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Gorton #2 Installation

rjm451
rjm451 Member Posts: 3
Hello ,
I have a 2 pipe gravity system fed by a Weil Mclain boiler. Though the boiler doesn’t have many heating hours on it , the system was not maintained by the previous owners and so I have been working on getting it back on track over the last few heating seasons. I have replaced all of the radiator and crossover traps which seemed to help greatly however my gas bills have been very high and so I have been trying to make additional improvements. From my reading of Dan Holohans book as well some of the content posted on here, I started looking into the system venting . there is an old dunham 640 air eliminator installed which I believe wasn’t working and so I removed the ball float and check valve portion and installed a Gorton #2 onto the top of it. however, I soon realized that there is no steam coming into the dunham at any time during operation and so the Gorton vent is useless. I now suspect that the Dunham 640 might just be a leftover from the original boiler. I would like to properly install the Gorton vent but am confused as to where I should install it. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.
-Ryan
Below are pictures of my system. The dunham air eliminator is on the right side of the boiler up towards the rafters.






Comments

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 22,906
    If this is actually a two pipe steam system, with genuine dry returns and crossover traps with the air eliminator or Gorton on the dry return, where it belongs, then that air eliminator -- or the Gorton -- should never see steam. There should never be steam in the dry return.

    What happens is that air is forced out of the mains and goes to the dry returns throught the crossover traps, and air is foced out of the radiators and goes through their traps into the dry returns -- and that air is then released from the dry returns by the air eliminator (hence the name) or the Gorton. But -- steam never gets there. It's blocked by the traps.

    Now -- there is a way to tell if that vent is big enough (it probably is, but one can find out): what pressure does the system operate at when the radiators are more or less half full? It should be less than half a pound -- in fact, more than likely it should be a few ounces at most. You'll need a low pressure gauge to find out.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    Mad Dog_2
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 6,697
    I can't tell from your pictures, but find the end of the Dry Return close to the boiler.  There may be an old plugged tee.  This is in the vicinity that the Gorton #2s should be.  They should be piped as high as u can get them.  Build a Battery of tees, with a pipe plug on the end to add more if needed.  There is a Formula to figure how many cubic feet or air the vent battery needs to accommodate, but just looking at that boiler, start with 2 Gorton #2s...see how that goes...KEEP piping on vent battery same size as the pipe its tee'd in to.  Use reducing tees right up to the Gorton 2s which are 1/2"   mad Dog 🐕 
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 6,697
    This is an apartment building, but you get the idea 💡? This building had one Tiny Gorton #1 in the same spot.  25% of apartments were cold...for years!! Added in the Mad Dog Battery, found an additional problem of undersized boiler...Voila!  A mechanical engineer...at his wit's end hired me...from HH of course!  That was almost 20 yrs ago,, man....Mad Dog 🐕 
  • Big Ed_4
    Big Ed_4 Member Posts: 2,690
    edited July 2023
    The Dunham was used in the old hand stoker boilers . One too many shovels the Durham kicks in . It really not needed with new controlled boilers . You can just add a drip tube and a bucket for safety . .As Mr hall stated no steam should enter , if you do you need to work on the bad trap .
    I have enough experience to know , that I dont know it all
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,719
    @rjm451 , looks to me like that system is being vented thru the boiler-feed tank.

    What did you use for crossover traps?

    What pressure is that system running at?
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    Mad Dog_2
  • rjm451
    rjm451 Member Posts: 3
    i must apologize for the delay , this was my first post and i wasnt receiving the notifications. thank you all for your input, this is very helpful to a novice such as myself.
    crossover(s): there are two traps in the near boiler piping- One is a trane #2 which is actually piped to a ceiling radiator in the adjacent room and the other ( a dunham bush) is just slightly downstream but tied into the other return lines . i have replaced the bellows with tunstall capsules on both.
    From everyone's comments it seems that where i installed the Gorton #2 may be correct (ontop of the dunham 640) , its just that it wont (shouldnt) see steam and so it may not have use in my setup?
    @Steamhead - i was in fact wondering about the role of the boiler feed tank with respect to venting. is this standard for boilers with feed tanks? i do notice that there is a very small drip coming from the feed tank overflow pipe which tells me that im passing steam somewhere in the system but i cannot identify where.
    system pressure- im not sure what PSI i am running at , i will need to put a more precise gage to get a reading.
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,719
    rjm451 said:

    i must apologize for the delay , this was my first post and i wasnt receiving the notifications. thank you all for your input, this is very helpful to a novice such as myself.
    crossover(s): there are two traps in the near boiler piping- One is a trane #2 which is actually piped to a ceiling radiator in the adjacent room and the other ( a dunham bush) is just slightly downstream but tied into the other return lines . i have replaced the bellows with tunstall capsules on both.
    From everyone's comments it seems that where i installed the Gorton #2 may be correct (ontop of the dunham 640) , its just that it wont (shouldnt) see steam and so it may not have use in my setup?
    @Steamhead - i was in fact wondering about the role of the boiler feed tank with respect to venting. is this standard for boilers with feed tanks? i do notice that there is a very small drip coming from the feed tank overflow pipe which tells me that im passing steam somewhere in the system but i cannot identify where.
    system pressure- im not sure what PSI i am running at , i will need to put a more precise gage to get a reading.

    If that Trane trap is attached to a radiator, that's all it takes care of.

    We generally replace crossover traps with Barnes & Jones "Big Mouth" traps- these are the fastest ones out there. We just did two of these today, and they made a huge difference.

    How many steam mains on your system? What is the length and diameter of each?

    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • rjm451
    rjm451 Member Posts: 3
    i was remiss in my previous description of the trane trap . it is connected to the radiator however, the pipe is is connected back into the end of main return which goes into the feed tank. so the steam from the radiator is either returning to the tank as condensate or going through the trane trap and then through the wet return. the dunham bush is connected to the end of main return. i have included a picture of the traps below.
    your suggestion on using a larger trap on the crossover makes sense to me. i dont have enough experience with steam traps but i can say that after i replaced all of the trap internals in the house, the radiators with the trane traps are just about silent whereas i do occasionally hear hammer on the radiators with the dunham bush traps.
    on the mains- the mains are 4 inch pipe , reducing down to 3 inch in a couple areas (end of main ect) where there are no branches. i did a cursory measurement of horizontal mains in the basement , exclusive of anything going to the second floor and it was around 175 feet. i do know that at least a couple of the radiators on the second floor have traps feeding back to the main but i believe this only on one area of the house and the other upstairs radiator all have separate return lines.
    also, i want to thank you for all of your content and videos. i have been watching them for the last several years and they are what peaked my interest in steam.