Fresh Air Inlet styles...

Mad Dog_2

Mad Dog_2

I'm looking hard a nice one piece, close radii F.A.I. for my house.  Have to relocate original spot as we now have a deck back there....poo 💩 poo 💩 smell when you're having a BBQ is nasty!   I love the small one..I call it The Chubster...Mad Dog 🐕 

JUGHNE

Is that last picture a sewer vent next to a fresh air or combustion air inlet?

Mad Dog_2

Good catch! ...But their pizza 🍕 is Legendary!  Mad Dog 🐕 

ChrisJ

It's amazing with how strict NYC is, it's perfectly acceptable to have a poop vent right there at the ground.

Here in "this other state" we like them up on the roof.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Yeah, the roof is great unless it's next to a roof top unit with an economizer.

Steamhead

We don't have these in Baltimore- how does it tie into the sewer piping?

Mad Dog_2

It's actually a Superior system, Chris...More venting is NEVER a problem. Buildings without House traps?  Sorry,  that's HillBilly plumbing....Like Shark 🦈  bites and other Quickie DIYer favorites...ha ha...Frankie. The F.A.I. (fresh air inlet), must be tied in to the Building house drain within 4 feet (used to be 2 feet)  upstream of the House Trap and piped out to a point above grade. Just like an individual, back vent, or wet vent for a Fixture trap, its conducive to good flow and prevent vacuum from siphoning out the House Trap.  Mad Dog 🐕 

Mad Dog_2

Chris, do you think The early plumbing and sanitary engineers and plumbers who designed &  plumbed out all these huge American Cities, went by the seat of their pants 👖?   Hillbilly plumbing and heating may fly in moderately populated areas, but you're not getting away with short cuts and DIYer fixes  in one of the mostly densely populated Cities in The World. The Next time you look over at The NYC Skyline, think of the billions of miles of pipe in the Skyscrapers and all the piping infrastructure under the streets.  It is  an engineering marvel,with relatively few problems save, the occasional sewer back up (no baby wipes people!) And Con Ed Steam main the blows( 125 yrs old!  ) water main break...Yes they still find some working wooden mains downtown.  Mad Dog  🐕 

ChrisJ

Mad Dog_2 said:

It's actually a Superior system, Chris...More venting is NEVER a problem. Buildings without House traps?  Sorry,  that's HillBilly plumbing....Like Shark 🦈  bites and other Quickie DIYer favorites...ha ha...Frankie. The F.A.I. (fresh air inlet), must be tied in to the Building house drain within 4 feet (used to be 2 feet)  upstream of the House Trap and piped out to a point above grade. Just like an individual, back vent, or wet vent for a Fixture trap, its conducive to good flow and prevent vacuum from siphoning out the House Trap.  Mad Dog 🐕 

House traps are frowned upon in most areas.

They're a problem not a benefit.

hot_rod

If the building has a properly sized VTR, what purpose does the sidewalk vent add?

I also remember installing yard traps with my dad in NY, what we called dual hand-hold traps in the front yard.
Dual hand hold because that is how you carried the cast iron beasts

I also remember yards with toilet paper on the lawn when some sewers plugged and the vent cap was missing.

Also people mowed into them, kids dropping stuff down them when caps disappeared, etc.
So, so many buildings work fine without yard traps, and external air vents.

JUGHNE

So if you have a house with a 3-4" VTR and everything properly vented, then you have a house trap (running trap).

Must the outlet of the house trap have this outside air vent?

Doesn't it isolate the larger VTR from the outside sewer lateral which could be 100' or more (mine is 300' plus) and is carrying the total load of discharge to the main.

Then that discharge is vented by only a 2" pipe?

It seems like it contradicts the purpose of the VTR.

hot_rod

JUGHNE said:

So if you have a house with a 3-4" VTR and everything properly vented, then you have a house trap (running trap).

Must the outlet of the house trap have this outside air vent?

Doesn't it isolate the larger VTR from the outside sewer lateral which could be 100' or more (mine is 300' plus) and is carrying the total load of discharge to the main.

Then that discharge is vented by only a 2" pipe?

It seems like it contradicts the purpose of the VTR.

And doesn't it in essence double trap every fixture on the line?

ChrisJ

hot_rod said:

So if you have a house with a 3-4" VTR and everything properly vented, then you have a house trap (running trap). Must the outlet of the house trap have this outside air vent? Doesn't it isolate the larger VTR from the outside sewer lateral which could be 100' or more (mine is 300' plus) and is carrying the total load of discharge to the main. Then that discharge is vented by only a 2" pipe? It seems like it contradicts the purpose of the VTR.

And doesn't it in essence double trap every fixture on the line?

Yes

That's why so many places prohibit them now.

There's absolutely no reason to double trap everything and run toilet paper and solids through a trap.


@Charlie from wmassany house traps in Mass?

Charlie from wmass

House traps are for plumbers who can't properly vent and trap their plumbing. Yes the early plumbing was winging it. We know better now. Yes the dead men did many things wrong but as mature adults we can accept their short comings and know they did their best to maximize profits like every corporation before or since. Double traps work as well for sewers as the do for two pipe steam systems.

bburd

Ten years ago I lived in an 1862 townhouse in the Back Bay section of Boston. The house was divided into four condominiums. The first few floors were a high end unit with a fully finished basement, including carpeting and plenty of millwork.

The basement flooded with sewage. A camera inspection of the sewer lateral revealed a house trap under the back yard, clogged with tampon applicators.

They dug it up, eliminated the house trap and replaced the very old lateral with a new one.

ChrisJ

So.

The reason NYC requires house traps (do they still?) is because code hasn't been updated in 70 years?

Charlie from wmass

ChrisJ said:

So.

The reason NYC requires house traps (do they still?) is because code hasn't been updated in 70 years?

Yes 

EzzyT

The National Plumbing Code states that any area where the storm and sewer system is under a combined system then house traps are required for both storm and sewer. 

Charlie from wmass

And in Massachusetts your prohibited from having your storm water and your sewer water in the same system. The main reason being that when you have a storm you overwhelm your sewer treatment plants and they have to emergency dump raw sewage into wherever they would discharge the treated wastewater.

ChrisJ

Charlie from wmass said:

And in Massachusetts your prohibited from having your storm water and your sewer water in the same system. The main reason being that when you have a storm you overwhelm your sewer treatment plants and they have to emergency dump raw sewage into wherever they would discharge the treated wastewater.

Same here as far as I know.

Steamhead

ChrisJ said:

Same here as far as I know.

Does NYC still have a combined storm/sanitary sewer system?

bburd

San Francisco does. 

ChrisJ

Steamhead said:

Same here as far as I know.

Does NYC still have a combined storm/sanitary sewer system?

I thought about that..

But there's 5 different boroughs that all follow the same code and I find it hard to believe all 5 would share storm and sanitary. 

But I suppose anything is possible.

There's also the chance they don't all follow the same code.

Now I'm curious though, why are house traps required if sanitary and storm and shared? What's in that scenario that normal traps do no cover?

Solid_Fuel_Man

So many extra places for rats to get in!!! Right at ground level too....

ChrisJ

Solid_Fuel_Man said:

So many extra places for rats to get in!!! Right at ground level too....

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

Yes, storm and sewer both get treated here in SF. 

But you have to keep them separate until they get to the sidewalk where you must combine them. 

So, if you have a patio drain, it has to be trapped and vented just like a floor drain. 

And you have to use cast iron or copper for all your DWV and rainwater unless you live in a 1 or 2 story building which there aren’t that many of in SF. 

And no house traps here in Baghdad by the Bay. I guess that makes us Hillbillies, huh @Mad Dog_2?

GGross

California so yall are Beverly Hillbillies

Mad Dog_2

Chris..Before you go off half cocked, the NYC was upgraded in 2020. It is ICC based but stricter in some regards.  Yes, most of the 5 Boros (All follow one code) are combined.  Where feasibile, DEP has installed Storm Only Sewers to take load of of the Treatment plants.  Long Island 🏝 has Sumps (water recharge basins) with separate storm and sanitary. 

House traps are important as they  serve as a Separation of the building DWV and the street.  What problems do they cause? Can you elaborate?   House traps are a deterrent to rats 🐀 traveling in to your pipes. They will swim and navigate through toilets and house traps but take the path of least resistance when possible. Why make it easier on them?  The House trap also prevents harmful gases AND in some documented cases, (look it up), Gasoline vapors from an overturned tanker in the street. Last, Like any other trap, you need a vent just upstream of it otherwise you risk siphoning out the trap.  I'll put NYC plumbing code up against ANY large city in the World. We have one if the most condensed population in a small area.  This was well thought out by The Deadmen and great Old Time plumbers. I'll  debate wet venting, circuit venting, loop venting, backventing, common venting, Unit venting,, combination waste & vent, et al.... ad naseum..Individual venting of each fixture is still the undisputed champ.  Most other venting are attempts at cutting costs which is fine, they work, but Individual venting can't be beat. NYC...we got this under control!  Mad Dog 

ChrisJ

Mad Dog_2 said:

Chris..Before you go off half cocked, the NYC was upgraded in 2020. It is ICC based but stricter in some regards.  Yes, most of the 5 Boros (All follow one code) are combined.  Where feasibile, DEP has installed Storm Only Sewers to take load of of the Treatment plants.  Long Island 🏝 has Sumps (water recharge basins) with separate storm and sanitary. 

House traps are important as they  serve as a Separation of the building DWV and the street.  What problems do they cause? Can you elaborate?   House traps are a deterrent to rats 🐀 traveling in to your pipes. They will swim and navigate through toilets and house traps but take the path of least resistance when possible. Why make it easier on them?  The House trap also prevents harmful gases AND in some documented cases, (look it up), Gasoline vapors from an overturned tanker in the street. Last, Like any other trap, you need a vent just upstream of it otherwise you risk siphoning out the trap.  I'll put NYC plumbing code up against ANY large city in the World. We have one if the most condensed population in a small area.  This was well thought out by The Deadmen and great Old Time plumbers. I'll  debate wet venting, circuit venting, loop venting, backventing, common venting, Unit venting,, combination waste & vent, et al.... ad naseum..Individual venting of each fixture is still the undisputed champ.  Most other venting are attempts at cutting costs which is fine, they work, but Individual venting can't be beat. NYC...we got this under control!  Mad Dog 

Apparently they are known to clog easily from toilets. Or rather.... easier than if it doesn't exist. I don't know about you, but I don't go out of my way to increase chances of a headache for no reason.

Yes, we all know tampons don't belong down the toilet, but people do it constantly, and they tend to be more likely to clog a house trap than if it's not there.

I've never been in a building that had a house trap, except apparently my grandfather's house when I was young, and that was on a septic. When the town put sewers in they ripped the house trap out in the late 1980s.


Why would an overturned tanker in the street cause an issue for me? All of my fixtures are trapped? Why would I need a house trap?

ChrisJ

@Mad Dog_2 If your response to every serious comment I post is going to be "LOL" then you can continue such discussions by your self my friend.

Mad Dog_2

Thats your proof to eliminate House traps?au Contrare! Better they got "caught" i.e , trapped than got in to the street sewer, where they could cause back  ups to the whole block, No?  Atleast w a building house trap, its OBVIOUS who put un flushable items like baby wipes and tampons down the toilet 🚻    Mad Dog 

dko

Mad Dog_2 said:

Thats your proof to eliminate House traps?au Contrare! Better they got "caught" i.e , trapped than got in to the street sewer, where they could cause back  ups to the whole block, No?  Atleast w a building house trap, its OBVIOUS who put un flushable items like baby wipes and tampons down the toilet 🚻    Mad Dog 

You're not wrong.. NYC being the most populated city in the USA by a large margin.. they opted to mandate the house trap instead of prohibiting it like NYS and the rest of the states. Imagine no one had house traps that clogged in NYC!

But if you snake it.. you just push the majority of it through anyway. So doubt that's really the reason.

Mad Dog_2

Great point 
DKO   I ve toured Wards Island & Newtown creek..Their main job is raking out tampons & baby wipes.  Too many make it through  but why not try to stop them. ? Mad Dog 

Mad Dog_2

Do you think highly flammable gasoline ⛽ vapors  have a place inside your building? 
What if you have a dried out trap in that basement floor drain you never use? What if you have a rotted out vent in the wall? Traps stop gases from entering living space.. one that protects the entire building is belt & suspenders...mad dog 🐕 

Mad Dog_2

Mad Dog_2

"Improved Brooklyn Return Bend"   I wonder who made this?  I like this sleek look and compact profile.  Mad Dog 🐕 

Danny Scully

What about a mushroom cap @Mad Dog_2 ?

Also worth noting if it hasn’t been already, it’s a fresh air INLET…it’s not technically a vent.

ChrisJ

Danny Scully said:

What about a mushroom cap @Mad Dog_2 ?

Also worth noting if it hasn’t been already, it’s a fresh air INLET…it’s not technically a vent.

Most vents are technically there to break a siphon and keep traps from being sucked dry.   No?


Carburetor bowl vents let air in.  So do gas can vents etc.  

Danny Scully

@ChrisJ, most vents are after the trap for that purpose, not before them. It’s meant to allow positive draft in the plumbing system up through the roof. The deep seal of the house trap prevents siphoning. 

ChrisJ

Danny Scully said:

@ChrisJ, most vents are after the trap for that purpose, not before them. It’s meant to allow positive draft in the plumbing system up through the roof. The deep seal of the house trap prevents siphoning. 

Interesting.

So this is on the house side of the house trap not the sewer side?

How do they vent the public sewers?