High efficiency wall mount boiler diagram questions

itsbackedup

Hi girls and guys. I'm looking to see if someone could help me with a diagram for hooking up my HE wall mount boiler. In the picture the two red circles are the feeds (one up stairs zone the other downstairs zone) the blue circles are the returns. The yellow is the fresh water feed from the house. I've been doing research and just confusing myself even more. I would really appreciate it if someone could guide me with a diagram on how it should be hooked up with two zones. Also I am clueless what the plastic "Auto water fill" is on the bottom of the unit? I do know I will need a pressure tank and who knows what else. I do have a handful of 3 way shut off valves / isolation valves.  Thanks 

Rich_49

What is your location ?

Mad Dog_2

Is that Blue Monster Teflon Tape on Natural Gas?  Mad Dog 🐕 

itsbackedup

Rich_49 said:

What is your location ?


Michigan 

itsbackedup

Mad Dog_2 said:

Is that Blue Monster Teflon Tape on Natural Gas?  Mad Dog 🐕 

Yes 

HomerJSmith

The tape should be Blue Monster Gas Guard, yellow not blue.

itsbackedup

HomerJSmith said:

The tape should be Blue Monster Gas Guard, yellow not blue.

Blue can be used on natural gas as well 

heathead

I have a basic question what is the model number. It looks like a tankless water heater?

itsbackedup

heathead said:

I have a basic question what is the model number. It looks like a tankless water heater?

It's a combi it does both however I am just using it as a boiler and not using the domestic hot water side of it 

HomerJSmith

Yes, their video does specify Nat gas.

Mad Dog_2

That would NOT  fly in NYC or anywhere in NYS.  I think Blue Monster is the best Teflon Tape on the market, but I'd NEVER use it on gas or fuel oil....no matter what "They" say.    I don't even agree with the Yellow Tape, but atleast an inspector may allow the yellow tape as it IS allowed in many municipalities.  Do you have a specific reason you didn't use Pipe Dope paste?  Just curious?  Mad Dog 🐕 

itsbackedup

Mad Dog_2 said:

That would NOT  fly in NYC or anywhere in NYS.  I think Blue Monster is the best Teflon Tape on the market, but I'd NEVER use it on gas or fuel oil....no matter what "They" say.    I don't even agree with the Yellow Tape, but atleast an inspector may allow the yellow tape as it IS allowed in many municipalities.  Do you have a specific reason you didn't use Pipe Dope paste?  Just curious?  Mad Dog 🐕 

I used both actually 

Rich_49

itsbackedup said:

Rich_49 said:

What is your location ?


Michigan 

That's kinda like saying England , they're roughly the same size .Where in Michigan ?

itsbackedup

Rich_49 said:

Rich_49 said:

What is your location ?


Michigan 

That's kinda like saying England , they're roughly the same size .Where in Michigan ?

Southeast Michigan. So not the super cold part lol 

mattmia2

Is that a rebranded htp painted gray? There are diagrams in the htp manual.

Are you zoning with valves or circulators?

Does that boiler have an internal circulator?

It should probably be piped primary secondary although that isnt an absolute if it is a fire tube boiler and there are 2 relatively large zones.

Is the power cord going through a partition?

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

To answer your question, here is a simple diagram. It shows an external boiler circulator, but your boiler may come with its own boiler circulator under the hood.



The diagram is from Caleffi's wonderful series of publications called idronics. Their publication #1 called, "Hydraulic Separation ...." is probably something you should read.

hot_rod

Another way to pipe a boiler like that. Are your zones using valves or individual circulators?

itsbackedup

hot_rod said:

Another way to pipe a boiler like that. Are your zones using valves or individual circulators?

I will be using one external pump for the whole system (boiler has an internal pump buts that's only for the domestic hot water application). Each zone will have a valve

itsbackedup

mattmia2 said:

Is that a rebranded htp painted gray? There are diagrams in the htp manual. Are you zoning with valves or circulators? Does that boiler have an internal circulator? It should probably be piped primary secondary although that isnt an absolute if it is a fire tube boiler and there are 2 relatively large zones. Is the power cord going through a partition?

It is a Rheem brand. The diagram it came with in the instructions are not very helpful and for generic applications. Each zone will have one valve. One circulator pump for the whole system. Power cord is not hooked up. Just laying there in picture. House is 2,000 sq feet. Upstairs zone is like 600sq feet downstairs is the remaining 1400sqft 

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

What model Rheem boiler do you have?

itsbackedup

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes said:

What model Rheem boiler do you have?

RCBH180DVLN

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

Yes, there is one pump inside the boiler and a diverting valve to switch between DHW and heating modes. It is your primary pump in the heating mode.

The manufacturer says to use primary-secondary piping to ensure proper flow through the boiler.

You can buy a Rheem primary-Secondary header to make the installation easier.








https://abrwholesalers.com/rtg20318-rheem-combi-boiler-primary-secondary-manifold-kit-drain-valves-for-easy-flushing-1-cts-with-1-1-4-cts-trunk103398

itsbackedup

Can someone explain the cluster that is attached to the expansion tank? 

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

Shutoff valve, backflow preventer, fill valve with a bypass, pressure gauge and then another shutoff valve in case any of the devices between the shutoff valves need servicing.

The bypass comes in handy for purging and manually increasing the pressure if the fill valve sticks.

itsbackedup

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes said:

Shutoff valve, backflow preventer, fill valve with a bypass, pressure gauge and then another shutoff valve in case any of the devices between the shutoff valves need servicing. The bypass comes in handy for purging and manually increasing the pressure if the fill valves sticks.

What's above the tank the fill valve or backflow preventer? 

Rich_49

itsbackedup said:

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes said:

Shutoff valve, backflow preventer, fill valve with a bypass, pressure gauge and then another shutoff valve in case any of the devices between the shutoff valves need servicing.

The bypass comes in handy for purging and manually increasing the pressure if the fill valves sticks.

What's above the tank the fill valve or backflow preventer? 

An air elimination device . A proper one , not an old school terrible air scoop which everyone plumbs improperly

GroundUp

The diagram in the installation manual is pretty clear. Perhaps it would be in your best interest to hire someone who understands it? You will need an air eliminator, expansion tank, circulator w/ flanges, zone valves, and possibly manifolds depending on your zone requirements. You can not use the internal circulator to achieve what you're looking for here. That thing above the expansion tank is the air eliminator.

itsbackedup

GroundUp said:

The diagram in the installation manual is pretty clear. Perhaps it would be in your best interest to hire someone who understands it? You will need an air eliminator, expansion tank, circulator w/ flanges, zone valves, and possibly manifolds depending on your zone requirements. You can not use the internal circulator to achieve what you're looking for here. That thing above the expansion tank is the air eliminator.

Thanks for the input however I am trying to learn that's why I am here asking questions. I am capable of doing the work myself just need to understand each component a little more 

itsbackedup

Looks like I need to purchase something like this ? 

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Taco-TTK-100C-PRM-1-Premium-Near-Boiler-Trim-Kit-Air-Separator-Combination-Boiler-Feed-Valve-Backflow-Preventer-4-1-2-Gal-Expansion-Tank?utm_source=google_ad&utm_medium=shopping_neutral&utm_campaign=Shopping_Neutral_Returning_users&gclid=CjwKCAjwloynBhBbEiwAGY25dMiXkVjaxDsq_u3q7KZWcn1Tdh04ffrOwVfL6a0zvjvvPsUes_6cHxoCt0kQAvD_BwE

Rich_49

That item you posted is a fine choice

itsbackedup

This is where I am at currently. Still need to hook up the fill water line. Need to redo the condensate line in PVC (just temp so my hot water unit works) and also need to wire everything in. Then hope I have no major leaks anywhere. 

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

You'e got 3 - ¾ x ½ tees after the pump. I don't think you need to carry on from there; just cap the ¾" pipe otherwise you're going to mix with the return, raising the return water temperature which would reduce or stop the boiler from condensing, reducing efficiency.

The diagram above shows them connected, but only when using a pressure differential bypass valve which you certainly can add.

itsbackedup

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes said:

You'e got 3 - ¾ x ½ tees after the pump. I don't think you need to carry on from there; just cap the ¾" pipe otherwise you're going to mix with the return, raising the return water temperature which would reduce or stop the boiler from condensing, reducing efficiency. The diagram above shows them connected, but only when using a pressure differential bypass valve which you certainly can add.

I have 4 - 1"x 3/4" x 1" tees. Each feed zone is 3/4 (first two after the pump) then the remaining two are return lines 3/4" return then 1" then 3/4" return then back to the 1" tee going to cold side of boiler. If adding a differential bypass valve where would I add it or what do you mean cap the 3/4" pipe ?

AndySmith

Your tee on the supply side is not facing the right direction. You need to pipe that into the branch of the tee instead of the run. You will not have proper separation between the boiler loop and the system loop with the tees like that.

Rich_49

The motor on your pump should turn down 90* . That should never really be up or down , motor should always be horizontal

GroundUp

Now cut it all apart and start over. The far left tee needs to be turned counterclockwise 90*. The pump needs to rotate down 90*. And you essentially have two primary loops, so none of the zones will ever see any flow- it's just going to loop around the path of least resistance.

itsbackedup

GroundUp said:

Now cut it all apart and start over. The far left tee needs to be turned counterclockwise 90*. The pump needs to rotate down 90*. And you essentially have two primary loops, so none of the zones will ever see any flow- it's just going to loop around the path of least resistance.

How is there two primary loops? As for the pump that is on a swivel so I can twist the pump which ever direction or at you talking about rotating the whole housing itself ? 

hot_rod

Here is an example of a "best practices" primary secondary piping arrangement. The space between the tees as shrrt as possible to prevent flow to the branches. piping upstream and down to minimize turbulence under high primary flow.

Your system will work as piped, although not ideal.

Heatway, Watts Radiant built Hydro Control panels with a primary secondary, pic included, on a tee like yours. And with wide spacing and a valve between the tees! Thousands of them were installed for 10- 15 years, possibly still built that way, and while not picture perfect, they work.

The flow across or thru the tees depends on the flow rates each pump provides. In some cases there is even a portion of reverse flow across the tees. Try it and see how it works before you start over.

The pump should turn down to motor horizontal.

GroundUp

itsbackedup said:

GroundUp said:

Now cut it all apart and start over. The far left tee needs to be turned counterclockwise 90*. The pump needs to rotate down 90*. And you essentially have two primary loops, so none of the zones will ever see any flow- it's just going to loop around the path of least resistance.

How is there two primary loops? As for the pump that is on a swivel so I can twist the pump which ever direction or at you talking about rotating the whole housing itself ? 

The pump motor needs to be horizontal, according to Grundfos. This will require cutting it apart or unsweating the flanges to rotate them 90 degrees. You have nothing forcing the fluid into the zones. The way you have it piped, the fluid will simply take the path of least resistance and circulate through the runs of all the tees and right back to the circ. Almost zero flow will ever reach the zones as piped. I'm not sure what @hot_rod is looking at, but it's quite literally impossible for this system to work as piped. The closely spaced tees thing would work as-is, but since you have to cut it all apart anyway to send flow through the zones and rotate the circ, it'd be wise to also fix that.

GGross

I vote to repipe it as well, on the plus side you have done nice work with your solder joints!

itsbackedup

GroundUp said:

GroundUp said:

Now cut it all apart and start over. The far left tee needs to be turned counterclockwise 90*. The pump needs to rotate down 90*. And you essentially have two primary loops, so none of the zones will ever see any flow- it's just going to loop around the path of least resistance.

How is there two primary loops? As for the pump that is on a swivel so I can twist the pump which ever direction or at you talking about rotating the whole housing itself ? 

The pump motor needs to be horizontal, according to Grundfos. This will require cutting it apart or unsweating the flanges to rotate them 90 degrees. You have nothing forcing the fluid into the zones. The way you have it piped, the fluid will simply take the path of least resistance and circulate through the runs of all the tees and right back to the circ. Almost zero flow will ever reach the zones as piped. I'm not sure what @hot_rod is looking at, but it's quite literally impossible for this system to work as piped. The closely spaced tees thing would work as-is, but since you have to cut it all apart anyway to send flow through the zones and rotate the circ, it'd be wise to also fix that.

So how would you suggest I position the zone "tees" off of the primary loop? If i am not mistaken I have them just how the installation manual shows them.