances are good that from the 1 or 2 contractors you have to choose from were the ones who installed it in the 1st place-and if not them, then one of their immediate family members...
I have yet to receive an estimate. We learned-AFTER the fact- that we scheduled with the original installer of the actual ductwork in place. Though he said he installed a propane forced air system & someone else put in the electric forced air furnace & did monkey around with the ducting...None of the supplies were ever on the correct side & there is no cold air return, but he doesn't really see it as a problem-sees it as a matter of preference that I do not want cold dusty BASEMENT FLOOR AIR feeding the house. I believe I am **** out of luck in this endeavor, as he has not responded with an estimate, but he was very polite. He also explained that the house is perfectly balanced if the upstairs is left open to the basement because it will use the air that comes down the stairs...No issue without return air ducting, just preference.
So I am gonna hafta DIY it appears.

Jamie Hall

Sorry about the lesson you have learned, but it is a good one to have learned -- for the future. +

Now on to the problem.

I very much encourage you to look at electric baseboards for the moment -- that is, for this winter. They are very easy to install. Depending on how much power you have coming in to your house, you may be able to heat a good part of the house with them without having to upgrade. A good electrician should be able to do the job very quickly, as well. In fact, it could even be a do it yourself, if... and only if... you learn, thoroughly, how to do the wiring correctly and to code (wire size, wire colours, breaker size, the whole deal) whether or not the code applies in your area.

There is one huge advantage: it isn't at all difficult to wire them so that you can control the temperature in each space separately, which might be very useful for you.

Down the road, you could then replace them (they are inexpensive; you'll not lose much money) with corresponding hot water baseboard. I know I'm going to infuriate someone, but doing hot water baseboard with PEX plumbing is also something a reasonably handy do it yourself type can do, though again you will want to get the right tools. No Sharkbite, please! It's a little harder to control individual spaces with hot water heat, but it can be done. I don't think I'd really recommend a do it yourself boiler install, but it's not impossible.

I say all this for two reasons: the first, obviously, is much better control of temperature in the individual spaces. The other, oddly, is that do it yourself ductwork is actually a lot harder to get right than wiring or plumbing.

catia1313

Thanks. I considered doing just that, but the electric furnace does work well-even as it is right now. It will just be so much easier for me to put in cold air returns, I've done it before & no messing with wiring. I can put them exactly where I want them, how I want them. Good thing is the house is WELL insulated, even between basement & 1st level-all of the joist bays have 9" insulation! That's going to be the icky part-removing fiberglass insulation so I can get the runs in. Also I will just extend a few of the supplies to the proper place. In the future, after I've lived in the house & know it's cold spots I am going to put in hot water heating. The *dream* is to have cast iron baseboard, but that is not happening this year. Most of that too will probably be DIY, for the 'grunt work' & I will bring in someone from outside the area to do the technical stuff, as it is becoming VERY CLEAR that I will not find anyone in the area that does that type of work.