Oil furnace and oil tank replacement

Stack316

Hi I am at 25 years with my oil tank and peerless boiler with tankless water. 2 zones furnished basement and 1 floor in a raised ranch In Massachusetts, no chimney direct vent only. No gas on street. 1600 sq ft living space with hot water baseboard. Family complains not enough hot water for a bath.
Oil tank has a small leak
Getting quotes now

thoughts on this suggestion for the new boiler
Anything missing, any thoughts
He did say a system 2000 would be 20-30% more expensive and I would need another vent for fresh air from the outside and additional plumbing ( but did not give me a quote) maybe the next company will
(I do have another company providing their thoughts in the coming day)

(Oil tank replacement is not included in this write up)

• Removal of existing oil fired boiler.
• Installation of a Peerless WBV-E-04 oil fired hot water boiler with a Carlin oil burner.
• Installation of two Taco zone control valves for the two zones of heating in your home.
• Installation of a new boiler water feed valve and backflow preventer.
• Installation of a new thermal expansion tank and air elimination device.
• Installation of a Heat-Flo HF-40 40 Gallon indirect water heater.
• Installation of a Field Control SWG-4 Power Venter and control.
• Installation of a metal flue pipe from the boiler to the new power venter.
• We will connect the new boiler piping to your existing heat zones piping.
• We will connect the new boiler to your existing domestic water piping.
• We will alter and or add piping to accommodate the installation and adjustment to new codes.
• We will connect the oil burner to your existing code approved oil supply line.
• oil company I use will obtain all needed permits from the Town for the completion of the installation.
• All electrical and control connections will be completed by a licensed electrician.
• This installation will be completed per manufacturer’s recommendations and will comply with all applicable state and local codes.
• Complete removal of all trash and debris related to this installation.
• Proper disposal of old equipment.

Steamhead

Does your house have natural gas available?

ethicalpaul

No gas on street.

Stack316

Town Water quality to consider

random12345

Fellow MA homeowner here. Hot water boilers can last 35 years. I wouldn't replace unless it's leaking. What model do you have now? When you say tankless water do you mean tankless coil? Since you don't have gas available, I'm guessing you're in central or western MA. It then makes sense to replace the oil tank immediately. Any spill over 10 gallons and if MA DEP hears about it, you could be in trouble. Might want to consider getting an oil spill tray/tub before they install the new tank for extra peace of mind. Heating oil spill rider can be added to your existing home insurance policy for around $70/yr usually. I would go with a standard 275 Granby. I treat with Fuel Right to prevent corrosion. The hot water is a separate issue. An indirect water heater would be my first thought for that. Consider adding outdoor reset if you don't have it already. Added benefit should be a lower fuel bill.

Stack316

I am SE mass near Brockton, yes tankless coil which it was replaced 8 years ago, but cannot handle our needs. I’ll post some pictures when I am home tonight. Every year during the annual cleaning something needs to be replaced on the boiler. So i am confident it is time for a complete system.

The oil tank is the the priority and after tomorrows 2 quotes. I will make my decision and will have it replaced within a week or 2.

Steamhead

ethicalpaul said:

No gas on street.

Any chance gas might come to that street soon? If so, OP should choose a boiler that can easily be converted.

random12345

@Stack316 Check with Eversource and National Grid if you haven't already. They might tell you that a new gas line is in the works.
https://nationalgridus.com/MA-Gas-Home/Natural-Gas-Service/Connect-to-Natural-Gas
https://eversource.com/YG/Availability/default.aspx?comp=ma

Robert O'Brien

I question the sizing of boiler, probably way too big. There is a $600 Federal tax credit on Energy Star boilers with a B20 rated burner, they all should be B20 rated but confirm

HVACNUT

Would running 2 inch PVC for combustion air for the System 2000 be a problem? In a finished basement, there should probably be combustion air brought in regardless.
 
The EK-1 Frontier (System 2000) with their water heater is what I would do if it were mine. If I didn't have a chimney, I'd look at the EK Resolute. A little more efficient and already has the fan for sidewall venting.

If you go with the Peerless, You only need the 3 section, which has a net rating of 110K BTU's which comes to 68.75 BTU's per sq ft, which is probably close to triple what the house needs. So forget about the 4 section. And with sidewall venting, I'd go with a BF Riello over the Carlin. Mostly because it requires outside combustion air. I'm not sure if Carlin offers an enclosure for the EZ1 to bring in outside combustion air. 

Are they proposing a zone valve for the water heater too? Are they providing a zone valve control panel? They should. 

Stack316

Good info Ty
National grid said no to adding gas to my street

No mention of a valve for the water heater in the proposal

The peerless, he said, did not need outside air.

I have checked out the rebates from masssave for oil. Wish there was more!

Must current system attached

Stack316

More pics

STEVEusaPA

Get a double wall tank.
If you replace the boiler, get a company familiar with EK (direct line to a rep), and put in one of the EK's that'll give you the best efficiency, better than nat gas, can be set up for nearly unlimited hot water, runs quiet.

Stack316

Double wall was never mentioned, her is the tank proposal…,
Removal of existing oil from storage tank.
• Removal of existing oil storage tank.
• Installation of a 275 Gallon steel fuel oil storage tank.
• Installation of fuel level gauge and vent alarm.
• We will connect to your existing fill and vent piping.
• We will adjust piping to accommodate current code.
• We will connect the new tank to your existing oil line.
• Refill tank with the oil removed.
• Appropriate permits from the Town
• This installation will be completed per manufacturer’s recommendations and will comply with all applicable state and local codes.
• Complete removal of all trash and debris related to this installation.
• Proper disposal of old tank.

random12345

I still see no reason to replace the boiler. It could last another 10 years. A steam boiler ok, but hot water tends to last longer. You're going to have to spend a couple hundred a year anyway for the annual maintenance. Even if you have to add a few thousand on top of that over 5-10 years, and I don't know why you would have to either, still cheaper to hold onto it. The money you save now can be invested for an additional 10 years of compound interest potentially. If it were in its early 30s, I would understand wanting to replace now. We've got a couple of Weil-Mclain oil boilers 22 years old each. Still running no problem. Double wall Roth tanks are more expensive. Not sure it's worth the expense. Add Fuel Right to the new tank immediately to prevent the microorganisms/contaminants in the old oil from sticking to the walls of the new tank and corroding it too.

Stack316

For those thinking I can get more life 5+ yrs, with struggles with hot water, No running sink while someone is taking a shower etc,

Those corrosion areas not a concern? I’m

What is the best option
Electric water tank?
Can an indirect be added?
Or just replace

Fuel right sounds like a good idea since the oil is coming from the old tank

Wonder if it is filtered when pumped back in

Hot_water_fan

What is the best option
Electric water tank?
Can an indirect be added?

You can do either, it’s about a toss up - your boiler decision need not be impacted by your domestic hot water issues.

Robert O'Brien

Stack316 said:

Double wall was never mentioned, her is the tank proposal…,
Removal of existing oil from storage tank.
• Removal of existing oil storage tank.
• Installation of a 275 Gallon steel fuel oil storage tank.
• Installation of fuel level gauge and vent alarm.
• We will connect to your existing fill and vent piping.
• We will adjust piping to accommodate current code.
• We will connect the new tank to your existing oil line.
• Refill tank with the oil removed.
• Appropriate permits from the Town
• This installation will be completed per manufacturer’s recommendations and will comply with all applicable state and local codes.
• Complete removal of all trash and debris related to this installation.
• Proper disposal of old tank.

Do not pump old oil over, read install instructions attached

Stack316

2nd and 3rd proposal $ coming soon
3nd it would be a New Yorker, I only see one comparable with direct vent so expecting it to be a CI-HGS 3 pass cast iron with indirect I imagine NY35SL link SL
3rd would be a buderus triple bypass with indirect

Other difference both wants to replace everything piping etc from ceiling down and use the existing direct vent. First proposal was to re use a lot of the piping and existing shutoffs, valves and a new direct vent (which I suggested to include)
Also these 2 wanted to dig out the existing oil line from tank to boiler which is currently underground and replace to one on the surface.


Both agreed the tank needs replacing, the 2nd said the fuel additive was a waste.

Both shocked the oil tank is failing at 25.

1 more company stopping by tomorrow

Stack316

So the last guy that came said the piping of the coil was awful. Thoughts

random12345

Tanks-a-lot and Commtank are two I know of. I've used the first but not the second to remove an old tank. Jay Holmes is the owner. My relative has also used them. I know Tanks-a-lot just pumps the top part of the leftover oil and disposes of what's left in the bottom 1/4 or so. Commtank transfers everything and filters it too. I don't like that they've been sued multiple times though. I would be surprised if it voids the Granby warranty either way. You could call Granby to find out. I retract what I said about the double wall Roth tanks. The design is great, more expensive, safer than a Granby, but the line comes out the top of the tank. I don't know enough to say for sure whether or not it's worth it, but I'm not in the business like @STEVEusaPA.
As others have said, no need to replace boiler, just get an indirect tank to solve your hot water issues. If you have National Grid for electric, indirect will be far cheaper to operate than an electric tank, and also less than the coil you have now, and will probably last longer than a separate oil water heater. Plug in some numbers here and see for yourself: https://efficiencymaine.com/at-home/water-heating-cost-comparison/ When the boiler finally does start leaking, you can still keep using the indirect with the new replacement boiler. Anyway, I'm not a plumber but it looks like the corrosion is probably from a leaky gasket around the coil. If it's still leaking a bit, installing a new gasket would be in the hundreds to fix. Myself I think in general if it ain't broke, don't fix...but everyone's mindset and situation is different and I respect that.

Stack316

Last company left and this company was suggesting EK System 2000 with dilution air venting, so sounds like the resolute and he is the only one recommending the double lined oil tank. And his verbal estimates were well below both from my oil company and 1st quote for the peerless and regular oil tank, but anything can change when written put

Just waiting for the 3 quotes

JayMcCay

Thanks for the comments and Stack316 with your questions the Resolute RT would be an ideal choice for your application. Energy saving, ROI, quiet operation and near endless hot water are just a few benefits. Please give me a call I would be happy to review and go into more detail with you.

Jay

Stack316

Replace existing steel oil tank with a Roth double lined tank, new oil line and tiger loop included.

System 2000 EK-1 Resolute with 40 gallon 10 year warrantee hot water tank. This system has an AFUE of 91% and includes a direct vent kit to exhaust out the sidewall. Included in this price is a five zone manager, 2 zone valves, feeder, backflow, extrol, smoke pipe. Complete installation and removal of the old equipment.

Above is the third quote, do you see anything missing?

Thank you all

Stack316

Based off the proposal for the EK, any thoughts on which I would get (and yes I will call the company).  But what is the best, advantages/disadvantages?

reading ek manual I could get
1)Plate heat exchanger piped into the boiler bypass line
2)Plate heat exchanger piped as hot water zone
3) indirect with internal heat exchange coil


Since I have 2 zone of heat in the house and only have 2 zone valves in the proposal I image #2 is out.   

Thank you.  Will be sending in my deposit tomorrow with install next week

Roger

That’s great news, @Stack316 - I’m sure you’ll enjoy many years of quiet, efficient, heat and hot water.

Using the plate heat exchanger is very worthwhile for efficiency and hot water recovery and it’s what we’d recommend. If you have very hard water, then installing your hot water as a zone would be preferable (I assume this is not the case or you would probably have mentioned your tankless coil being fouled from hard water). A tank with a coil will not significantly thermally purge for hot water calls, so that would not be preferable in general (heat calls will thermal purge).

Hopefully that helps clear up your questions, although we’re here to help answer anything further; please give us a call if you’d like.

Best,

Roger

Stack316

Talked to the company and it will be #2
Plate heat exchanger piped as hot water zone

Stack316

2 hours in





I will need to learn vinyl siding repair

Stack316

How did the installer do?

HVACNUT

Nice. Good luck with it.