No hot water / mixing valve replaced

karen_no_man_needed

OK I’m hoping someone can help me. I was trying to post this to another discussion but it’s too old to post to i think. I attached the screenshot of that discussion. I’m having the same kind of problem. I’ve done all the things talked about in that discussion. 

I have a problem with not getting hot water to my faucets or my shower, because of a possible bad mixing valve?
Although I’ve already replaced that. It’s a Watts L70A. 

1). So, first of all, I had a pinhole leak where the hot water comes out of the furnace on the bend in the pipe, soldered that out and replaced it. 

2). Then I had no hot water.
3). I had a plumber come and he changed the mixing valve, still not working. 

Here’s  what I did for troubleshooting already:

1). The pipe coming out of the furnace is hot, hot hot when it gets to the bend (that was placed) sometimes is very hot before it gets to the mixing valve, & Sometimes it’s almost cold (see the picture).

2). It gets to the mixing valve and then the pipe going from the mixing valve to my faucets is usually cold. Sometimes I can get it hot. Here’s an example; 

(I’m getting hot water when I tricked it at the faucets, after a little bit the furnace will kick on, but if I turn the flow up higher at the faucet, It goes back to cold).
 

so at that point when I “trickle the water”, the pipe coming out of the mixing valve, and the entire pipe coming out of the furnace are hot. 

But when I “turn the flow up” the pipe after the mixing valve and the lower portion of the pipe coming out of the furnace go back to cold”ish”and the furnace shuts back down. Water at the faucet turns to cold.

I played around with it for hours tonight. I’m hoping somebody has some other  ideas for me. I saw the ideas about corrosion & hard water (I have a well).

So, as far as the furnace goes I’m getting hot out of the furnace (temp is 180 at the furnace, & 140 at the mixing valve, which is all the way up). 

Then there’s the bend in the pipe, that was just replaced (a short little pipe) that goes into the mixing valve. Sometimes that lower portion of the pipe is warm at best. That’s all before the mixing valve. Then like I said after the mixing valve going up to my faucets, sometimes that’s warm sometimes cold. 

 

Please help, not looking forward to a third cold shower!! 😳
Thank you so much!! Karen 

karen_no_man_needed

Erin Holohan Haskell

@karen_no_man_needed, welcome to Heating Help! I've added your comment from that older discussion into your new post so that we don't have two discussions running on the same subject. Thanks!

karen_no_man_needed

Thank you so much I was really lame about posting. I couldn’t figure it out. 🙂
Although, I think it’s still doubled? 🤷🏼‍♀️

Jamie Hall

When something was working, sort of, and then something was done and now things don't work... the first place to look is at what was done.

In this case, try this: turn off the cold water line to the mixing valve. I hope there is a shutoff for that (edit -- I think I see a ball valve on that line. Good)((oh wait. Does the hot water coil also feed off that line? You may have to get creative...)? And then see if you get hot water flow. If you do there's no block in your new little elbow pipe -- which isn't likely, but one might as well find out. If there's no flow, or very weak, then either the mixing valve is stuck or there's a block in the elbow pipe going to it (I'm assuming here that you get adequate flow out of the hot water faucets -- just that it's cold?). Try adjusting the mixing valve adjustment. It should turn pretty freely (well, not spinning, but I dare say you know what I mean). Anything change? Also try giving it a whack. Don't be a gorilla, but don't be gentle either.

If you're handy with a torch, which it seems you are, it might be easier -- and quicker -- to disassemble the thing, put some temporary caps on as needed, and make sure you have flow through the boiler coil and the elbow -- and install a new mixing valve...

STEVEusaPA

Interesting screen name...Except for Erin...it's all men responding to your post.

dko

I wouldn't be surprised if the coupling after the first 90 had a blob of solder sitting in the middle restricting 95% of the flow. That's quite a lot of overflow solder on the fittings..

karen_no_man_needed

@STEVEusaPA, agreed sorry for that. Lol  I am mostly independent. 
Spent 25 years in an industry mostly run by men, ( I like to think I rock that position 🤓)
although I do need help once in a while, 14 yrs single/divorced, & since my dad passed away, I find myself reaching out for help more and more.

 I realize that after I made it I thought about changing it didn’t wanna screw up my post. 😊 i do absolutely appreciate all the help!! I’ll see if I can change that 😉.
____________________________

Ok, back to business…

@Jamie Hall  OK so first things first, I do get plenty of flow from both Hot and cold lines. At the tap. I also get hot water through that pipe after the bend. I just thought it odd that sometimes below the bend is not as hot as above the bend. (Keep in mind this is the first time I’ve ever done anything like this any type of plumbing as far as on my furnace, so I don’t know how it was previously to this).

Yes, I do get adequate flow and that it’s just cold. I find it odd that I get hot water at a trickle but as soon as I turn it up any higher than a trickle, it goes right back to completely cold at the faucet and at the pipe after the mixing valve. 
As far as the valve, I’ve taken it out clean it all up put it back together twice, doesn’t seem to be stuck, I did all the things that you said no whacking it turning it it turns with some pressure not a lot not too little, seems appropriate. 

I also forgot to mention that I bought a new one it didn’t work, so that’s when I decided to clean up my old one and put it back in thinking that the one I bought was faulty. I watched a bunch of videos on how to clean it up. I think I did a pretty good job of making sure that it was working properly inside. 

So this is what I’ve come to think after all of the research I’ve done through the night. 

This is what I want to ask before I take it all apart possibly ruin my furnace, 😬
So below mixing valve as you can see if you zoom in, the pipe is corroded, it is leaking a tiny tiny bit randomly. I’ve seen a couple of comments about that being an issue possibly. Wondering what you think on that? 

Whats odd is none of this happened until I repaired that leak in the elbow. So I was wondering, was it flowing so heavy through that elbow that created that hole, where there might be something wrong before that? 

Or did me changing that pipe screw the flow & temperature up? (As you probably can guess, I have forced hot water, baseboard heat, 4 zones).
I also have a well, i’m thinking, maybe the hard water is causing some thing? 
Do you think it could be the corrosion or calcium lime deposits, buildup? 
See the couple screenshots of things that  I looked up. I’m thinking maybe this?

Thank you for your help I’m learning a lot today!!!

  

karen_no_man_needed

@dko Good point!! I’m a newbie I’ve never touched my furnace ever! However, I had shark bites on it originally, but the piece I had was not long enough, every time I cut it, I kept making it worse. So, I ended up getting another elbow pc and i just soldered that in. I may have been a bit messy about it, I didn’t think I was but I could’ve been. (I just recently learned how to take the shark bites off. That’s why I ended up just soldering the new one in, I didn’t wanna go back to get more parts). 

karen_no_man_needed

@Jamie Hall I also don’t know if the hot water coil feeds off that line I actually don’t know how that works. But, I can go look it up now I didn’t get that far into it. Im not quite sure. 🤨

Larry Weingarten

Hi @karen_no_man_needed , A couple of thoughts came to mind reading through your post. There might be a chance air is still in the hot water coil. The possible clue is the cooling of the pipe at the 90 turning down. The other thing that @Jamie Hall mentioned is having a ball valve on the cold feed to the mixing valve. Having that valve would make it easier to flush the coil and it would allow you to see if you can get steady hot water from the coil when that new valve is closed. If then you do get steady hot at taps, you know the problem is in the valve. If you don't, (and water coning from the coil is hot) you know there is a crossover somewhere out in the plumbing. Is that all making sense?

Yours, Larry

karen_no_man_needed

@Larry Weingarten  Can you tell me exactly where the coil is? Which shut off are you talking about? Is the ball valve the one at the bottom of the pipe before the mixing valve, the one that I opened up to let the water out? 

Yes, I am a bit confused… however, I am determined to fix this myself. Thanks so much!

Erin Holohan Haskell

karen_no_man_needed said:

Thank you so much I was really lame about posting. I couldn’t figure it out. 🙂
Although, I think it’s still doubled? 🤷🏼‍♀️

Good catch, @karen_no_man_needed. I fixed it. Thanks!

Let me know if you have any questions about using the forum. It seems like you've got it, though!

karen_no_man_needed

@Erin Holohan Haskell
Thank you so much. Yes, I have figured it out. I’m getting lots of good answers. Thank you so much!! 

karen_no_man_needed

I just found a YouTube video that I’m starting to watch, there’s a tech going into a house that’s going to fix the exact issue. Set up looks very similar to mine. I’m going to take your tips and see what he has to say. I’m excited maybe I can fix this on my own, today!! I’ll still keep taking comments, I need all your help! 🤓

Larry Weingarten

Hi, What I'm calling the coil is part of the boiler, behind the round black steel plate that's bolted in place. About adding a valve, looking at the photo... ... the right place for a valve would be just under the valve and above the copper "T". With a valve there, you could know for sure that cold flow into the mixing valve was stopped, and flow through the coil was good, so the possible problems can be isolated. Long ago, I did a lot of work with those mixing valves which didn't like the hard water in my area. I needed to put shutoffs in the cold supply to simplify diagnosis and servicing of the mixing valves. The problem was often the thermally actuated part of the valve would get stuck in the extended position, which could be tested by squeezing it back together.

Yours, Larry

karen_no_man_needed

@Larry Weingarten I took the valve apart and cleaned it all up, made sure the piston and the plunger part were all moving freely, should I re-check that? Is there a way that I can find out about the cold water flow easily without changing too much more? I understand what you’re saying, but it sounds like something beyond what I can do? How hard do you think that is?

Did

EBEBRATT-Ed

@karen_no_man_needed

My first question is did you get what you considered adequate hot water before these changes? Tankless coils are not great at providing hot water but if it worked before it should work again.

the most common problem is the mixing valve which you have addressed or muck on the coil inside the boiler but that (the muck ) doesnt usually cause a sudden problem but a decrease in hw temp over time.

Could something be blocking one of the pipes going to the tankless coil? Possible but not likely.

I would also look for a cross connection between the hot and cold water pipes somewhere? possible.

You could have a defective shower valve . It could also be crossing over at the washing machine. Try shutting off bot washing machine hoses and see if that is the culprit

Larry Weingarten

Hi @karen_no_man_needed , I like what @EBEBRATT-Ed said. Good questions and tests! A trick you could use to test things is to remove the piston assembly and put the cap back on the mixing valve. This way, there is nothing that should open and mix cold water in. This is just a test, and with the heat your boiler is producing would be unsafe to leave that way long term. It should help accomplish much of what I wanted to do without having to add that ball valve under the mixing valve.

Yours, Larry

karen_no_man_needed

@EBEBRATT-Ed, thank you for your comment. 

Yes, we had adequate hot water before the repair. Once i repaired the bend in the pipe, I had no hot water at the tap,  any taps.

 Like I said, put a new mixing valve in & it didn’t fix the problem, pulled it out, cleaned up the old one, put the old one back in thinking maybe the new one was faulty, still no hot water only in the trickle that I explained, at any tap, including shower, sinks everything.

 I have a sink next to my washing machine. There was also the same amount of hot water at a trickle. I could try shutting the water off to the washing machine. What are you thinking of doing after shut those off? 

I’m assuming it’s gotta be something to do with the repair  in the pipe  or corrosion build up? 

 Those are the two things I’m thinking of right now. The company that services my furnace wants to charge me $200 for a brand new mixing valve (part alone)  which I already know it’s not the issue. I hesitate to call them out here. For a possible $400-500, repair for something I know is not the problem. What do you think?

karen_no_man_needed

@Larry Weingarten
would you be surprised if I told you I already tried that? I did try that. I got the same result  with the piston out, as with the piston in.

karen_no_man_needed

The plumber thinks if we swap out the mixing valve for a tempering valve it will fix it. However, I do not agree with him. What are your thoughts? 

He looked at me like I was crazy when I told him all of the troubleshooting that I’ve done and for how far I’ve come learning it online. I think he was surprised by how much knowledge I had of it. And I was able to do all the things that I’ve done thus far. He doesn’t seem to think I can do it. Perfect example of someone thinking I can’t do it because because of this or that. It makes me more determined to fix it by myself.

 If anyone else has any ideas, not yet suggest, I would love to hear it!!

at this point, I’m leaning more toward the coil, and/or changing the corroded pipe.

right now I’m gonna go try some of your suggestions and see how far I get. wish me luck 🤞🏻

Jamie Hall

Never think you can't do something until you try. We all started not knowing much!

One thing I've always found helpful is to stop and think through just how the water -- in this case -- gets heated in the first place, and how it flows from there to where you ultimately use it -- and then think about what might go wrong on the way. You'll get there.

Larry Weingarten

Hi, A thought about soldering. The rule of thumb I've heard is that a joint should need about as much solder as it takes to make one wrap around the pipe. If that's about how much was used, good. If half a pound of solder was used, well that's a bit much and could be clogging things up.

Also, can you figure a way to flow water through the boiler's coil? That would be a good indicator of whether it's seriously limed up or not.

Yours, Larry

hot_rod

You may need to disconnect some piping and see if the coil in the boiler flows without any valves attached

If you replace that tempering valve the Caleffi 520 AngleMix works great with tankless coils

karen_no_man_needed

It’s a coil, everyone! Ugh!!!

karen_no_man_needed

I replaced the mixing valve with a tempering valve, cut out the piping below with all the corrosion, attached the new  tempering valve. No difference. It’s absolutely the coil. 

I don’t think that is something I can do myself, it’s a bigger job than I can handle. I love to do it myself, but I don’t think I can without somebody walking me through it.

@Larry Weingarten Thank you for the tips on soldering. I was super careful about it. There was no blockage there, looked in it with a flashlight, I was able to see through pretty much. I soldering pretty on point I think when I was in high school in shortly after I worked at a company called “whelen” they make flashing lights etc for emergency vehicles. I did a lot of soldering in my day. Lol 
@Jamie Hall  
@hot_rod  
@EBEBRATT-Ed
@dko
Thank you for the advice, all of the advice!! 

You all empowered me I appreciate that! 

Larry Weingarten

Hi @karen_no_man_needed , Here's a thought. There is a fun little device called a compression coupling. Here's a link: https://www.ebay.com/itm/123120015162?campid=5338967984&mkevt=1&mkcid=1&toolid=10050&customid=&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&_trkparms=ispr=1&amdata=enc:1FBoO0yKnTzeGspdRI2sxAQ64&campid=5338969496&mkevt=1&mkcid=1&toolid=10050&customid=d97fda6941fa1f217a9abe868365478b&mkrid=710-53481-19255-0. and here's a photo of it:

A benefit of this is that you can cut copper pipe, then use this as a way to join the pipe back together, and as a union, should you need access in future. It also doesn't care if things are damp when you work on it. If there is enough play in the lines, you could get access to the coil this way. I like having choices when dealing with things. This gives you another do-it-yourself choice.

Yours, Larry

Mad Dog_2

Just be careful Karen.  I always install a Thermometer on the outlet of Domestic Hot water coils.  There is always a danger of scalding, especially with older Mixing valves like that one.  If the plumber is redoing it, have him install one on the outlet out of the mixing valve.  If not, you can buy strap on ones...better than nothing.   You don't want more than 140 degrees at a Sink or washing machine. 120 in a Shower or tub.  85-110 for the elderly or handicapped.  Mad Dog 🐕 

karen_no_man_needed

What do you think? 😁
Old vs. new, now, the hard part lol!!

karen_no_man_needed

@Mad Dog_2
&
@Larry Weingarten

thank you for your comments I’m gonna read them and reply to you in just a minute time to cook dinner long day!! ☺️

EBEBRATT-Ed

Probably a dumb question at this point but is the mixing valve piped right?

cold-cold on the mixing valve and cold to the coil

hot from the tankless to hot on th mixing valve

mixed on the mixing valve is the hot outlet to the fixtures

EBEBRATT-Ed

@Larry Weingarten

I was always told 1/2" copper 1/2" of solder

3/4" 3/4" of solder etc etc

I was known to use a pond of solder /joint in my younger days LOL

karen_no_man_needed

@EBEBRATT-Ed
I had my uncle working with me because I could not do that completely on my own. I’m not happy with all the bends. I asked him the same question when we were doing it. His answer was because the valve is upside down.  I wasn’t really satisfied with that answer. I’m glad you noticed. I forgot to ask that question above. 🤓

Larry Weingarten

Hi, I guess the big question is "Do you now have good hot water? "

Yours, Larry

ps, And the yellow handled shut-off is throttled down. Because ???

karen_no_man_needed

@Larry Weingarten
I wish I had just done it on my own to be honest with you. I’m so discouraged.

No, we do not have hot water and the more I think about it and the more I look at it it’s just awful and it’s not all the way on because it’s scalding hot the first 15 seconds and then it’s cold. I’m actually very unhappy the more I look at it and the more I look at it… it’s got so many bends I’ve got terrible pressure. I wanna rip it apart and fix it. Ugh I don’t really know what to do.
isn’t there a way I can do that without all of that necessary piping? 

karen_no_man_needed

@EBEBRATT-Ed
That’s exactly what I was saying can you suggest how  I can do that back to the way I used to have it with this type of valve?
I keep going over and over and over it in my head and I don’t know how to make the connections work now because the valve is so different than the one I had

Larry Weingarten

Hi, True it isn't pretty, but fortunately, the long 90 degree bends create very little pressure drop at normal flows. One advantage of what you have now is the unions at the mixing valve. Maybe these could give you access, so that flushing the coil with a delimer becomes a possibility.

Yours, Larry

hot_rod

I would get a kit like this and run it for a few hours. It sounds like a plugged coil now

Send me you address and I’ll mail two  adapters to put into the mix valve unions

Its a 10 minute job to hook up the cleaner kit

What do you have to lose?

Intplm.

@karen_no_man_needed
Sorry for your troubles. This is a BIG "P.I.A". ! I know.

From here and from the above picture, it looks like it is properly piped. But that cold water half-inch ball valve is not open all of the way. Open it.

Does that ball valve feel like it's broken? Is the handle moving the internals of the valve? This could be part of the problem.

Hopefully, you won't need that cleaner kit that @hot_rod has shown above. It's a good idea but they can cause the coil, if older to pinhole leak. And that means replacing the coil and that is another P.I.A.

At this point look to see if the ball valve is good.....and look at the new mixing valve. Some come supplied with check valves built in. Look to see if they are not hung up in some way that might be causing this.

Hope this helps.

MikeAmann

If that new mixing valve were rotated 90 degrees clockwise, about half a dozen elbows could have been eliminated.
And I am also leaning towards your tankless coil being the problem.