What do I need to know re getting a new oil tank?

EdTheHeaterMan

Since you have not paid in full yet, you are at the advantage here. Use that.

As for the terms in writing. Pay nothing more until you have that.

Be fair. If the quoted price goes up a little for the temporary oil line, that's OK. Just as long as they don't go crazy about it. (but don't offer it, you might get it for free)

As far as getting sludge and tank bottom deposits in the fuel line, that is not a problem. Anything that gets debris in it can be flushed out, cleaned, filter cartridges and nozzles can be replaced, and it should all be included in the cost of the recent maintenance and the new tank. It sounds like you have a reliable fuel dealer and they should work with you on this.

Remember, after this is done they still want to sell you fuel, so they should work with you. Otherwise there are other oil dealers that will be happy to work with you. (you can remind them of this when you talk to them)

WMno57

Freedom said:

Should I have a written contract at this point? I have nothing. Owner told me the final total cost on the phone, only when I asked. I think I need to phone in to advise I am not going to allow returning the old oil to the new tank, I will use it from the standby tank. What else do I need to say / do now, and in what order?

Re the oil in your old tank: 250 gal tank. The top 230 are good and could be moved over. The bottom 20 are mixed with water, sludge, acid, and grit. You don't want to move the bottom 20 over. The burner on your boiler has a filter. It will catch anything that slips by.

Freedom

EdTheHeaterMan said:

Since you have not paid in full yet, . . . . Pay nothing more . . . .

I have not paid a cent as of yet.

Freedom

Re the oil in your old tank: 250 gal tank. The top 230 are good and could be moved over. The bottom 20 are mixed with water, sludge, acid, and grit. You don't want to move the bottom 20 over. The burner on your boiler has a filter. It will catch anything that slips by.



This is great, thank you. May as well keep using the old tank for now. Get as much as I can out of it.

WMno57

I thought they already pulled the top 230 out to relieve the pressure on the leak?

Freedom

WMno57 said:

I thought they already pulled the top 230 out to relieve the pressure on the leak?

Yes, that was done yesterday. My old tank is 225, so the amount is a bit off. But yes they siphoned into a standby tank yesterday.

EdTheHeaterMan

Technically, @WMno57 is correct. but Actually in practice, no human is perfect, and if the suction line slips just for a second, and sucks some stiff from the bottom of the temporary tank, the man who is doing the pumping is not going to let you know.

I have done this work for over 30 years. they don't send the 30+ year seasoned experienced technician to pump oil over from one tank to another. No matter how much you tell that kid, he is bound to make a mistake at some point. If that mistake happens at your home, then he may learn about his mistake with you future fuel system problem. Take it from a guy with with a few more tank installs that @WMno57 who has experience with only the one tank in his basement. By the way, I believe he has changed to to natural gas anyway.

@ChrisJ said You've had multiple professionals tell you flat out do not put any oil from the old tank in the new one. I don't recall any footnotes about it being ok for professionals.

Id heed their warning.

WMno57

Never had a tank in my basement, my home has always been NG during my ownership. I do have a tank in the back of my pickup for tractors and other off road equipment. That tank has its own filter and water separator.
Wonder how many oil company employees have red fuel from tank change outs in their personal trucks, boilers, and equipment? It's $1000 of fuel, it will get used somewhere by someone.

WMno57

Are you sure you are still running from the old tank and not the standby? You did say they did some drilling. Could that be for a line to the standby tank?

Freedom

WMno57 said:

Are you sure you are still running from the old tank and not the standby? You did say they did some drilling. Could that be for a line to the standby tank?

Definite, I am using the oil in the old tank at the moment. The drilling was actually a sawzall used to cut the vent pipe, they used that hole for the hose to siphon to the standby tank. That hole is currently stuffed with dishtowels, though I'm sure a mouse could get in if it wants to. I circled in red the one they cut off:

Freedom

Here we go. New tank install will happen tomorrow; the separate company that has to come to cut and haul away the old tank won't be here until Monday.

I asked about hooking up the standby tank rather than returning the oil to the new tank. He is not allowed to leave an unsecured tank outside like this. Can't be done. My options are either have this old oil in the standby tank pumped back into my new tank, OR let him haul it away.

HVACNUT

Also you, or a tech should be near the new tank while it's getting the first delivery. Somebody to check for leaks during the fill. A wrap with a screwdriver on the pipe will tell the driver to stop if there's a leak. 
Running the old tank, or temporary drum(s) dry and prepping the new tank to 95% is typical for a business that has the drums and the workforce. 
Even clients that had buried tanks and wanted to abate, we would install the new tank and oil line(s) and run a temporary oil line down the fill pipe of the buried tank so we could remove all the old oil lines. When the time comes to swap over, it's a half hour, tops.

Freedom

@HVACNUT not sure you read my latest post right above your comment.

HVACNUT

Freedom said:

Here we go. New tank install will happen tomorrow; the separate company that has to come to cut and haul away the old tank won't be here until Monday. I asked about hooking up the standby tank rather than returning the oil to the new tank. He is not allowed to leave an unsecured tank outside like this. Can't be done. My options are either have this old oil in the standby tank pumped back into my new tank, OR let him haul it away.

I call BS.

Freedom

Fine. What do I DO!

EBEBRATT-Ed

I would put the oil from the standby tank in the new tank if they filter it. It's what most people do regardless of what the mfg says.

HVACNUT

If they're basically forcing you into a pump over, have them make sure the pipe they use to put in the old tank to draw the oil out is no less than 4 inches from the bottom of the tank so it's less likely to pull sludge and water. They can haul away the rest. 
Then get something like this. Doesn't have to be from Sids. The big box stores should have something compatible. 

Freedom

I had a sleepless night.

I know the permit application went in. My City takes time, permit has not yet been issued. New tank goes in today. Do I care no permit? Is the City inspector supposed to come today? Or does he come Monday when the hazardous waste company cuts and removes the old tank? Both days?

I can think of a dozen questions.

The team is here. New problem.

In 2015, I had a highly respected company remove and replace the concrete driveway, front patio, and front walkway. Short straight driveway, 2.5 car lengths. They messed it up, made it 8 inches narrower, so when you step out of a vehicle, you are on the grass not the concrete. And SUV doesn't even FIT, the one side tires are on the grass.

They also raised the patio area. If you look at the pic of the fill and vent pipes, the concrete used to be lower by at least 4 inches. I have no clue why they raised it.




NOW the team says they will have to use a sledge hammer to remove concrete so that they can put in the new pipes. There is no way to get a pipe wrench in and turn to install the "L" with the concrete this high.

We discussed putting the new pipes on the front of the house. Due to water faucet, it would be in about 6 feet from the corner. Behind shrubbery. Not easy to access for fills, and no way I can shovel snow out of there for fills. So the patio has to be hit.

Look at another photo. The stand by tank is right where they need to work to put in the new pipes.

WMno57

Freedom said:

Straight short driveway, just 2.5 car lengths. And still, they messed it up. Made it so narrow an SUV has to have tires on one side on the grass. You exit a vehicle onto the grass not concrete. It was not this way before.

Since you mentioned it, I have a possible solution for you on the driveway. A border of brick pavers. You could make it about two feet wide. That way, when you exit a vehicle, you are standing on pavers instead of muddy grass. You can DIY it, or hire some landscapers. The big box stores all have a good selection of pavers, everything from brick size to 20' x 20" squares. You could save money and maybe annoy the town and neighbors less by just doing a short section by the vehicle's door.
Hopefully the Oil company will figure out solutions to all the issues that pop up along the way. It sounds like they have been doing this a long time. Experience counts in these cases. I think you are in good hands.

ChrisJ

They put the temporary tank over / in front of the location they were expecting to install new fill / vent piping?


That can't be right.

Stupid unforeseen problems always come up on jobs like this, it just does. But that's a bit much.

Freedom

WMno57 said:

Hopefully the Oil company will figure out solutions to all the issues that pop up along the way. It sounds like they have been doing this a long time. Experience counts in these cases. I think you are in good hands.

I REALLY needed to hear this. Because already 1 guy on the Team said he can just leave if I don't trust him to do his job, which he has been doing for 12 years.

Re pavers, this was discussed as a 'fix,' at the time. The guy who plows snow for me begged me not to , said it will chew up his plow. In fact, he said he would drop me as a customer and let someone else deal with it.

@ChrisJ I know, right? They really expected to put the new pipes behind the shrubs. Drill new holes in the foundation - 67 year old concrete blocks. I have visions of the blocks disintegrating.

I explained my thinking: "an awkward job for you for one day, is better than an awkward job for the delivery guys every single delivery for the next 50 years. " The man is not happy about it, but he understands what I mean.

Freedom

New tank is in, that part of the job is done. Hazardous waste company comes Monday to remove the old oil tank which is still in the cellar.

New tank


New tank with table and dryer back in place; I need to find someone to build shelves for my laundry soap.


New fill pipe and vent pipe outside. You can see the 'gully" they had to dig, in the patio concrete. I asked if I have to do anything to prevent ice build up, or does it not matter. They have no idea as they have never done something like this before.


If anyone has thoughts re that area, let me know.
Thanks for all the info the past few days. I'm only sorry I was not able to follow more of the ideas made on here. Partly due to this being an emergency situation, partly due to this being an old 1956 house with not many options for the newer tanks.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Looks good to me. The vent and fill pipes needed to be raised anyhow. Looks like they pitched the tank, the filter and firomatic valve are there

The only mistake I see is that the vent pipe is supposed to be higher than the fill pipe (I am looking at the outside of the building). Looks like the fill is higher than the vent pipe to me. Have them raise the vent pipe up.

I am curious if the inspector will catch this. he should

Freedom

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

Looks good to me. The vent and fill pipes needed to be raised anyhow. Looks like they pitched the tank, the filter and firomatic valve are there

The only mistake I see is that the vent pipe is supposed to be higher than the fill pipe (I am looking at the outside of the building). Looks like the fill is higher than the vent pipe to me. Have them raise the vent pipe up.

I am curious if the inspector will catch this. he should

Got it, thanks. You can SEE the firomatic valve? GOOD, this means I do not know what it is. I thought this was what you were talking about:


Thanks for all your input Ed.

I'm not sure if / when the inspector will be out. I did ask the team here today, they said sometimes he never gets out. I have an open permit from last February that is still active, for some new replacement windows. (Obviously not the safety issue that oil tanks present, which may be why he has not been out here. If he can't do everything, he would do the high risk stuff.)

Oh hey . . . I take hundreds of photos. You mean this red piece they put on the tank? THAT is the firomatic valve?

EdTheHeaterMan

What is the chance of getting someone to paint that tank. it appears to be the 10 year warranty tank with a primer coat only. You may also want to get some Paint for thew fill and vent pipe that is outside. Maybe the color of the siding. Keep the left over paint so you can use it every 3 years or so. That pipe will be a rusty mess in 10 years if you don't.

Other than that, it looks like a good job.

Freedom

I don't have any paperwork yet re the tank. On the phone, the Owner told me the tank has a 3 year warranty. Can I just paint it with any paint that is for metal, or do I need some particular paint? Won't be able to reach the 2 sides by the wall, it is too close. Rustoleum spray paint work for this?

Once the vent pipe is raised, I do have paint to match the siding, and I will use that. I had painted the old pipes. I also painted the outdoor faucets; mistake, wasn't able to get the tap off when a washer went, had to change the whole darn faucet. And I have painted the fence posts that color, too. So yes, I have that paint.

When the new tank was outside I took a photo of the label on it but it does not specify what you are discussing.

Freedom

And from that photo I found the SKU on the Granby website:

Says it has paint, do I still need to paint the tank?

And 3 year warranty:

EdTheHeaterMan

This is the manufacturer's information about your tank. It appears that Granby has changed their warranty on your tank from 10 years to 3 years for tanks that were manufactured after February 2023. This is news to me. https://www.granbyindustries.com/en-us/petroleum-tanks/products/standard/. This page says 10 year warranty...
But there is a new page that was added recently.
https://www.granbyindustries.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/granby-3-year-usa-warranty-standard-residential-12ga-tank-installed-after-feb-1st-2023.pdf

You might want to tale a screen shot of the 10 year warranty page and keep it with you receipt for the new tank

Freedom

Hahahaa, yes @EdTheHeaterMan , I had posted all those photos, just above!

Do I still need to paint the tank, with the powder coat on it?

EdTheHeaterMan

Print and save this page with your receipt for the tank.

And save this page with your receipt for the tank https://www.granbyindustries.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/granby-10-year-usa-warranty-standard-residential-12ga-tank-installed-after-august-01-2007.pdf

It can't hurt to save this if you need it in 8 years.

Any paint that has rust inhibiter in it ... Like Rust-Oleum or any other brand with the same properties is good for painting the tank. You can't put too much paint on the bottom of the tank.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@Freedom

In one of your pictures, you show a red Firomatic switch (known as a thermal cut off) it is an electrical switch mounted on the ceiling above the boiler to shut the boiler off on high temperature or a fire. They trip at 165 degrees if I remember right.

The firomatic oil valves are installed at the burner and at the oil tank between the oil filter and the tank. In case of fire the handle melts at 165 deg and the valves are spring loaded to shut off if the handle melts. I can see you have one on the new tank by the filter. You should have one at the burner as well

The red fitting on top of the tank is a Scully tank whistle otherwise known as a "vent alarm". When the driver fills the tank air going through the vent line makes the alarm whistle. There is a dip tube attached to the vent alarm which sticks into the tank a few inches. When the tank is full up to the dip tube the whistle stops, and the driver shuts of his fill hose knowing that the tank is full. That is why after a delivery you tank may not be completely full. It leaves some air space for expansion and contraction of the fuel due to temperature changes.

HVACNUT

I didn't know you could bush down to 1.25" for the fill. 

The tank looks correctly pitched towards the outlet. Not crazy about the legs, especially on a short tank. I use 1.25", 4 bolt flanges threaded to the legs for a better footprint.

Freedom

HVACNUT said:

I didn't know you could bush down to 1.25" for the fill.

Where are you seeing this? Outside, inside, where??

ChrisJ

Freedom said:

HVACNUT said:

I didn't know you could bush down to 1.25" for the fill.

Where are you seeing this? Outside, inside, where??

The entire black pipe from outside to the tank where they fill the tank.
I don't know what's required at all, so my input is irrelevant.

HVACNUT

ChrisJ said:

I didn't know you could bush down to 1.25" for the fill.

Where are you seeing this? Outside, inside, where??

The entire black pipe from outside to the tank where they fill the tank. I don't know what's required at all, so my input is irrelevant.

At the tank, the vent alarm is 2 inch into the tank x 1.25 black pipe for the vent. The fill looks like it has a 2 x 1.25 bushing. Maybe it's to code. I'm not sure.

Freedom

@HVACNUT In other words, I need to make sure I have the inspector check all this out, so I can feel confident with it. Thank you. If he does not say anything, I will specifically ask about this, and about the vent height mentioned already.

EBEBRATT-Ed

The code now requires the same size for the fill and vent. They can be 1 1/4. 1 1/2 or 2" but they both have to be the same size. Of course everyone uses 1 1/4 cause its cheaper. You do get some foam in the tank.

Years ago at least in MA the minimum vent was 1 1/4" and the fill was supposed to be 2" (although many used 1 1/2" and because the OD of 1 1/2 is about 2" the fire dept inspectors didn't know the difference)

Also the vent has to have a 2" clearance from a window or door or any building opening that can be opened. A fixed window doesn't count.

Also, i looked it up and I could not find where the vent needs to be higher than the fill pipe but that is the way its supposed to be.

ChrisJ

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

The code now requires the same size for the fill and vent. They can be 1 1/4. 1 1/2 or 2" but they both have to be the same size. Of course everyone uses 1 1/4 cause its cheaper. You do get some foam in the tank.

Years ago at least in MA the minimum vent was 1 1/4" and the fill was supposed to be 2" (although many used 1 1/2" and because the OD of 1 1/2 is about 2" the fire dept inspectors didn't know the difference)

Also the vent has to have a 2" clearance from a window or door or any building opening that can be opened. A fixed window doesn't count.

Also, i looked it up and I could not find where the vent needs to be higher than the fill pipe but that is the way its supposed to be.

What would the benefit of the vent being higher than the fill pipe be?
If it's not written in code, why do you think that's how it's supposed to be? I think my vent was the same height.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@ChrisJ

MA used to write its own oil burner code for about90 years or so but about 12 years ago they scrapped it and adopted NFPA. Ma used to specify that the vent had to be higher than the fill.

The reason is (or was) that when filling the tank it would back up at the fill connection before it came out the vent if the vent was higher. Now with Scully fast fills this is probably a moot point.

Maybe this was a holdover from the old days when a lot of old tanks (especially underground tanks) never had vent alarm whistles installed.

I was surprised when I took a quick look in NFPA this morning and didn't see anything on vent height.

MikeAmann

I purposely put my vent right at the height of the ear of the person doing the filling.