Please Fact-check Retired Plumber's Advice Re: TRVs & Lockshields

SENorthEast1895er

I live in a 1895 house in NE USA with 2-pipe hot-water system. There are no lock shields on the system. Some of my manual valves are stuck (haven't tried too much to loosen them; just enough to break the wooden handle and cast piece that joins it to the stem).

I'm looking to solve balancing issues and, ideally, increase efficiency. I thought I needed to install lockshield valves to solve balance issues and TRVs to increase efficiency due to things I've read here and every balancing guide I've seen online.

However, I just talked to a retired plumber in the area and he's told me that he wouldn't bother with any of it. He said:

• TRVs aren't used as much anymore with modern boilers
  
• assuming proper balancing, outdoor reset will negate the need for TRVs and minimize their benefit
  
• lockshield valves are unnecessary; just balance the system with the valve that's already on there (he wasn't even particularly familiar with lockshield valves)
  
• installing TRVs and/or lockshields will be a true PIA as nothing will line up; new valves will be too deep, etc, etc. It's not as simple as "take old valve off, put new valve on"
  

Can someone please fact check me on this? At the very least, I want the system balanced, and every guide I can find is some British guy explaining how to adjust the lockshield valve.

I have a hard time imagining TRVs are of minimal benefit, given that they're still installed on new, high efficiency construction (at least, per Danfoss's promo materials).

Thanks

hot_rod

Mainly a TRV offers automatic temperature control for individual radiators or  groups of radiators. By design, balancing comes along with some TRV assemblies

Lock shield is just the brass valve itself. It is a manual valve that in most cases can be upgraded with a TRV head

You do not need a valve on both ends of a radiator, as the system you have now works with one valve, and that valve can slso manually balance.

so unless you are adding TRV functions now or later really no need to just add a lock shied

It really comes down to your wants or expectation first. Do you need or want radiators controlled automatically? For comfort and fuel savings?

Next us it worth the time and money to do the upgrade?

I agree with the plumber that it will be a bit of a job upgrading. Working with old threaded pipe, things can go bad. Id find a plumber with a lot of threaded pipe experience. It will probably be an older guy or gal👳‍♀️👳‍♂️

While not a common in the US, millions of TRV are sold yearly in Europe and other parts of the world, they work great with modern boilers

bburd

Lockshield valves are balancing valves installed on the return side of the radiator. They are almost universal in Europe and the UK, and almost unheard of in the United States.

ScottSecor

I'm with Hot Rod on these issues. While we certainly have installed many TRVs, they are rarely a quick and easy install. The benefits may or may not be worth the cost of the labor and materials. This is especialy true if the original designer was good at sizing the radiation.

One other thing to consider, is that we've noticed with older hot water systems (made up of mostly steel and iron), that metallic particles occasionally end up on-or-in the seat of the brand new valve.

SENorthEast1895er

@ScottSecor original design is part of my problem. One radiator has been removed by previous owner and needs to be replaced. And one room on the third floor seems to be under-sized vs all the other rooms. 

A final problem; when these radiators get hot, they stink to high heaven, due to the previous owners choice to paint them with industrial marine paint. 

It was much less of an issue this winter after I lowered boiler temp (we just bought the house and I found that boiler temp was much, much higher than necessary. Still stank sometimes) and hopefully won’t be an issue this winter after I put on an outdoor reset. But it was a pretty mild winter, and we’ll have renters on the third floor this year. Don’t want them complaining about the stink and was hoping TRVs would help. 

SENorthEast1895er

@ScottSecor @hot_rod
ok, so consensus is that it’s not worth it unless there’s extenuating circumstances, as it would be a pain in the tuckus.

How does your assessments change if multiple valves are stuck closed and the system is unbalanced (tried the tricks i saw on youtube; tapping and penetrating lube. no luck yet, but i’ll keep doing a little bit each day over the next week and see if i can get them to open).

hot_rod

Manual, wheeled type vales that are stuck?

It would be a much easier task to open those valves at the bonnet nut and work em over, compared to a new TRV lockshield upgrade.

SENorthEast1895er

Hi Hot Rod,
yes, manual, wheeled valves. After this comment a few months ago, I worked over a valve or two by opening them as you described. I had luck and figured I’d do the rest later.

Unfortunately, I wasn’t able to get the other ones open (maybe i need to try harder); by all outward appearances, the valve stem has corroded to the bonnet nut. When I turn the stem, the nut turns, I assume this is a slightly different issue than the actual valve being stuck. For reference, some of these valves are old enough to have wooden handles.

Also wondering if your risk/reward assessment changes with the additional knowledge that these radiators where completely removed for sandblasting less than 5 years ago (previous owner; why they didn’t replace valves then is beyond me).

Labor would be me; I just installed replaced an old american standard rad that had been retrofitted with equal footage of baseboard. needless to say, it didn’t work well. i got a american standard rad from salvage and replaced it myself; pretty happy with the job I did (no leaks… except for the spuds installed by the salvage yard). long winded way of saying that cost will be supplies (unless I screw something up, but that’s why I’d start on the first floor and be gentle).

Jamie Hall

That's pesky when the bonnet nut turns with the handle... back the bonnet off a little with the handle, since it wants to do that anyway (assuming the valve isn't fully open) and then hold the bonnet nut with a good crescent wrench (NOT a pipe wrench) and try turning the handle -- and try tapping on it (don't whack it, but not a tippy tap either). PB Blaster may help...

Mad Dog_2

TRVs are excellent but should be used sparingly in overheated rooms. Especially in my Apartment building, co-op, Condo Consultations, .EVERYONE wants a TRV in EVERY radiator in their Apartment! Total waste & unnecessary. Mad Dog 🐕 

SENorthEast1895er

yea; i figured i can go the winter with things as-is and wait to tap things loose until summer. didn’t get my pb blaster out on these valves yet.

i also have an apartment on the third floor of our house (heat is included in the rent) and i want to put tamper-proof TRVs up there to help balance things out.

mad dog, where would you not put a TRV (other than t-stat room)?