High efficiency wall mount boiler diagram questions

itsbackedup

The pump should be correct now right? 

hot_rod

The tube to the right of the boiler, is that a supply? Going where?

your loop cannot connect, cut it under the boiler and cap both ends like this drawing

now the boiler pump is injecting into a loop like the drawings I posted earlier

It us hard to tell with piped in front of one another and no labels or arrows

itsbackedup

hot_rod said:

The tube to the right of the boiler, is that a supply? Going where?

your loop cannot connect, cut it under the boiler and cap both ends like this drawing

now the boiler pump is injecting into a loop like the drawings I posted earlier

It us hard to tell with piped in front of one another and no labels or arrows

I thought I needed a continuous loop per what people posted and the installation instructions from the manufacturer manual? The line to the right of the boiler is a return line. I have 2 feed and 3 return lines. 

GroundUp

Again, a loop as you have will never flow anything to the zones. Path of least resistance and all that. You need to have a supply header and a return header, similar to what hot rod drew up. If you can cut the loop between the 2nd supply and 1st return and cap them both, then it should flow. No diagram anywhere shows a loop like you have, unless there are additional circs on each zone to pull from said loop, or a pressure differential bypass. You are using zone valves the way it looks, so there is nothing to create flow through the zones unless there is a disconnect between the last supply and first return. The circ is properly mounted now, sorry I did not realize that those were rotating flanges.

itsbackedup

GroundUp said:

Again, a loop as you have will never flow anything to the zones. Path of least resistance and all that. You need to have a supply header and a return header, similar to what hot rod drew up. If you can cut the loop between the 2nd supply and 1st return and cap them both, then it should flow. No diagram anywhere shows a loop like you have, unless there are additional circs on each zone to pull from said loop, or a pressure differential bypass. You are using zone valves the way it looks, so there is nothing to create flow through the zones unless there is a disconnect between the last supply and first return. The circ is properly mounted now, sorry I did not realize that those were rotating flanges.

So I didn't have any caps but did have a shut off valve on hand so now I can block that passage off between the feed and return. Also took apart the hot tee and rotated it. My plan is to get two 90s and look it back down to the air separator. Anything else you see that needs addressed ?

hot_rod

I'm not sure of your plan? I'm not seeing that you are correcting the problem?
Can you draw it on paper before you cut and change?

The pipe just to the right of the gas line that goes vertical, is it a supply to a zone?

itsbackedup

hot_rod said:

I'm not sure of your plan? I'm not seeing that you are correcting the problem? Can you draw it on paper before you cut and change? The pipe just to the right of the gas line that goes vertical, is it a supply to a zone?

Did you see the picture I posted with the shut off valve? Pipe to the right of gas line is return line. Instead of putting caps between the return and feed I just installed a ball valve as I had it on hand. 

hot_rod

But what is the tube going up left of that ball valve? it it is a supply, you valve location will not work.

itsbackedup

hot_rod said:

But what is the tube going up left of that ball valve? it it is a supply, you valve location will not work.

Return line 

hot_rod

Your first pic at the beginning of this thread showed two supplies, red, 2 returns blue. What is the 3 rd return?

Rich_49

If both the lines to the left of the valve you installed are returns and the 2 that are stacked on each other are supplies , you are good .

itsbackedup

hot_rod said:

Your first pic at the beginning of this thread showed two supplies, red, 2 returns blue. What is the 3 rd return?

You are correct. I forgot to add that on my original post. It was on the backside wall (not in view of original picture) I have since moved it to where it's at now. It's a return from an addition years ago. In this picture of the old boiler you can see that line on the left side with the red handle gate valve. I am assuming it's return as the previous set up only had two zone valves 

hot_rod

as Rich mentioned, you are good now

It won’t be a center fold in Hydronicboy magazine, but it will work

GroundUp

That looks much better. You should be good to go now, if you can get it purged properly

itsbackedup

GroundUp said:

That looks much better. You should be good to go now, if you can get it purged properly

Do worry I'm sure I'll have questions. Now I need to figure out how to hook up all the electrical stuff. Obviously the circulating pump is easy but the two valves that I have there is like six wires connected to each one

Rich_49

Yeah , not so difficult . https://www.supplyhouse.com/Uponor-Wirsbo-A3031003-Three-Zone-Control-Module . Or this , https://www.tacocomfort.com/product/zone-valve-controls/ . Or Caleffi . Really not a challenge , because the last guy was a Buffoon does not mean you MUST follow suit .

itsbackedup

Did you guys see this picture of what was previously there? Am I safe to assume that line on the left hand side of the picture with the red handle gate valve is a return line? That is the line you see that is to the right of the new boiler now

hot_rod

Look like they added some sort if control onto the zone valves, got a close up

itsbackedup

hot_rod said:

Look like they added some sort if control onto the zone valves, got a close up

I do not. This is all I have. It goes to the radiant heat in the utility / laundry room. Did they plumb it so that zone gets heat all the time when the pump kicks on? (I never noticed that room super hot in the winter) Only way to tell is I would have to crawl into the crawl space and see where the other and Loops into tied into I guess. 

hot_rod

Maybe ed or someone recognizes what they attached to the end of the HW zone valves, or why?

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

I looked back and saw that @GroundUp wanted the left hand tee rotated 90° counterclockwise. I don't agree. A tee is a tee.

GroundUp

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes said:

I looked back and saw that @GroundUp wanted the left hand tee rotated 90° counterclockwise. I don't agree. A tee is a tee.

A tee is not a tee. Water takes the path of least resistance, which is a crapshoot when the tee is bullheaded like that. The only way to achieve proper hydraulic separation in such a system is to have both tees in the same orientation with flow traveling through all 4 runs, which is the path of least resistance.

Also, he already rotated it.

hot_rod

There is really no way around a bull head tee with primary secondary via closely spaced tees

And flow could be coming from two different directions on the run, into or out if the tee branch. At two different flow rates even.

So a variable omni flow bull head tee

itsbackedup

Am I safe to move on to wiring ? 

hot_rod

Looks good, nice solder work

Consider a relay box like this. Super simple to wire, thermal fused  transformers in case you get something crossed up

ScottSecor

I think the zone valve in question is a Honeywell V4083. I do not recognize the "extension": that allows for a bx connector. I do not think there is really anything special about the electrical side of the zone valves.

itsbackedup

Here is a close up of each valve. Should I just remove all the wires and start over? They are Honeywell 

hot_rod

Look like they were trying to use the zone valve end switch to switch 120V? Not exactly code approved
And they added an additional junction box over the low voltage connections?

Need to see where the other ends of all those wires ends up.

4 low voltage thermostat leads is all you need to operate that valve correctly, and safely.

itsbackedup

This use to be the other end. I cut both about 1 foot away from the valve so they don't go to anything now. 

ScottSecor

I stand corrected. The wires may in fact be two different voltages. I am concerned that there may be 120 volts flowing to at least two of the terminals (screws). It appears that some of the wires are thin 18-22 gauge that we typically use for 24 volts. However, it also appears that there may be heavier/thicker wires that might be carrying 120 volts.

I suggest you test with a voltage meter before proceeding.

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

That my have been a good idea back then to avoid the extra wiring for a relay. And it's been working all these years, so you can't fault them for it. Now's the time to upgrade to a proper zone valve control. Easy to wire, easy to troubleshoot if a thermostat or zone valve ever go bad.

Rich_49

Would be a shame to leave those ugly zone valves in there . Purchase some new ones and a proper zone valve relay like I linked or what Hot Rod linked . You'll be glad you did .

itsbackedup

Rich_49 said:

Would be a shame to leave those ugly zone valves in there . Purchase some new ones and a proper zone valve relay like I linked or what Hot Rod linked . You'll be glad you did .

That's the valves that are being used. They are already soldered in. They both work