Simple indoor timer switch woes for outdoor house lights

electronictofu

Hi all,

I have 5 outdoor, low-wattage accent lights mounting to the outside of my house. Simple on-off flip switch inside the house. I'm in dire need to get these on a timer switch.

Issue: My house was built in 1952, so 75% of my home has no grounded outlets and switches, the other 25% being when I took walls down years ago, I was able to upgrade, not it's not feasible.

I've seen various wall switches, digital, and analog, with varying 7-day timers. I want something super simple to turn them on at night and off at sunrise. I've seen several switches sold as "no ground required" or no neutral wire needed, and so on. I've tried about 4 different styles, and I can't seem to get it right.

My wiring skills are a smidge above average, but this seemingly simple project is kicking me around. I can post photos if needed, any tips on wiring, or what kind of unit to buy. I tried one from home depot and a few different ones off amazon and ebay. I don't want a wi-fi or bluetooth unit.

This is one I tried:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07YBJL3Q4/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Great appreciations in advance,
Phillip

Steamhead

This might sound like a stupid question, but if all you want is dusk-to-dawn, why not use a photocell control?

109A_5

Hello @electronictofu,
Many pitfalls here. Some devices like possibly the one you referenced above actually need the ground to be grounded, since they sneakily use the ground as a Neutral. The National Electric Code was updated a while back to include a Neutral wire in switch boxes since the other thing that was going on was folks were using the Ground (in the absence of the Neutral conductor) as a Neutral to get devices like proximity switches to work.

Neutral current should only be in Neutral conductors, and only fault currents in the Ground wires.

The other thing is the type of load you have may be messing with the electronic switching system inside your timer device. It may need to see a resistive type load like an incandescent lamp, and if your low-wattage accent lights are effectively strings of LEDs inside, your timer device may not work as expected.

You may want to set up the timer device on a workbench and see what it really needs to work correctly.

HVACNUT

I've got my outside floods on a switched photo cell. 

retiredguy

If you really want something simple why not just buy a 24hour simple light timer that you can select the on/off time that you can plug into any wall receptacle inside the house or use a day/night photo cell.

electronictofu

That's actually really smart. I would think that would work. I already have all of my lights installed. I knew that existed but Ive only seen it on each individual light, or those special light bulbs with a sensor and that's not an option. But if I can do just one photocell controller/ sensor in-line and leave my wall switch on all the time that could possibly work. The wiring goes through a lot of walls, and spans a good bit of my house and side of house, so Im not sure if that'd work, in regards to WHERE in-line to wire one in, at the front where power is coming in, or at the end/ the last light, or if it even matters? Hmmm....

Here's 2 potential options, the photocell Im not sure where in-line to wire it, Id assume right after the switch and right before all of the lights?
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09MR6R5K4/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?smid=A2CJD4IWTBUUXL&psc=1

Or I can go old school analog, and I'd assume this would work and swap out the switch inside?
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B013IDCGU2/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1

And my hi-tech drawing. Breaker power main, to wall switch in kitchen, and then goes to the front of the house to one main light and it T's off into the other lights in a row.

Steamhead said:

This might sound like a stupid question, but if all you want is dusk-to-dawn, why not use a photocell control?

109A_5

Hello @electronictofu,
Personally I like the photocell option. No timer to deal with as the daylight (night) hours change and DST issues. At former home I installed a 35 Watt High Pressure Sodium fixture above the back door where an incandescent fixture was, plenty of light, very low maintenance, it had its own photocell, I didn't have to touch it or the switch in over 12 years.

HPS is probably not what you are looking for if you just want accent lights, but for me the photocell worked great.

A photocell could be wired in anywhere between the circuit breaker panel and the outdoor lamps, assuming that the branch circuit serves no other outlets or loads.

Both a photocell and the "NSi 701B 24 Hour Mechanical in-Wall Time Switch, 20 Amps, White" need a Neutral, so that may help determine where it is placed. Is there a Neutral wire in your switch box ?

electronictofu

109A_5 said:

Hello @electronictofu,
Personally I like the photocell option. No timer to deal with as the daylight (night) hours change and DST issues. At former home I installed a 35 Watt High Pressure Sodium fixture above the back door where an incandescent fixture was, plenty of light, very low maintenance, it had its own photocell, I didn't have to touch it or the switch in over 12 years.

HPS is probably not what you are looking for if you just want accent lights, but for me the photocell worked great.

A photocell could be wired in anywhere between the circuit breaker panel and the outdoor lamps, assuming that the branch circuit serves no other outlets or loads.

Both a photocell and the "NSi 701B 24 Hour Mechanical in-Wall Time Switch, 20 Amps, White" need a Neutral, so that may help determine where it is placed. Is there a Neutral wire in your switch box ?

Nice, I like that idea too. I just have to figure out how to wire it in. From the breaker main power, I think I have some outlets on the way to the switch, then the switch goes out to the lights. Most of my house wiring is straight up old 1952 wiring , black and white, and a few outlets have proper grounds when a wall was removed. Otherwise it's just a black and white wire (White being neutral I believe?). So yes? I think? just no official grounds on most outlets and switches.

109A_5

electronictofu said:

Otherwise it's just a black and white wire (White being neutral I believe?). So yes? I think? just no official grounds on most outlets and switches.

Yes the White is typically Neutral and should be bonded to the Earth Ground at the Service Equipment. However I never trust that, I've seen it messed up too many times. I always verify what is Hot and what is not, some folks like to switch the Neutral too for some reason that is beyond me.

I would imagine the easiest place to add a photocell is where your accent lights are plugged in or nearby. Just don't let the accent lights influence the photocell, it may oscillate.

Sometimes if the power is fed to the lighting outlet and the switch box just has two wires in it, it does not have an actual Neutral in it and the White wire is not labeled as a Hot or switched Hot as is should be, just saying.

Jamie Hall

As folks have been saying -- older wiring may, or may not, have been done according to the codes (and yes, there were codes in those days -- they just were different). A few thoughts. First, never, ever assume a wire is dead even if you've flipped the circuit breaker or pulled the fuse. For that matter, never assume that a black wire is hot and a white one isn't. Always test. Every time. If you don't have a non-contact voltage tester -- they're a little pen-like contraption which lights up when it's near an energized wire -- go over to the local big box and get one.

Second, if you open a switch box up and the switch has two wires going to it and no other wires in the box, the neutral may be somewhere else instead, and the switch just interrupting the hot. Both wires should be black or red-- but nay not be, if the work was sloppy. Problem is, if you are counting on having power in that box, you don't, since you don't have a neutral. A remote switch leg like that is perfectly legal, and actually quite common even in new work.

As @109A_5 mentioned, now and then you may find that some bright soul decided to switch the neutral, rather than the hot. This has NEVER been permissible (well, hardly ever, but the exceptions are pretty exotic)-- but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. This makes it all the more important to never assume the power is off, as if you hit that arrangement, the fixtures and all are still connected back to power, even with the switch off, and if you should happen to touch the hot and a ground, you will complete the circuit and light up, which can ruin your whole day.

While you are at it, don't assume that the neutral is actually the neutral -- the wires may have gotten swapped at some intermediate junction box. Check, check, check.