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High efficiency wall mount boiler diagram questions

itsbackedup
itsbackedup Member Posts: 37
Hi girls and guys. I'm looking to see if someone could help me with a diagram for hooking up my HE wall mount boiler. In the picture the two red circles are the feeds (one up stairs zone the other downstairs zone) the blue circles are the returns. The yellow is the fresh water feed from the house. I've been doing research and just confusing myself even more. I would really appreciate it if someone could guide me with a diagram on how it should be hooked up with two zones. Also I am clueless what the plastic "Auto water fill" is on the bottom of the unit? I do know I will need a pressure tank and who knows what else. I do have a handful of 3 way shut off valves / isolation valves.  Thanks 
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Comments

  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,738
    What is your location ?
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 5,937
    Is that Blue Monster Teflon Tape on Natural Gas?  Mad Dog 🐕 
  • itsbackedup
    itsbackedup Member Posts: 37
    Rich_49 said:
    What is your location ?


    Michigan 
  • itsbackedup
    itsbackedup Member Posts: 37
    Mad Dog_2 said:
    Is that Blue Monster Teflon Tape on Natural Gas?  Mad Dog 🐕 
    Yes 
    Mad Dog_2
  • HomerJSmith
    HomerJSmith Member Posts: 2,270
    The tape should be Blue Monster Gas Guard, yellow not blue.

    Mad Dog_2H2OBandit603
  • itsbackedup
    itsbackedup Member Posts: 37
    The tape should be Blue Monster Gas Guard, yellow not blue.
    Blue can be used on natural gas as well 
    Mad Dog_2
  • heathead
    heathead Member Posts: 226
    I have a basic question what is the model number. It looks like a tankless water heater?
  • itsbackedup
    itsbackedup Member Posts: 37
    heathead said:
    I have a basic question what is the model number. It looks like a tankless water heater?
    It's a combi it does both however I am just using it as a boiler and not using the domestic hot water side of it 
  • HomerJSmith
    HomerJSmith Member Posts: 2,270
    Yes, their video does specify Nat gas.
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 5,937
    That would NOT  fly in NYC or anywhere in NYS.  I think Blue Monster is the best Teflon Tape on the market, but I'd NEVER use it on gas or fuel oil....no matter what "They" say.    I don't even agree with the Yellow Tape, but atleast an inspector may allow the yellow tape as it IS allowed in many municipalities.  Do you have a specific reason you didn't use Pipe Dope paste?  Just curious?  Mad Dog 🐕 
    HomerJSmith
  • itsbackedup
    itsbackedup Member Posts: 37
    Mad Dog_2 said:
    That would NOT  fly in NYC or anywhere in NYS.  I think Blue Monster is the best Teflon Tape on the market, but I'd NEVER use it on gas or fuel oil....no matter what "They" say.    I don't even agree with the Yellow Tape, but atleast an inspector may allow the yellow tape as it IS allowed in many municipalities.  Do you have a specific reason you didn't use Pipe Dope paste?  Just curious?  Mad Dog 🐕 
    I used both actually 
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,738


    Rich_49 said:

    What is your location ?


    Michigan 

    That's kinda like saying England , they're roughly the same size .Where in Michigan ?
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • itsbackedup
    itsbackedup Member Posts: 37
    Rich_49 said:
    Rich_49 said:
    What is your location ?


    Michigan 
    That's kinda like saying England , they're roughly the same size .Where in Michigan ?
    Southeast Michigan. So not the super cold part lol 
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 8,437
    Is that a rebranded htp painted gray? There are diagrams in the htp manual.

    Are you zoning with valves or circulators?

    Does that boiler have an internal circulator?

    It should probably be piped primary secondary although that isnt an absolute if it is a fire tube boiler and there are 2 relatively large zones.

    Is the power cord going through a partition?
  • Alan (California Radiant) Forbes
    Alan (California Radiant) Forbes Member Posts: 3,733
    edited August 12
    To answer your question, here is a simple diagram. It shows an external boiler circulator, but your boiler may come with its own boiler circulator under the hood.



    The diagram is from Caleffi's wonderful series of publications called idronics. Their publication #1 called, "Hydraulic Separation ...." is probably something you should read.


    8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour

    Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab
    mattmia2Larry Weingarten
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 19,954
    Another way to pipe a boiler like that. Are your zones using valves or individual circulators?
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • itsbackedup
    itsbackedup Member Posts: 37
    hot_rod said:
    Another way to pipe a boiler like that. Are your zones using valves or individual circulators?
    I will be using one external pump for the whole system (boiler has an internal pump buts that's only for the domestic hot water application). Each zone will have a valve
  • itsbackedup
    itsbackedup Member Posts: 37
    mattmia2 said:
    Is that a rebranded htp painted gray? There are diagrams in the htp manual. Are you zoning with valves or circulators? Does that boiler have an internal circulator? It should probably be piped primary secondary although that isnt an absolute if it is a fire tube boiler and there are 2 relatively large zones. Is the power cord going through a partition?
    It is a Rheem brand. The diagram it came with in the instructions are not very helpful and for generic applications. Each zone will have one valve. One circulator pump for the whole system. Power cord is not hooked up. Just laying there in picture. House is 2,000 sq feet. Upstairs zone is like 600sq feet downstairs is the remaining 1400sqft 
  • What model Rheem boiler do you have?
    8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour

    Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab
  • itsbackedup
    itsbackedup Member Posts: 37
    What model Rheem boiler do you have?
    RCBH180DVLN
  • Alan (California Radiant) Forbes
    Alan (California Radiant) Forbes Member Posts: 3,733
    edited August 13
    Yes, there is one pump inside the boiler and a diverting valve to switch between DHW and heating modes. It is your primary pump in the heating mode.

    The manufacturer says to use primary-secondary piping to ensure proper flow through the boiler.

    You can buy a Rheem primary-Secondary header to make the installation easier.








    https://abrwholesalers.com/rtg20318-rheem-combi-boiler-primary-secondary-manifold-kit-drain-valves-for-easy-flushing-1-cts-with-1-1-4-cts-trunk103398

    8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour

    Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab
  • itsbackedup
    itsbackedup Member Posts: 37
    Can someone explain the cluster that is attached to the expansion tank? 
  • Alan (California Radiant) Forbes
    Alan (California Radiant) Forbes Member Posts: 3,733
    edited August 29
    Shutoff valve, backflow preventer, fill valve with a bypass, pressure gauge and then another shutoff valve in case any of the devices between the shutoff valves need servicing.

    The bypass comes in handy for purging and manually increasing the pressure if the fill valve sticks.
    8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour

    Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab
  • itsbackedup
    itsbackedup Member Posts: 37
    Shutoff valve, backflow preventer, fill valve with a bypass, pressure gauge and then another shutoff valve in case any of the devices between the shutoff valves need servicing. The bypass comes in handy for purging and manually increasing the pressure if the fill valves sticks.
    What's above the tank the fill valve or backflow preventer? 
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,738



    Shutoff valve, backflow preventer, fill valve with a bypass, pressure gauge and then another shutoff valve in case any of the devices between the shutoff valves need servicing.

    The bypass comes in handy for purging and manually increasing the pressure if the fill valves sticks.

    What's above the tank the fill valve or backflow preventer? 

    An air elimination device . A proper one , not an old school terrible air scoop which everyone plumbs improperly

    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • GroundUp
    GroundUp Member Posts: 1,656
    The diagram in the installation manual is pretty clear. Perhaps it would be in your best interest to hire someone who understands it? You will need an air eliminator, expansion tank, circulator w/ flanges, zone valves, and possibly manifolds depending on your zone requirements. You can not use the internal circulator to achieve what you're looking for here. That thing above the expansion tank is the air eliminator.
    Rich_49
  • itsbackedup
    itsbackedup Member Posts: 37
    GroundUp said:
    The diagram in the installation manual is pretty clear. Perhaps it would be in your best interest to hire someone who understands it? You will need an air eliminator, expansion tank, circulator w/ flanges, zone valves, and possibly manifolds depending on your zone requirements. You can not use the internal circulator to achieve what you're looking for here. That thing above the expansion tank is the air eliminator.
    Thanks for the input however I am trying to learn that's why I am here asking questions. I am capable of doing the work myself just need to understand each component a little more 
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,738
    That item you posted is a fine choice
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • itsbackedup
    itsbackedup Member Posts: 37
    This is where I am at currently. Still need to hook up the fill water line. Need to redo the condensate line in PVC (just temp so my hot water unit works) and also need to wire everything in. Then hope I have no major leaks anywhere. 
  • Alan (California Radiant) Forbes
    Alan (California Radiant) Forbes Member Posts: 3,733
    edited August 28
    You'e got 3 - ¾ x ½ tees after the pump. I don't think you need to carry on from there; just cap the ¾" pipe otherwise you're going to mix with the return, raising the return water temperature which would reduce or stop the boiler from condensing, reducing efficiency.

    The diagram above shows them connected, but only when using a pressure differential bypass valve which you certainly can add.
    8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour

    Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab
  • itsbackedup
    itsbackedup Member Posts: 37
    You'e got 3 - ¾ x ½ tees after the pump. I don't think you need to carry on from there; just cap the ¾" pipe otherwise you're going to mix with the return, raising the return water temperature which would reduce or stop the boiler from condensing, reducing efficiency. The diagram above shows them connected, but only when using a pressure differential bypass valve which you certainly can add.
    I have 4 - 1"x 3/4" x 1" tees. Each feed zone is 3/4 (first two after the pump) then the remaining two are return lines 3/4" return then 1" then 3/4" return then back to the 1" tee going to cold side of boiler. If adding a differential bypass valve where would I add it or what do you mean cap the 3/4" pipe ?
  • AndySmith
    AndySmith Member Posts: 1
    Your tee on the supply side is not facing the right direction. You need to pipe that into the branch of the tee instead of the run. You will not have proper separation between the boiler loop and the system loop with the tees like that.
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,738
    The motor on your pump should turn down 90* . That should never really be up or down , motor should always be horizontal
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
    Larry Weingarten
  • GroundUp
    GroundUp Member Posts: 1,656
    Now cut it all apart and start over. The far left tee needs to be turned counterclockwise 90*. The pump needs to rotate down 90*. And you essentially have two primary loops, so none of the zones will ever see any flow- it's just going to loop around the path of least resistance.
    Rich_49
  • itsbackedup
    itsbackedup Member Posts: 37
    GroundUp said:
    Now cut it all apart and start over. The far left tee needs to be turned counterclockwise 90*. The pump needs to rotate down 90*. And you essentially have two primary loops, so none of the zones will ever see any flow- it's just going to loop around the path of least resistance.
    How is there two primary loops? As for the pump that is on a swivel so I can twist the pump which ever direction or at you talking about rotating the whole housing itself ? 
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 19,954
    Here is an example of a "best practices" primary secondary piping arrangement. The space between the tees as shrrt as possible to prevent flow to the branches. piping upstream and down to minimize turbulence under high primary flow.

    Your system will work as piped, although not ideal.

    Heatway, Watts Radiant built Hydro Control panels with a primary secondary, pic included, on a tee like yours. And with wide spacing and a valve between the tees! Thousands of them were installed for 10- 15 years, possibly still built that way, and while not picture perfect, they work.

    The flow across or thru the tees depends on the flow rates each pump provides. In some cases there is even a portion of reverse flow across the tees. Try it and see how it works before you start over.

    The pump should turn down to motor horizontal.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    Rich_49
  • GroundUp
    GroundUp Member Posts: 1,656


    GroundUp said:

    Now cut it all apart and start over. The far left tee needs to be turned counterclockwise 90*. The pump needs to rotate down 90*. And you essentially have two primary loops, so none of the zones will ever see any flow- it's just going to loop around the path of least resistance.

    How is there two primary loops? As for the pump that is on a swivel so I can twist the pump which ever direction or at you talking about rotating the whole housing itself ? 

    The pump motor needs to be horizontal, according to Grundfos. This will require cutting it apart or unsweating the flanges to rotate them 90 degrees. You have nothing forcing the fluid into the zones. The way you have it piped, the fluid will simply take the path of least resistance and circulate through the runs of all the tees and right back to the circ. Almost zero flow will ever reach the zones as piped. I'm not sure what @hot_rod is looking at, but it's quite literally impossible for this system to work as piped. The closely spaced tees thing would work as-is, but since you have to cut it all apart anyway to send flow through the zones and rotate the circ, it'd be wise to also fix that.
    Rich_49GGross
  • GGross
    GGross Member Posts: 703
    I vote to repipe it as well, on the plus side you have done nice work with your solder joints!
    Alan (California Radiant) Forbes
  • itsbackedup
    itsbackedup Member Posts: 37
    GroundUp said:
    GroundUp said:
    Now cut it all apart and start over. The far left tee needs to be turned counterclockwise 90*. The pump needs to rotate down 90*. And you essentially have two primary loops, so none of the zones will ever see any flow- it's just going to loop around the path of least resistance.
    How is there two primary loops? As for the pump that is on a swivel so I can twist the pump which ever direction or at you talking about rotating the whole housing itself ? 
    The pump motor needs to be horizontal, according to Grundfos. This will require cutting it apart or unsweating the flanges to rotate them 90 degrees. You have nothing forcing the fluid into the zones. The way you have it piped, the fluid will simply take the path of least resistance and circulate through the runs of all the tees and right back to the circ. Almost zero flow will ever reach the zones as piped. I'm not sure what @hot_rod is looking at, but it's quite literally impossible for this system to work as piped. The closely spaced tees thing would work as-is, but since you have to cut it all apart anyway to send flow through the zones and rotate the circ, it'd be wise to also fix that.
    So how would you suggest I position the zone "tees" off of the primary loop? If i am not mistaken I have them just how the installation manual shows them.