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Question re siding; oil tank install failed inspection, being fixed, what about siding holes?

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Freedom
Freedom Member Posts: 56
edited September 2023 in Oil Heating
Original thread is here: https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/193253/what-do-i-need-to-know-re-getting-a-new-oil-tank/p1

This morning I was surprised to see my oil company installation team back. Seems the outside part failed the inspection. The fill pipe and vent have to be further from the window, and higher. Being fixed now. Turning the elbow, adding pipe towards the front of the house, another elbow, and pipe up.

My question is re the holes in my siding from the support work. 4 holes. I think these need to be filled. He does not have any clear silicone. This is cedar impressions, you can't just take out that strip and put in a new one; each strip is nailed on separately. Thoughts? Am I being too picky?


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Comments

  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 6,505
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    I'd wouldn't have tank guys fixing my siding. And silicone doesn't last forever. A siding person could easily slide a piece of flashing up there for a permanent fix. Replacing the piece isn't that hard either for a siding person, but will it match?

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 5,731
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    Always hire the pros...then they don't know the code anyway, smh
    NJ Steam Homeowner. See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
    FreedomCLambdko
  • Freedom
    Freedom Member Posts: 56
    edited September 2023
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    I'd wouldn't have tank guys fixing my siding. And silicone doesn't last forever. A siding person could easily slide a piece of flashing up there for a permanent fix. Replacing the piece isn't that hard either for a siding person, but will it match?


    This is cedar impressions siding. Each strip is nailed on individually. To replace the piece requires starting at the top and removing each piece. NOT an easy fix, not even for a siding person. Which is why I am asking. I would not expect the oil company to do the job, but if I go this route I expect them to pay for it.

    I don't know how critical 4 holes in the siding is, long term. That's what I am asking about, I guess. So perhaps I should be in a different forum, a siding forum? Dunno.
    mattmia2
  • Freedom
    Freedom Member Posts: 56
    edited September 2023
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    This is the fix: Oh, for goodness sakes, what is that crappy BROWN bar on the fill pipe, top? I guess he ran out of the new ones?

  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,779
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    The main issue with silicone RTV is it gets dirty.
    If it was mine, and that's a place that generally doesn't get rained on I'd leave it. If I was concerned about water I'd put some RTV in the holes, but I wouldn't want the tank guys doing it.

    I'm sure you could buy a small tube of RTV and do it your self, probably better than they can. You actually care.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    FreedomethicalpaulDave Carpentier
  • PC7060
    PC7060 Member Posts: 1,173
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    Freedom said:
    I'd wouldn't have tank guys fixing my siding. And silicone doesn't last forever. A siding person could easily slide a piece of flashing up there for a permanent fix. Replacing the piece isn't that hard either for a siding person, but will it match?
    This is cedar impressions siding. Each strip is nailed on individually. To replace the piece requires starting at the top and removing each piece. NOT an easy fix, not even for a siding person. Which is why I am asking. I would not expect the oil company to do the job, but if I go this route I expect them to pay for it. I don't know how critical 4 holes in the siding is, long term. That's what I am asking about, I guess. So perhaps I should be in a different forum, a siding forum? Dunno.
    This is a common situation and any siding guy will know how to handle it. 
    SuperTech
  • Freedom
    Freedom Member Posts: 56
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    Yes, thank you @PC7060 But my question is, do I NEED to get the holes fixed? I guess as folks post answers, I am clarifying my question.
  • jesmed1
    jesmed1 Member Posts: 560
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    Silicone and RTV have their place, but they won't leave a smooth uniform surface that blends in with the surface of the siding. I'd use an epoxy putty called SteelStik, which is naturally gray, and will have a moldable surface like clay. So you can press some into the hole, then use your finger or a putty knife to tool it smooth, and perhaps even add some surface striations so it blends visually into the surround shingle.

    https://www.amazon.com/J-B-Weld-8267-SteelStik-Reinforced/dp/B00RN7CT2U/ref=sr_1_3?crid=3R5OA5QTG95CD&keywords=steelstik+epoxy&qid=1695822530&sprefix=steelstik+epoxy,aps,107&sr=8-3&th=1
    Freedom
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 5,731
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    Oh, for goodness sakes, what is that crappy BROWN bar on the fill pipe, top?


    Unless you paint those fittings, they'll all soon be brown too
    NJ Steam Homeowner. See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
    mattmia2CLamb
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,779
    edited September 2023
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    Yeah,
    Those pipes and the hangers needed to be properly cleaned, primed and painted.

    That's a whole lot more fun than filling those small holes. And if you don't get it completely clean, and oil and dope free you're going to have rust coming thru the paint or paint flaking off in a year or 2.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    ethicalpaulFreedom
  • Freedom
    Freedom Member Posts: 56
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    Thanks. I have the paint, which matches the siding. Been waiting for a few days of NO RAIN. Since the 2d week of June, we have had rain, rain and more rain. Year without a Summer. I will get it all painted, as soon as I have 48 hours of NO RAIN.

    Weather aside, I could have had the old ones painted by now. The Fire Dept inspector told me it was all fine. So I paid the bill and got the paint job on my To Do list. So in that respect, glad of the rain, saved me the time.
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,741
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    Freedom said:

    This is the fix: Oh, for goodness sakes, what is that crappy BROWN bar on the fill pipe, top? I guess he ran out of the new ones?

    The rest are galvanized, that one is epoxy coated. Both should be malleable iron, just a different coating. I'm with you it looks sloppy considering you are paying good money for the work.

    https://www.supplyhouse.com/Piers-CLF-G38-3-8-Electro-Galvanized-Ceiling-Plate
    https://www.supplyhouse.com/Piers-CLF-EC38-3-8-Copper-Epoxy-Coated-Ceiling-Plate

    As far as the holes in the siding, some paintable caulk and touch up the paint would do it. Or a flexible wood epoxy filler, some sanding and painting would make it like new again. Or, as suggested some silicone caulk and be done.

    The solution depends on how much time and money you want to put into it.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
    ethicalpaulFreedom
  • Freedom
    Freedom Member Posts: 56
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    @KC_Jones thank you for the links re the plate. This helps me understand what the heck I am looking at. Much appreciated.
    PC7060
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,616
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    I still don't understand the vent pie being shorter than the fill. maybe I am nuts but I was always told the vent should be above the fill. This was a requirement in the old MA code. Now that Ma has adopted the NFPA 31 I don't see that requirement in the NFPA code. @STEVEusaPA thoughts??
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 9,740
    edited September 2023
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    Vinyl siding isn't watertight, the barrier behind it is designed to shed any water that gets behind it. Just seal the holes with some caulk. If you want to get really fancy, use a hooked flat tool to pop the siding with the holes in it off the lip on the course below, lif it up, fill the holes in the membrane with tape or caulk, fill the holes in the siding from the back and pop it back over the lip on the course below. There should be an installation manual for that siding that tells how to pop it apart.

    EDIT:

    You could also replace the panel after you pop it off too if you have extra. You'd pop off the course above in that case.
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 6,505
    edited September 2023
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    Freedom said:



    ...This is cedar impressions siding. Each strip is nailed on individually. To replace the piece requires starting at the top and removing each piece....

    I'm very familiar with your siding, but you're incorrect about how to fix that siding. It's a simple fix. The way I suggest has been done on roofing (asphalt, cedar, tile, slate) and siding, especially actual cedar shakes for over a hundred years.

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 6,505
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    I still don't understand the vent pie being shorter than the fill. maybe I am nuts but I was always told the vent should be above the fill. This was a requirement in the old MA code. Now that Ma has adopted the NFPA 31 I don't see that requirement in the NFPA code. @STEVEusaPA thoughts??

    Yeah I don't see anything in 31 either. Just some highlights:
    8.6.2 ...not less than 2ft. from any building opening.

    There is a mentions of "...in accordance with NFPA 30A..." regarding fill pipe termination so maybe it might mention it there.

    I think it just has something to do with physics. When you take the nozzle off the fill without slowly releasing pressure, it creates like a back pressure and it could back out of the fill.
    I still do it with the vent higher, but no one is checking in my area. I usually have to tell the Fire Marshall the code.

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 6,505
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    mattmia2 said:

    Vinyl siding isn't watertight, the barrier behind it is designed to shed any water that gets behind it. Just seal the holes with some caulk. If you want to get really fancy, use a hooked flat tool to pop the siding with the holes in it off the lip on the course below, lif it up, fill the holes in the membrane with tape or caulk, fill the holes in the siding from the back and pop it back over the lip on the course below. There should be an installation manual for that siding that tells how to pop it apart.

    EDIT:

    You could also replace the panel after you pop it off too if you have extra. You'd pop off the course above in that case.

    It's not vinyl.

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 9,740
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    It looks like vinyl:
    https://www.certainteed.com/resources/cedar-impressions-s7-perf-install-guide-ENGLISH.pdf

    This is the tool since they don't show it in the instructions. I just use a piece of sheet metal bent to the same shape:
    https://www.malcoproducts.com/product/vinyl-siding-removal-tool/
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 8,068
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    I still don't understand the vent pie being shorter than the fill. maybe I am nuts but I was always told the vent should be above the fill. This was a requirement in the old MA code. Now that Ma has adopted the NFPA 31 I don't see that requirement in the NFPA code. @STEVEusaPA thoughts??

    Here is my solution: Now the vent is higher. Easy Peasy

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    FreedomCTOilHeat
  • Freedom
    Freedom Member Posts: 56
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    @STEVEusaPA yes, it is vinyl siding. Installed in 2014, at that time the installer told me the only way to replace one strip is to remove all the strips above it. So that is what I was relating. Since each strip is nailed on separately, I'm not sure how you can remove just 1 or 2.

    I phoned the Fire Dept. Inspector, left a voicemail message. Said I would have liked to know it failed inspection, I would not have paid in full.

    He called me back. It has failed TWICE! First time, too close to the window, so they came and lowered it. Failed again, too low. So today is the third try. I had NO IDEA all this was going on!

    I spoke about the holes in the siding, he said their workmanship is not of concern to him, only safety. I tried to explain I would have more leverage getting them to pay costs to repair, he said this should not cost me anything. Around and around, I gave up in the end.

    @mattmia2 yes you have the correct siding product.
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 6,505
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    Freedom said:

    @STEVEusaPA yes, it is vinyl siding. Installed in 2014, at that time the installer told me the only way to replace one strip is to remove all the strips above it. So that is what I was relating. Since each strip is nailed on separately, I'm not sure how you can remove just 1 or 2.

    I phoned the Fire Dept. Inspector, left a voicemail message. Said I would have liked to know it failed inspection, I would not have paid in full.

    He called me back. It has failed TWICE! First time, too close to the window, so they came and lowered it. Failed again, too low. So today is the third try. I had NO IDEA all this was going on!

    I spoke about the holes in the siding, he said their workmanship is not of concern to him, only safety. I tried to explain I would have more leverage getting them to pay costs to repair, he said this should not cost me anything. Around and around, I gave up in the end.

    @mattmia2 yes you have the correct siding product.

    If it's vinyl its even easier, using the tool @mattmia2 mentioned.
    I thought it was hardie backer siding.

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

  • Freedom
    Freedom Member Posts: 56
    edited September 2023
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    That tool is for normal vinyl siding; look at the photos. It won't work on cedar impressions. In the photo, it has at least 2 lines of siding as one piece. The tool is to unhook the bottom lock.

    Cedar impressions does not work like that.


  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 9,740
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    It hooks over a lip on the course below the same way as any other vinyl siding as far as i can see. The tool pulls the bottom of the course above down so you can unhook it from the lip.
  • Freedom
    Freedom Member Posts: 56
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    I can easily lift any single piece, nothing is locked.
  • Freedom
    Freedom Member Posts: 56
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    FINALLY, this morning the Fire Inspector came again and approved the outside. DONE.

    Now I can do the painting. And fill the holes.
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 8,068
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    Will a hot glue material make a good seal on that vinyl? I'm sure there is a crafter in the neighborhood with one of those, you can borrow. If your significant other is not already a crafter.

    Please send pictures of the completed, painted project. You might even add this sticker near the fill pipe jyst to confuse the driver.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    Freedom
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 5,863
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    Done.
    dkoFreedomMikeAmannSuperTech
  • Freedom
    Freedom Member Posts: 56
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    @EdTheHeaterMan per your request





    EdTheHeaterManWMno57SuperTech
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,255
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    Are the pipes chiseled down into the concrete? If. So dump a bucket of water there.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Freedom
    Freedom Member Posts: 56
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    @hot_rod The original pipes came out the foundation here. I refused to allow new holes to be drilled in the foundation. I had visions of 68 year old concrete clocks disintegrating, giving me more headaches. :D So I insisted they use the same holes for the new pipes.

    A few years back I had new concrete poured for the front patio. For reasons unknown, the company raised the patio several inches.

    Now there was no way to get a pipe wrench on the pipes, let alone turn it to tighten the joins. The oil tank installation team had to use a drill to carve out around the old pipes so they could work. Since the new pipes are a bit larger, they had to also enlarge the hole in the vinyl siding. I made sure they sealed inside and out so I do not get mice in the cellar. And I asked if I had to do anything to prevent ice forming in that dip, or does it not matter. They had no idea as they have never done a job like this. This is the background.

    I do not understand why you suggest dump a bucket of water there? What are you getting at, please? Remember, I am a 65 y o female on my own, trying to manage this project at the house my folks built before I was born; I grew up here. Thank you.
    ethicalpaulMikeAmann
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,779
    edited October 2023
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    @Freedom I know it's a bit late now but, if they're concrete blocks they wouldn't have any issue.

    Cinderblock, maybe. Concrete block, no.
    There's a very big difference between the two and they're easily to tell apart unless they're painted.


    Concrete blocks look almost like cinderblocks, same shape etc but concrete blocks are made literally of concrete. Cinderblocks are more crumbly etc, and in my experience have a blue hue where concrete is grey.

    I'm sure there's variations, but I've never had a problem telling the difference in person, unless like I said, it's painted then it may get difficult.


    Concrete block





    Cinder block



    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    Freedom
  • Freedom
    Freedom Member Posts: 56
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    I did not know this, thank you @ChrisJ.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,779
    edited October 2023
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    Freedom said:

    I did not know this, thank you @ChrisJ.


    Is yours concrete, or cinder?

    If it's concrete, there's little you could do to hurt it even if it's 100 years old. Cinderblock, I'd keep an eye on and try to keep water away from the foundation as best you can.

    They had concrete block in the 1930s I think, but they also were using cinderblock even later on. The house I grew up in was built in 1958 and that was 100% cinderblock.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Freedom
    Freedom Member Posts: 56
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    @ChrisJ I'm not sure what I have, now. I think it is concrete.

    Can you tell from this photo? Old picture from this thread. If not, I'll have to take photo specifically to identify this. I agree, it would be good for me to know which I have.



    c
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,779
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    That's a pretty low resolution picture, and it's painted. So, I wouldn't want to guess.

    Maybe someone else can tell by something they see, or the dimensions. @Jamie Hall ?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Freedom
    Freedom Member Posts: 56
    edited October 2023
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    I took some photos. Most of the inside cellar was painted a few years ago, but that one area behind the old oil tank is not, they could not reach there. Then the foundation outside was painted about 2000, the paint is chipped and peeling and needs fixing. Knowing what I have will help address the outside. I found one small area not painted. Do any of these help? @ChrisJ Not sure why they aren't in order, sorry.



    rc="https://us.v-cdn.net/5021738/uploads/editor/35/zcaoo2bz3jyh.jpg" alt="" />

  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,779
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    That looks like concrete block to me.

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    ethicalpaulFreedom
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,616
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    Too late now but I would have just made new holes. There is nothing that can't be patched weather it is cinder block or concrete block it does not matter
    SuperTech
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,779
    edited October 2023
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    Too late now but I would have just made new holes. There is nothing that can't be patched weather it is cinder block or concrete block it does not matter

    I suppose there's some truth to that.
    Though you won't see me boring any large holes through my fieldstone. I promise that much.


    I'm actually curious why the guys didn't go thru the sill in the OP's case?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment