Prestige Trimax Upgrade

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

Triangle Tube no longer sells igniters for the Trimax. You have to get the upgrade kit which provides a new refractory and gasket, circuit board and ignition transformer with a redesigned igniter. 

The access panel on top is not large enough to pull out the inducer fan/gas valve/lid assembly in order to replace the refractory, so you have to remove the entire top cover which is not always possible depending on venting and clearance to the ceiling. 

kcopp

I have a set of the old igniter flame rod. Holding on to it so some poor customer does not have to go through all that.
How long did it take?

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

I had left my tool bag at home - installing a bathroom fan - and all I had was my Swiss Army knife and my huge channel locks. It took me 3 hrs. and I could probably cut that in half now that I've done it once.

I also have two of the old igniters. Gold.

GGross

It is a PITA for sure, but if the fan etc could not be removed for the upgrade, how exactly were heat exchanger cleaning services being performed on the unit? I believe there were minimum service clearances for these to be able to remove the entire burner assembly to access the heat exchanger.

My favorite part of this upgrade (sarcasm) is about a year after the upgrades were originally sent out, I went to order an igniter for the upgraded ignition, and was told that they did not exist, and I would need to order a new upgrade kit and just take the igniter out. I threw a bit of a fit and eventually they made the part numbers for the new igniters.

Derheatmeister

IMO ...The cancellation/Removal of the original Flame/Ignition rod and making this "upgrade Kit" Probaly has a hidden background...
I question the Safety/Reliability of the units that are operating with the original Rods..

GGross

Derheatmeister said:

IMO ...The cancellation/Removal of the original Flame/Ignition rod and making this "upgrade Kit" Probaly has a hidden background...
I question the Safety/Reliability of the units that are operating with the original Rods..

It had to do with the way the control board (made by honeywell) worked with the ignition system. Honeywell had made changes to their board without telling anyone and it caused ignition issues with the Trimax boilers. New board made to correct specs, new igniter made to match the new ignition system, new transformer, burner insulation, and on some models flue pipe as those could have potentially been damaged with the old ignition system.

There was no hidden agenda or secret to this change, it was very public at the time. Wholesalers were sent kits to handle immediate needs once the fix was implemented, and blanket mailers were sent out in an attempt to get homeowners to upgrade while the kits were being covered by insurance, but since they had tons of units that would not have been registered, and most people don't get annual service, many units were left in their original state.

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

I threw a bit of a fit and eventually they made the part numbers for the new igniters.

Thank you!

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

The heat exchanger was surprisingly clean after 10 years. Their claim of self washing is true.

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

It is a PITA for sure, but if the fan etc could not be removed for the upgrade, how exactly were heat exchanger cleaning services being performed on the unit? I believe there were minimum service clearances for these to be able to remove the entire burner assembly to access the heat exchanger.

Twenty-four inches is probably enough, but most of the installations I see are less.

Derheatmeister

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes said:

The heat exchanger was surprisingly clean after 10 years. Their claim of self washing is true.

Is This unit allowed to Condense/Low temp operation?

Zman

I had lost all respect for Triangle Tube for not recalling all the heat exchangers they produced with defective studs on the top that randomly snapped off causing the potential for CO poisoning or fire. This is just another example of the same corporate behavior...

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

Is This unit allowed to Condense/Low temp operation?

It's a condensing boiler; designed to condense.

I had lost all respect for Triangle Tube for not recalling all the heat exchangers they produced with defective studs on the top that randomly snapped off causing the potential for CO poisoning or fire.

I've never had one snap off unless it was serviced and the stud nuts were overtightened. The torque spec. is quite low; more or less hand tight with a nut driver.

GGross

There were 2 heat exchanger manufacturers involved, Triangle Tube does not make heat exchangers, same as nearly all popular brands of boilers, they buy them. Somehow the heat exchanger manufacturing was shifted to another company, not by triangle, but by the hxc manufacturer, some kind of family argument thing. anyway that company lied about their ability to weld stainless steel. We ended up with about 1 year of hxc that had poorly welded top studs. That company still makes heat exchangers for basically all the popular firetube boilers on the market, almost nobody makes their own heat exchanger. Those 6-8 months of poor manufacturing caused Triangle Tube to end up selling their business to Ideal, so I think they have paid the price for the error of trusting their vendor.

Derheatmeister

GGross said:

There were 2 heat exchanger manufacturers involved, Triangle Tube does not make heat exchangers, same as nearly all popular brands of boilers, they buy them. Somehow the heat exchanger manufacturing was shifted to another company, not by triangle, but by the hxc manufacturer, some kind of family argument thing. anyway that company lied about their ability to weld stainless steel. We ended up with about 1 year of hxc that had poorly welded top studs. That company still makes heat exchangers for basically all the popular firetube boilers on the market, almost nobody makes their own heat exchanger. Those 6-8 months of poor manufacturing caused Triangle Tube to end up selling their business to Ideal, so I think they have paid the price for the error of trusting their vendor.

Discussions with the original full stainless steel Heatexchanger manufacturer at the ISH revealed that they disaproved subjecting the Heatexchanger to PVC exhaust pipe techniques such as we allow in the USA..Therefor and due to liability they would no longer supply Triangle Tube with Heatexchangers !

GGross

Derheatmeister said:

GGross said:

There were 2 heat exchanger manufacturers involved, Triangle Tube does not make heat exchangers, same as nearly all popular brands of boilers, they buy them. Somehow the heat exchanger manufacturing was shifted to another company, not by triangle, but by the hxc manufacturer, some kind of family argument thing. anyway that company lied about their ability to weld stainless steel. We ended up with about 1 year of hxc that had poorly welded top studs. That company still makes heat exchangers for basically all the popular firetube boilers on the market, almost nobody makes their own heat exchanger. Those 6-8 months of poor manufacturing caused Triangle Tube to end up selling their business to Ideal, so I think they have paid the price for the error of trusting their vendor.

Discussions with the original full stainless steel Heatexchanger manufacturer at the ISH revealed that they disaproved subjecting the Heatexchanger to PVC exhaust pipe techniques such as we allow in the USA..Therefor and due to liability they would no longer supply Triangle Tube with Heatexchangers !

That's nice they tried to explain it, but at the time Lochinvar had taken off in the states using the same firetube heat exchanger, the original manufacturer had cut a better deal with them which is how Triangle got shifted to another manufacturer. Lochinvar were also allowing PVC vents, so I'm not sure how much stock I would place in that particular explanation

Derheatmeister

GGross said:

Derheatmeister said:

GGross said:

There were 2 heat exchanger manufacturers involved, Triangle Tube does not make heat exchangers, same as nearly all popular brands of boilers, they buy them. Somehow the heat exchanger manufacturing was shifted to another company, not by triangle, but by the hxc manufacturer, some kind of family argument thing. anyway that company lied about their ability to weld stainless steel. We ended up with about 1 year of hxc that had poorly welded top studs. That company still makes heat exchangers for basically all the popular firetube boilers on the market, almost nobody makes their own heat exchanger. Those 6-8 months of poor manufacturing caused Triangle Tube to end up selling their business to Ideal, so I think they have paid the price for the error of trusting their vendor.

Discussions with the original full stainless steel Heatexchanger manufacturer at the ISH revealed that they disaproved subjecting the Heatexchanger to PVC exhaust pipe techniques such as we allow in the USA..Therefor and due to liability they would no longer supply Triangle Tube with Heatexchangers !

That's nice they tried to explain it, but at the time Lochinvar had taken off in the states using the same firetube heat exchanger, the original manufacturer had cut a better deal with them which is how Triangle got shifted to another manufacturer. Lochinvar were also allowing PVC vents, so I'm not sure how much stock I would place in that particular explanation

The offleaching of Chorides from the PVC which is a understud subject in Europe is the only reason they parted ways...Using PVC in Europe is Ilegal and will result in a condement of the system by the Chimney sweep.
The change in engineering of the new 'US Version" of this HX was that the Bottom of the HX was made of a PVC and a Gasket which would be able to withstand the Chorides and was mostlikely less money to manufacture...
As many of us can testify the old Full Stainless Steel Original HX was bombproof and we service many of them that are approching the 15year mark.

Teemok

I have seen more than 10 TT studs broken. Mostly on larger BTU units. I've replaced a few HX's due to it (warranty). I don't think it's just from over tightening, though that could easily do it. Other fire tubes have the same monkeys working on them (10mm studs) and I haven't seen them broken off. I've found them snapped on multiple units that had never been opened up ever. It's the physics of the heating and cooling cycling and their weld quality. The burner plate expands and contracts at different rates than the HX body. The studs fights it being pushed and pulled side to side until they let go.

I have never seen any proof or evidence of chlorides from pvc doing anything. The furnace industry uses PVC and is not seeing chlorides killing HX. That is a spit ball theory from munchkin land coffee grounds that has no evidence to back it, as far as I know. The same type of "corrosion" has been reported with poly flues. They may not like PVC flues in Europe for good reasons but I don't think pvc chlorides leaching has been proven, only suspected. If you know of any studies or stories as proof about it I'd like to read them.

Designed to condense yes but they stay cleaner longer when they are in a non-condensing application. The question: Was that HX used at a full condensing temperature?

Derheatmeister

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes said:

Is This unit allowed to Condense/Low temp operation?

It's a condensing boiler; designed to condense.

I had lost all respect for Triangle Tube for not recalling all the heat exchangers they produced with defective studs on the top that randomly snapped off causing the potential for CO poisoning or fire.

I've never had one snap off unless it was serviced and the stud nuts were overtightened. The torque spec. is quite low; more or less hand tight with a nut driver.

A Boiler Designed to Condens Stops Condensing when it is subject to a improper Install.
We have seen many Condensing boiler installs subjected to High temp situations that will never Condens ! Whaaat a Shame!

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

Oh, sorry. I see what you mean now. 

The boiler serves radiators in an apartment building. Gravity conversion with oversized rads and ODR, so boiler is condensing most of the time. 

Derheatmeister

Teemok said:

I have seen more than 10 TT studs broken. Mostly on larger BTU units. I've replaced a few HX's due to it (warranty). I don't think it's just from over tightening, though that could easily do it. Other fire tubes have the same monkeys working on them (10mm studs) and I haven't seen them broken off. I've found them snapped on multiple units that had never been opened up ever. It's the physics of the heating and cooling cycling and their weld quality. The burner plate expands and contracts at different rates than the HX body. The studs fights it being pushed and pulled side to side until they let go.

I have never seen any proof or evidence of chlorides from pvc doing anything. The furnace industry uses PVC and is not seeing chlorides killing HX. That is a spit ball theory from munchkin land coffee grounds that has no evidence to back it, as far as I know. The same type of "corrosion" has been reported with poly flues. They may not like PVC flues in Europe for good reasons but I don't think pvc chlorides leaching has been proven, only suspected. If you know of any studies or stories as proof about it I'd like to read them.

Designed to condense yes but they stay cleaner longer when they are in a non-condensing application. The question: Was that HX used at a full condensing temperature?

We have yet to see any of our installations with the original HX break the studs !
Then again we service the ignition rods every year and did not subject any of our installs to delayed ignitions (Big Bang theory).

It is a proven fact that 316 and even 427 Stainless Steel (Triangle tubes HX) do not like Chlorides especialy when the Stainless is formed,Bend and welded ...This applies even if the Argon shield is in order during the welding process and the Stainless is passified.
It is also a proven fact that PVC will release Chlorides and even break down when it is subject to heat or UV.
Do you remember Plexivent ?
Do the manufacterers of the PVC pipe approve of the using their PVC Pipe in venting applications..Nooo.. But Why ? They could sell more !

It is not that they do not like PVC flues...It is against the Code for a reason..

BTW...Our Condensing boilers like their daily showers which come in the form of the acidic condensate...keeps them nice and shinney

Teemok

"Don't like": The people who make code don't like it. "against code", I didn't mean anything different than that. I said for good reasons. I'm not defending PVC as a flue material. I don't need to I have no vested interests. It is currently maybe dominantly in use and there's nothing in the news. 90%+ furnaces, most 90%+ boilers and now 90%+ tank-less water heaters are currently using PVC flues in the tens of millions of applications.

I have not heard of or read anything that is like a proof that chlorides from PVC pipe, used as a flue, is responsible for stainless problems. Could be, it's suspected, maybe, It's a pulling at straws thing. Is it possible? I guess it is but my guess is worth as much or as little as the next guys. Where's the science? If PVC is degrading and chlorinating water or gas fogging HX's, why is it not documented? This is a potential story. Is it just being ignored. I would think it would be easy to prove if it was true. It wouldn't take millions. Do we find stainless with problems and the associated PVC flue material is in a visually unaltered state? I think so. Do we find stainless with problems with no PVC used, yes we do. Sure, you can melt PVC and get gases out of it. Is that proof of the theory? The lack of science makes the claim feel like a convenient conjecture.

"Big bang theory". It's possible. I know of three ps 250's that started smooth when I saw them the first time. The company I worked for had service records from install. Combustion checks every year, never opened. High mass slab application. All had broken studs. They may have been broken for years and no one checked them. Maybe one of our techs put a wrench on them. IDK. Fact is, I haven't seen it with other fire tubes. TT was replacing them under warranty. That says something. The stud breaking thing isn't just TT? Quality of bolts material? Quality of stud welding process? Unique thermal movement, gasket, stud and nut system? A terrible ignition problem ignored? Wish I knew for sure.

There are codes here where non-condensing equipment can't be installed. If you have an existing high temp system you are forced to run a condensing boiler in non condensing conditions. No shame. They seem to do fine they are just less efficient.

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

Yes, no shame. I like the way you think. 

I service a lot of Munchkins; some serving low mass, some serving high mass. The ones that condense have a shorter life span, so you save in operating costs, but you take it up the wazoo in replacement cost. 

It’s like the on-demand vs. storage tank vs. indirect water heater argument.  If you look at your utility bill, average is $25/month for DHW. Why all the fuss?  Get an appliance that will last with something easy to service, like a tank-type, atmospheric gas water heater that will give you plenty of hot water, even when the power is out. 

Jury is out with heat pumps. It’s the new Kim Kardashian, Paris Hilton, Gangnam style heating system……..It’s free - pull your heat out of the outside air, even when it’s freezing.  OK, so there are problems in the middle of Winter when it’s very cold and there’s no one to service it. We’ll see what happens these next few months with all these off-shore installs. I hope I’m wrong. 

Teemok

When physics, engineering and economic meet we get.... we'll see.

tim smith

Broken studs were our nemesis, had our asme weld shop weld new studs on and reinforce the ones that were still attached when we found broken one. Almost 90% of them were 399s. Once in a while 175s. We have probably dealt with 20 of them. Most the time we would come one year and all ok then the next year we would find 1,2 or 3 popped off sometimes just laying on plate or in bottom of boiler. Other times they would spin off when trying to pull nuts off to get top off. I am pretty sure they were just spun welded on. Now they are tigged on and won't break off.

tim smith

Alan, take a silfos flat brazing rod and go down the left & rt side of each tube and see how many will let the rod go down to bottom. Rods are usually 24 " long. We find many with 30 -70% blocked down inside tubes. But usually we will see more grounds on the top tube sheet than I see on yours. Just an fyi to check.
Tim