Old church, stained glass windows, weird steam heating loop.

boilerman06

Hello, I have a old church in Brooklyn Ny. I’m working on. I’ve worked in many a old church but this is the first time seeing this. 

So, the church is heated mainly by in flor steam gravity air convectors. But only on two of the large windows you can see from the pictures have steam pipes. 

So on the base of the floor there is a loop, then there is a loop below lower window & if you look close there is another loop below the top section. 

Church would like to remove these pipes. 

I’m wondering if there is a legit reason for being there. Maybe to prevent condensation? Or to stop cold drafts from dropping down? 

Any input would be great. There there for a reason ! Thanks in advance! 

mattmia2

What's going on with that wall? Were there convectors in that wall that were removed and replaced with that? If there isn't something to add heat to that area it is going to be cold.

boilerman06

Nothing going on with the wall, there are perimeter two pipe steam radiators along with the in floor convectors. 

What you see is how it’s been. They just replaced the floor & now repairing the walls etc. they want the pipes removed for aesthetics. I hate to remove them the dead men put them there for a reason. 

EBEBRATT-Ed

@boilerman06

I agree someone put them there for a reason. Probably condensation and a little heat. I would leave it as is.

If they force you to remove them i would get something in writing so you will not be responsible. They probably serve as pipe radiation.

neilc

I think you IR picture shows,
just a little heat source under the windows to keep that chill off,

sit in a back row and listen carefully to the whispers

mattmia2

They're there to make up for the heat loss of the windows. There are other ways you could do it that would be more elegant but you can't just remove them and not put something back.

The way the baseboard is notched and has various pieces of trim that were framing something out and the way the plaster just kind of ends above the baseboard instead of being gauged in to the ground behind it tells me that there was something that was removed from that wall although I don't know what, could have been some built in furniture or millwork or something like that.

neilc

neilc said:

I think you IR picture shows,
just a little heat source under the windows to keep that chill off,

or to temper any cold air dropping,

Steamhead

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

@boilerman06

I agree someone put them there for a reason. Probably condensation and a little heat. I would leave it as is.

I agree, probably to eliminate condensation on the stained-glass windows. ISTR a similar situation was involved in the invention of the Paul system, but can't find the article quickly- @DanHolohan ?

Jamie Hall

I agree -- condensation and draughts. Has the church put any kind of protective glazing on the outside of the windows? That is sometimes done...

bburd

You might suggest painting them to match the surrounding construction. That way they would be less obvious.

Mad Dog_2

The Steam Heat's been working 💪 like a Champ for 150 years..and now "the board" wants to remove them?  "They're UGLY!."  Nope, would not touch a hair on their heads.  We know how unforgiving ANY change in a Steam system can throw everything out of whack.  Let someone else do it...dont get dragged in to that.  Mad Dog 🐕 

EdTheHeaterMan

I think these modern speakers should be covered over or removed. They don't go with the period furnishings and appointments.

Just paint the pipes. Those pipes are old anyway. They are a better match than the speakers

JUGHNE

I would say without that heat there the windows would sweat and eventually be destroyed.

A 1915 church I service has beautiful windows with CI rads under each.
Some members wanted to put rad covers on the "ugly" rads.

I stated that the rads are correct for the period design.

I asked then why not put curtains on the windows also.

They seemed to take the point and left things as they are.

Erin Holohan Haskell

Steamhead said:

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

@boilerman06

I agree someone put them there for a reason. Probably condensation and a little heat. I would leave it as is.

I agree, probably to eliminate condensation on the stained-glass windows. ISTR a similar situation was involved in the invention of the Paul system, but can't find the article quickly- @DanHolohan ?

@Steamhead, it's here: https://heatinghelp.com/news-and-media/dead-men-tales/the-paul-system-and-other-delightful-discoveries/

"Chances are you’ve never heard of Andrew Paul, but he was once the General Sales Manager of the Fairbanks Company. They make valves, and Mr. Paul helped design them.

Andrew Paul was sitting in his office one day, looking up at the steam coil in the skylight that was giving them all fits.

The coil kept binding up with air, which kept the steam from entering. Where there is air, steam will not go, and that’s why we use steam air vents.

Since this coil was air-bound, ice was forming on the inside of the skylight and water was dripping on the folks below. Not good.

One day, Andrew Paul noticed to his delight that the coil was now working. He spotted a small, brand-new pipe that connected to the outlet of the coil.

His friend and coworker, Bill Skiffington, looked over and smiled. Bill had added that pipe, hooking it up to a small vacuum pump to get rid of the air that was blocking the steam.

A magazine of the time reported that Andrew Paul then said, 'Great Scott, man, do you realize what this means? You must get this patented at once!'"

Intplm.

Maybe as a compromise, rather than getting rid of them lower the horizontal pipes to just above the currently installed pipes that are at the baseboard level. Move them so they are just above the already installed pipes that are down there.
This way they can still do what they are supposed to do while allowing for a better look.
I would also do what @EBEBRATT-Ed says above. "Get something in writing" If they push to get rid of them.
They are there for a reason. If its to protect the stained glass and the window pains then do nothing.
Maybe recommend painting the pipes as mentioned above. But if they are not offering a major function. Lower them to baseboard level.

jesmed1

@boilerman06 I know you're a heating guy and not a carpenter, but I would suggest telling the church members to have a carpenter build a plywood panel cover for the pipes, open at the top and bottom to allow airflow. Have the panels extend down to the plaques that describe each window, and mount the plaques on the panels, so the panels look like they have a reason for being there. Paint the panels the same color as the wall, and they'll blend right in.

JUGHNE

The wood cover is an excellent idea. If open top and bottom, it would become a convector and actually direct the hot air up even quicker.

The taller the box the better air flow.

reggi

mattmia2 said:

They're there to make up for the heat loss of the windows. There are other ways you could do it that would be more elegant but you can't just remove them and not put something back. The way the baseboard is notched and has various pieces of trim that were framing something out and the way the plaster just kind of ends above the baseboard instead of being gauged in to the ground behind it tells me that there was something that was removed from that wall although I don't know what, could have been some built in furniture or millwork or something like that.

Definitely... If nobody knows they should go through their archives or older photos as there are probably plenty of that area over the years to see the original setup as you don't want to open Pandoras Box with as MD says " a system thats been working 150 years" ( something like that)

Mad Dog_2

Amen  mad Dog 🐕 

mattmia2

Who flagged my comment as off topic? What is happening with that wall is very much important if someone removed some emitters and put that piping in its place in say the 40's.

neilc

mattmia2 said:

Who flagged my comment as off topic? What is happening with that wall is very much important if someone removed some emitters and put that piping in its place in say the 40's.

that might have been my fat fingering while reading,
I went back and erased it,
nothing intentional,
I usually catch my fat fingers as I do them,
I must have been speed reading

neilc

you do know you can hover over those face emblems and the user name will pop up, right?

mattmia2

I think it still hides it for off topic. it used to hide it for disagree but not anymore. as we actually drift off topic...

neilc

topic, hot under glass, good,

EdTheHeaterMan

mattmia2 said:

Who flagged my comment as off topic? What is happening with that wall is very much important if someone removed some emitters and put that piping in its place in say the 40's.

It wasn't me

weatherman

I agree that the pipes although not Fintube, provide some form of radiant energy for the glass and could be trimmed out with a face plate if you will that was open on the top and bottom and painted to blend in.
This would enhance the performance of the exposed pipes by encapsulating and directing the radiant energy of the pipes upward.
I would also line the faceplate with foil wrap to improve the performance as well as keep the temp down on the wood.

Lance

I found this conversation telling me more about the commentors than what I see as normal in my training. I saw the pipe and the windows and asked myself what the problem or symptoms were that caused the placement of the piping. So, I thought, what happens on the glass when it's cold outside and its warm and moist inside? Then I thought who would complain or see the symptoms and what would they want to do about it? So, if I was sitting there what would I feel? A cold draft. Clue 1. Next, I thought what would the glass be doing? It would be frosting on the inside if cold and humid enough. And that would cause water damage when in thawed. So how to fix it? That solution is plainly evident by the pipes. And why just pipes and not a radiator? it's simple; it did the job and was less visible than anything larger. And as they say if it is painted the same color as the wall it disappears after a while. Usually, it is the unexpected results that create the unusual solutions to problems short of more expensive options. Dan said think like steam and air, we also need to think like people and buildings in how they react, feel, and perform when confronted with everyday changes.

ncalhvac

Pass this along to the owners of the Church. https://www.buildingconservation.com/articles/stained-glass-enviro/stained-glass-enviro.html

jblum

I have never seen something similar despite inspecting many old churches. Most churches have big free-standing or enclosed radiators under the windows. I agree with others who surmised that the steam pipes were added to solve a problem. Specifically, the problem might have been ice buildup on the inside of windows during the week when the heat was off, which would melt when the sanctuary was fully heated for Sunday services creating a mess.

One way the pipes might be covered is by installing perforated metal covers with the open side facing up.