Taco 007-F5 Replacement — Alaska, Help Needed

ryanthevan

Hello. I am very new to boiler systems and have very rudimentary knowledge. I live in a remote area of Alaska and no one is able to come and look at my system for weeks, maybe months, and winter is almost here. I have spent several hours on youtube and these forums and believe I have isolated my issue. This is my first home with a boiler heater: a Weil-McLain installed ~22 years ago that runs hot water through radiant baseboards in the house.

When I flipped the switch to turn on the boiler for the season, the flame ignited, the boiler heated to 180/200f depending on the gauge, the inbound pipes warmed up over time, but the return pipes remained cold. There seems to be circulation problems.

The circulator pump (Taco 007-F5) doesn't seem to be vibrating or making any noise at all. Am I correct in thinking that this is probably the issue? The pipes are cold all around it even and running the boiler for a while, and it makes zero noise or movement. I checked the wiring to it and nothing seems obviously corroded or disconnected.

I watched some youtube videos on how to replace the circulator pump I have (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAERKdzsMvk) however I did have some questions on how to isolate my pump, as it's placement seems to be different than many that i see online.

I have taken some photos of my system and attached an overview to this post.

I am curious as to:

- Does it sound like I am diagnosing the system correctly? That is, should I replace the circulator pump? I would likely get the same model and swap it for ease.

- Am I correct in identifying my outtake and return valves? I believe my return valves are on the left since they stay cold. That would mean the circulator is piped into the return valves.

- How do I isolate the system properly so I don't flood my utility room? I see shutoffs on what I believe to be the return valves (purple circle) another valve that I think might be a shutoff (green circle) the circulator itself (red circle) and then it just pipes straight into the unit (yellow valve).

- Will I likely need to refill and bleed my system afterwards? That would be another challenge but willing to give it a try.

Thanks so much in advance. Really in a tight spot here.

hot_rod

Do you have a volt meter to see if it is getting power? It could be a bad relay, or wire connection. If so give it a gentle tap with a plastic hammer or wooden block. sometimes that starts a stuck pump. That would be the first step before replacing. A good idea to have a replacement regardless.

Three valves to shut off. Water fill, it should be near this valve. Red handle above pump, green circle

Also the other red handle wheel above the right hand side of the boiler.

Drain down the yellow valve.

EBEBRATT-Ed

This looks like primary secondary to me but can't see behind the flue pipe. What is going on with that? Are there additional circulator(s) somewhere else? If not then the problem could also be with the zone valves or zone valve end switches. There is at least 2 zone valves I can see.

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

Yes, you could have bad pump. After the boiler has been on for awhile, carefully touch the body of the pump. If you have to pull your hand away quickly because it's too hot (hotter than the water), it's probably bad.
If you have a clamp-on amp meter, put it around one of the wires in the wiring box of the pump. If over .52 amps, it's bad.

ryanthevan

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

This looks like primary secondary to me but can't see behind the flue pipe. What is going on with that? Are there additional circulator(s) somewhere else? If not then the problem could also be with the zone valves or zone valve end switches. There is at least 2 zone valves I can see.

This appears to be the only circulator. Attached are some other pictures I took showing other angles.

ryanthevan

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes said:

Yes, you could have bad pump. After the boiler has been on for awhile, carefully touch the body of the pump. If you have to pull your hand away quickly because it's too hot (hotter than the water), it's probably bad.
If you have a clamp-on amp meter, put it around one of the wires in the wiring box of the pump. If over .52 amps, it's bad.

After running the boiler for many hours, the pump and pipes on both ends of it remain cold, as do the return pipes.

The feed pipes, however, seem to get hot over time, perhaps conducting heat from the boiler.

ryanthevan

hot_rod said:

Do you have a volt meter to see if it is getting power? It could be a bad relay, or wire connection. If so give it a gentle tap with a plastic hammer or wooden block. sometimes that starts a stuck pump. That would be the first step before replacing. A good idea to have a replacement regardless.

Three valves to shut off. Water fill, it should be near this valve. Red handle above pump, green circle

Also the other red handle wheel above the right hand side of the boiler.

Drain down the yellow valve.

Thanks for the reply. I will borrow a voltmeter and verify if it is getting power. That would be a lovely, easy, fix. I did check to make sure the wiring connections were good in the casing and also tapped it a few times, but will verify and try this all again.

If that fails and I need to replace the circulator pump, I will follow your drain directions.

1. close red handle above pump (green circle)
2. close "other red handle wheel above the right hand side of the boiler." It looks like this is where the water comes in from my main well/filter system. I assume you are talking about the right red valve in the picture.
3. "Drain down the yellow valve." Do you mean drain out the brass valve in the picture below?

Thanks again!

HVACNUT

When you raise the thermostats for the heat to come on, do the levers on the Zone valves move freely? They should.
Try to jump out TT in the aquastat where the Red and White low voltage wire are. Depending on the configuration of the aquastat, that should power the circulator, and the burner if its below limit temperature. 

If you get the meter and you're able to verify a bad circulator, you might be better off just replacing the cartridge. It's just 4, 5/16 screws rather than dealing with those nuts, bolts, and gaskets. Replace the O-ring also. You'll see when you separate the new circulator. 

You can easily isolate the boiler from the system. 

Shut off the power.

Shut off the Red valve on the right. Tighten the cap on the air vent on the left.

Close the gate valve (green circle). That valve looks a little cruddy too so if you want you can leave it and shut the 4 ball valves (purple).
I would try the gate valve and tighten it's packing nut and body if needed, otherwise you might have to purge.
Connect a 6 ft washer hose to the boiler drain. Get a 5 gallon bucket.

Disconnect the wiring to the circulator. 

Open the boiler drain and drop the boiler pressure to zero. As soon as water stops coming out of the hose, shut off the valve. 

Loosen the screws on the circulator cartridge and tap the motor to break it free. There will be some water but not under pressure. If water keeps backing up the return, you can open the boiler drain again to drop the level.

Remove old cartridge. Clean the area. New O-ring. New cartridge. Tighten evenly. 

Make sure boiler drain is closed.

Slowly open valve on right (supply) and loosen cap on the air vent.

Let the boiler fill.

When there's pressure on the boiler, open the return gate valve, and/or the ball valves. 

Wire the circulator. 

Turn power back on and check.

If the circulator now runs but the loops need to be purged, we'll jump off that bridge if we get to it.

If all zones heat fine, keep running them until the burner shuts off on limit. Then make sure the pressure is still good (approximately 12-15 psi) at limit.

hot_rod

Probably cheaper to buy an entire pump. If it is 22 years old, replace the motor and cartridge

You can leave the body in place, remove the 4- 5/16 hex bolts and replace everything

Removing it at the flanges may be more of a task

The pump could be running and the system air locked. One step at a time

EBEBRATT-Ed

You need a meter to check power to the circ pump that is the first thing. Usually, the thermostat will open it's respective zone valve. When the zone valve opens it usually has and end switch inside the zone valve that makes contact to pull in a relay to start the circulator and probably the boiler.

ryanthevan

HVACNUT said:

When you raise the thermostats for the heat to come on, do the levers on the Zone valves move freely? They should.
Try to jump out TT in the aquastat where the Red and White low voltage wire are. Depending on the configuration of the aquastat, that should power the circulator, and the burner if its below limit temperature. 

If you get the meter and you're able to verify a bad circulator, you might be better off just replacing the cartridge. It's just 4, 5/16 screws rather than dealing with those nuts, bolts, and gaskets. Replace the O-ring also. You'll see when you separate the new circulator. 

You can easily isolate the boiler from the system. 

Shut off the power.

Shut off the Red valve on the right. Tighten the cap on the air vent on the left.

Close the gate valve (green circle). That valve looks a little cruddy too so if you want you can leave it and shut the 4 ball valves (purple).
I would try the gate valve and tighten it's packing nut and body if needed, otherwise you might have to purge.
Connect a 6 ft washer hose to the boiler drain. Get a 5 gallon bucket.

Disconnect the wiring to the circulator. 

Open the boiler drain and drop the boiler pressure to zero. As soon as water stops coming out of the hose, shut off the valve. 

Loosen the screws on the circulator cartridge and tap the motor to break it free. There will be some water but not under pressure. If water keeps backing up the return, you can open the boiler drain again to drop the level.

Remove old cartridge. Clean the area. New O-ring. New cartridge. Tighten evenly. 

Make sure boiler drain is closed.

Slowly open valve on right (supply) and loosen cap on the air vent.

Let the boiler fill.

When there's pressure on the boiler, open the return gate valve, and/or the ball valves. 

Wire the circulator. 

Turn power back on and check.

If the circulator now runs but the loops need to be purged, we'll jump off that bridge if we get to it.

If all zones heat fine, keep running them until the burner shuts off on limit. Then make sure the pressure is still good (approximately 12-15 psi) at limit.

Absolutely incredible. Cannot thank you enough. I will attempt all of this and report back. Fingers crossed.

ryanthevan

hot_rod said:

Probably cheaper to buy an entire pump. If it is 22 years old, replace the motor and cartridge

You can leave the body in place, remove the 4- 5/16 hex bolts and replace everything

Removing it at the flanges may be more of a task

The pump could be running and the system air locked. One step at a time

I purchased a replacement circ pump, same model. Hopefully the dimensions for the piping are the same after two decades. It comes with new gaskets. So I will try replacing the entire circ pump unit.

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

So, are you replacing the pump before you check it with a meter?

I really don't think it's the pump, but what do I know?

kcopp

It may be a stuck pump. A rap on it w/ a wrench while its running may get you going.... That being said that circ pump looks rough.

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

@rick in Alaska might be able to help if you get stuck.

rick in Alaska

$10.00 bucks says this is on Newell court in Homer. Unless I am missing the bigger picture, I installed this system a long time ago, and actually lived next door.
That being said, I have moved to Washington to be near family, so am no longer there.
I would make sure the cap on the round silver air vent on the top of the boiler is loose, to let air out, and then I would open the relief valve, which is the other crusty valve just above the pump, that drains in to the utility sink, and see if water comes out under pressure. If it doesn't, that would mean the pressure gauge is broken (likely) and you are at zero pressure, and the fill valve isn't working, (also likely), in which case the pump won't work. If you do open up the relief valve, you will probably have to rap the top of the valve to get it to close.
The other main thing is to make sure you are getting 120 volts to the pump. If not, then we need to know why. Did you check the levers as HVACNUT asked? Those levers should be able to move fully back and forth easily, with no restriction. If they don't, check the output voltage on the transformer, which is on the junction box on the wall to the right of the boiler, and make sure it has 24 volts.
I am going to say you are getting 120 volts to the pump, but it isn't working. They don't like to sit very long without running. But, you also need to verify pressure first before you condemn it.
If none of this works, you can call me and I can walk you through it.
Rick 907-399-61 00

mattmia2

Does the aquastat control the circulator? if there isn't water up there then the aquastat will never get hot.

EdTheHeaterMan

Of course @rick in Alaska would know the house that @ryanthevan lives in. How many people actually live in Alaska. Can't be that many!

Now with Rick in Washington State, There is one less there.

ryanthevan

Hey @rick in Alaska ! I can neither confirm nor deny my location but great guess and memory. AK is a small world. The help is much appreciated since service technicians are in very short supply these days.

I would make sure the cap on the round silver air vent on the top of the boiler is loose, to let air out

It seems like the airvent was closed/clogged. I applied a little pressure and when it turned a bit, some pressure was released, and now it seems to be bleeding/bubbling droplets of water slowly. I've turned the unit on to see if that works, but it definitely seems that it wasn't venting much air. Hopefully the water drips from the vent slow/stop at some point.



Update: I ran the boiler for a few minutes, the drips through the air vent persisted. The boiler cycled off at the temperature in the photo below. It doesn't seem like the circulator cycled on. I have closed the air vent for now to stop the drip, but imagine I will need to open it again.




and then I would open the relief valve, which is the other crusty valve just above the pump, that drains in to the utility sink, and see if water comes out under pressure. If it doesn't, that would mean the pressure gauge is broken (likely) and you are at zero pressure, and the fill valve isn't working, (also likely), in which case the pump won't work. If you do open up the relief valve, you will probably have to rap the top of the valve to get it to close.

Should I wait for the boiler/water temp to cool down before I do this? Or should I be releasing this valve with the unit on?

The other main thing is to make sure you are getting 120 volts to the pump. If not, then we need to know why.

I have to pick up a new voltmeter today and will check. Been busy processing a moose so haven't headed into town.

Did you check the levers as HVACNUT asked? Those levers should be able to move fully back and forth easily, with no restriction. If they don't, check the output voltage on the transformer, which is on the junction box on the wall to the right of the boiler, and make sure it has 24 volts.

These levers do not move freely when everything is on. When I move them all the way to the right, they "click" into a position. An off position maybe? But when i manually slide the levers to the right and left, there is resistance. You can feel/hear them scraping against the metal slotting.




I am going to say you are getting 120 volts to the pump, but it isn't working. They don't like to sit very long without running. But, you also need to verify pressure first before you condemn it.

I will verify pressure and voltage ASAP.

ryanthevan

kcopp said:

It may be a stuck pump. A rap on it w/ a wrench while its running may get you going.... That being said that circ pump looks rough.

I rapped it quite a bit, no success.

ryanthevan

mattmia2 said:

Does the aquastat control the circulator? if there isn't water up there then the aquastat will never get hot.

It does look like the aquastat is wired into the circulator and thermostats.

ryanthevan

@rick in Alaska

I have tried to open the relief valve, but cannot seem to get it to work. There is no resistance on the valve switch, at least until the bottom of it hits the metal mounting plate below it. Zero water releases out of the pipes into the sink.

ryanthevan

@HVACNUT

When you raise the thermostats for the heat to come on, do the levers on the Zone valves move freely? They should.

I am unfamiliar with these thermostats and could not find much on Youtube for explainers, but here's what I can tell you.

I can move both levers to the right and the left, but there is resistance. All the way to the right, the levers seem to "click" into a position. If I move them to the left, the levers meet some resistance, and if I keep pushing all the way to the left and let go, the levers revert back to the right on their own power, almost like im winding a clock.

hope that helps. I am unsure whether they are working properly.

HVACNUT

There should be zero resistance on the levers when the valves are open. You should be able to flick it back and forth with your finger.

So what your saying about resistance on the levers and clicking is strange. 

Try this. Turn off the thermostats. 
Get up to the zone valves as best you can and look at the track the levers are in. One side is notched so it can be locked open. Slide the lever and lock open one zone valve. 

Now jump out TT on the aquastat and see if the circulator starts.

BUT FIRST you need to check the aquastat settings. There are 3 buttons near the display. Use the button on the left to scroll through the settings. It'll show HL (High Limit) 180° or whatever it is. LL (Low Limit) ? That's what we need. What's the Low Limit setting? If it's off, ok for now. If there's a temperature setting for it, the circulator will not get power until the boiler reaches that temperature. 

ryanthevan

Here is a picture of the Honeywell aquastat that is installed. HL was set at 200°, LL at 5° (I can't seem to get the dial to go lower to 0°, although it does go higher no problem.

Checking out the electronic aquastat now.

ryanthevan

HVACNUT said:

There should be zero resistance on the levers when the valves are open. You should be able to flick it back and forth with your finger.

So what your saying about resistance on the levers and clicking is strange. 

Try this. Turn off the thermostats. 
Get up to the zone valves as best you can and look at the track the levers are in. One side is notched so it can be locked open. Slide the lever and lock open one zone valve. 

Now jump out TT on the aquastat and see if the circulator starts.

BUT FIRST you need to check the aquastat settings. There are 3 buttons near the display. Use the button on the left to scroll through the settings. It'll show HL (High Limit) 180° or whatever it is. LL (Low Limit) ? That's what we need. What's the Low Limit setting? If it's off, ok for now. If there's a temperature setting for it, the circulator will not get power until the boiler reaches that temperature. 

I checked the settings for the electronic aquastat.

HH set at 180° F. LL set at 140° F.

The boiler is currently at 153° F, and it reaches ~180° F before cycling down.

So it does seem as if the LL is reached.

ryanthevan

@HVACNUT

Try this. Turn off the thermostats.
Get up to the zone valves as best you can and look at the track the levers are in. One side is notched so it can be locked open. Slide the lever and lock open one zone valve.

I have turned the two thermostats inside the house to "off".

Does sliding it all the way to the right "lock open" the zone valve? I uploaded a video here that shows what is happening.

https://streamable.com/ov0e06

Now jump out TT on the aquastat and see if the circulator starts.

Not exactly sure what this means

HVACNUT

Aquastat 
Buttons
TT

ryanthevan

Quick update. I checked the 24v transformer with a multimeter per many of your recommendations, and it looks like there isn't any voltage there (the 120v feedin is fine and powering those loads).

I was able to source a replacement transformer in town and will wire it up today. Then hopefully those zone valves will be working (fingers crossed) and the circ pump will kick on.

mattmia2

Might want to start with a fuse or a 12v lamp in series with the new xfmr so if something is shorted that took out the old xfmr it doesn't blow the internal fuse in the new xfmr too.

ryanthevan

mattmia2 said:

Might want to start with a fuse or a 12v lamp in series with the new xfmr so if something is shorted that took out the old xfmr it doesn't blow the internal fuse in the new xfmr too.

I have a 12 AWG ATC/ATO Inline Fuse I could wire in. Would that go between the 120v connection and the transformer? Would a 5amp fuse work?

Thanks!

mattmia2

It would go in the 24vac side, something less than the rating of the transformer would be what you'd want. If the transformer doesn't have an external fuse or circuit breaker it usually has an internal fuse on the 24vac side that will blow if the controls short or in some cases stick that is not replaceable.

mattmia2

Some have an internal circuit breaker that resets when it cools too, might try unhooking it and waiting 20 minutes or so and see if it has 24vac with nothing connected.

Joe Mattiello

Looks like you plenty of support from all great technicians that are always eager to help someone in need. Lots of corrosion around that pump. Try the new 007e ECM alternative to PSC motor. If you still need help, contact Taco direct at 401-942-8000 and ask for tech support. 

ryanthevan

mattmia2 said:

Some have an internal circuit breaker that resets when it cools too, might try unhooking it and waiting 20 minutes or so and see if it has 24vac with nothing connected.

A slight embarrassing reversal. I didn't realize that the 24v transformer was AC. I had been testing on DC. It appears, after all, that the transformer and the valves may be all right. That circles back to the circ pump being the likely culprit.

I ran the boiler today. At 140 degrees (the aquatstat's LL setting) I heard a click and tested the voltage to the circ pump. (Got 125v AC on the multimeter. Before reaching LL, recieved a reading of 0v.)

And still the circ pump did not cycle on. I have a replacement on the way. Hopefully that will solve the issue.

ryanthevan

Joe Mattiello said:

Looks like you plenty of support from all great technicians that are always eager to help someone in need. Lots of corrosion around that pump. Try the new 007e ECM alternative to PSC motor. If you still need help, contact Taco direct at 401-942-8000 and ask for tech support. 

This looks like a pretty obvious upgrade for the extra $100.

Do you know if that dimensions/installation would be the same as the original version. It would be ideal to have it as a drop-in replacement. Thanks!

SteveSan

They are dimensionally the same, please see the link below for the submittal sheet for 007e.

https://www.tacocomfort.com/documents/FileLibrary/007e_ECM High-Efficiency Circulator_Submittal_101-177.pdf

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

To state the obvious, make sure you get the flanged connection, not the union connection.

ryanthevan

I was only able to get my hands on a 007 quickly, not the 007e unfortunately.

However, replacing the circ valve (very corroded from a small leak it turns out) and the relief valve did the trick.

Thanks for the help everyone!