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Two tanks two oil burners

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Bigfoot271__
Bigfoot271__ Member Posts: 1
Hello, I have a problem I need help with. Here it goes. I ran out of oil the other day. I have two tanks and two oil burners. I bled and started the main boiler with no problems. I tried to bleed and start the other boiler to no avail.
So I began to diagnose I blew out the line. Nothing changed the oil filter Nothing found a bad check valve changed it and nothing. Changed the oil pump still nothing. Changed the whole fuel line and nothing. I'm not getting fuel to the burner. But the other burner is running fine. It runs off the same line split in two with two oil filters and cups. I'm lost.....help..

Comments

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,634
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    is this gravity feed or is it lifting oil? oil level in tank above or below burner pump? Posting some pictures might help.

    The burner that will not run may have a bad pump or more likely a pump coupling so the motor may run without driving the pump.

    Since you mentioned a check valve I suspect you are lifting oil out of the tanks. In some instances the burner with the stronger pump gets the oil.

    Post Pictures

    need more info to help
  • Big Ed_4
    Big Ed_4 Member Posts: 2,807
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    Get rid of the check valves , they do nothing but add problems .

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

    HVACNUTleonz
  • leonz
    leonz Member Posts: 1,160
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    If it was me:

    I would be drawing from the top of both tanks with no check valves with the de-aerator to each burner and a return from each burner back to the individual tank as it sounds like a stuck check valve at first glance.

    STEVEusaPAEdTheHeaterManSuperTech
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 6,505
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    leonz said:

    If it was me:

    I would be drawing from the top of both tanks with no check valves with the de-aerator to each burner and a return from each burner back to the individual tank as it sounds like a stuck check valve at first glance.

    Wrong. If you are using deaerators, you wouldn’t use returns back to oil tank.

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

    EdTheHeaterMan
  • leonz
    leonz Member Posts: 1,160
    edited June 2023
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    I was told I could not successfully use a tigerloop since my fuel line was a top draw with over a 25 foot distance to the burner so it would be worth it for me to push oil from the burner back to the tank with a new burner when I use oil as the burner I have now is 30 plus years old and parts are no longer available according to Riello.
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 8,123
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    Hello, I have a problem I need help with. Here it goes. I ran out of oil the other day. I have two tanks and two oil burners. I bled and started the main boiler with no problems. I tried to bleed and start the other boiler to no avail.
    So I began to diagnose I blew out the line. Nothing changed the oil filter Nothing found a bad check valve changed it and nothing. Changed the oil pump still nothing. Changed the whole fuel line and nothing. I'm not getting fuel to the burner. But the other burner is running fine. It runs off the same line split in two with two oil filters and cups. I'm lost.....help..

    I see no mention of an oil burner coupling in the steps taken to solve this problem. However, I don't see how you could have missed the failed coupling when changing the fuel pump. But I have seen some strange things done by the apprentice mechanics that I have taught a thing or two.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • leonz
    leonz Member Posts: 1,160
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    About being wrong;

    I see nothing wrong in doing this with a new oil burner as I use a RACOR 500FG fuel filter with a cyclone fuel sedimentation system with a 10 micron filter due to past issues with water in the fuel.

    I probably should be using 2 micron filtration as the filter can process 50 gallons per minute which is
    well within any home heating system burners pump capacity.
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 6,505
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    leonz said:

    About being wrong;

    I see nothing wrong in doing this with a new oil burner as I use a RACOR 500FG fuel filter with a cyclone fuel sedimentation system with a 10 micron filter due to past issues with water in the fuel.

    I probably should be using 2 micron filtration as the filter can process 50 gallons per minute which is
    well within any home heating system burners pump capacity.

    Show me a diagram where you run a supply line to an oil deaerator, to the fuel pump on the burner, and return from the fuel pump to the oil tank. It's completely wrong.
    You really need to stop commenting on things (again) you know nothing about.

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

  • leonz
    leonz Member Posts: 1,160
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    The fueling principle for an oil burner is no different than the fuel delivery system
    of an indirect injection diesel engine other than employing a continuous firing system
    so I do know a great deal about fuel pumps.
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 6,505
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    leonz said:

    The fueling principle for an oil burner is no different than the fuel delivery system
    of an indirect injection diesel engine other than employing a continuous firing system
    so I do know a great deal about fuel pumps.

    Yet you're wrong about this. Show me a diagram.

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

    HVACNUT
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 5,865
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    leonz said:
    The fueling principle for an oil burner is no different than the fuel delivery system of an indirect injection diesel engine other than employing a continuous firing system so I do know a great deal about fuel pumps.
    You're utilizing 2 Tiger Loops and a common return back to the tank? What kind of...?
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 8,123
    edited June 2023
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    leonz said:

    I was told I could not successfully use a tigerloop since my fuel line was a top draw with over a 25 foot distance to the burner so it would be worth it for me to push oil from the burner back to the tank with a new burner when I use oil as the burner I have now is 30 plus years old and parts are no longer available according to Riello.

    Perhaps you were told this because of your understanding of the world in general! There are a lot of people that can not do stuff so they hire professionals that CAN DO the stuff that is needed.

    I have experience on installing hundreds of tiger loops and find that a top feed fuel line that extends to within a few inches from the bottom of the tank, is one of the best uses for a tiger loop. I have used them with 25 feet of fuel line from the tank to the burner. I have used them over 60 feet from the tank to the burner. I'm wondering who might have told you this false information. Were they uninformed or did they know their audience and made the choice to let it go by the wayside?

    I tend to agree with @HVACNUT on this point. @Bigfoot271__ should disregard any information that @leonz might offer on this one topic.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • Big Ed_4
    Big Ed_4 Member Posts: 2,807
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    Any diesel mechanic would love a tiger loop for a truck .. The return is piped back to the tiger loop if used . Single supply from the tank to tiger loop . ..

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

    EdTheHeaterMan
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 8,123
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    Big Ed_4 said:

    Any diesel mechanic would love a tiger loop for a truck .. The return is piped back to the tiger loop if used . Single supply from the tank to tiger loop . ..


    AGREE


    If they could only put up with all the shaking and bumping.!

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • leonz
    leonz Member Posts: 1,160
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    leonz said:

    I was told I could not successfully use a tigerloop since my fuel line was a top draw with over a 25 foot distance to the burner so it would be worth it for me to push oil from the burner back to the tank with a new burner when I use oil as the burner I have now is 30 plus years old and parts are no longer available according to Riello.

    Perhaps you were told this because of your understanding of the world in general! There are a lot of people that can not do stuff so they hire professionals that CAN DO the stuff that is needed.

    I have experience on installing hundreds of tiger loops and find that a top feed fuel line that extends to within a few inches from the bottom of the tank, is one of the best uses for a tiger loop. I have used them with 25 feet of fuel line from the tank to the burner. I have used them over 60 feet from the tank to the burner. I'm wondering who might have told you this false information. Were they uninformed or did they know their audience and made the choice to let it go by the wayside?

    I tend to agree with @HVACNUT on this point. @Bigfoot271__ should disregard any information that @leonz might offer on this one topic.

    =================================================================

    I don't think that is necessary to be insulting I have never done this on the forum to any member.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    OK, so why would the tiger loop people THEMSELVES tell me 6 years ago a tiger loop with a top draw would not work for my situation where the single pipe system distance from the tank to the burner was over 25 feet long with a top draw and would follow the ceiling to the drop point to connect with the oil burner????????????????????????????



  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 8,123
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    @leonz, I can't answer that. I have installed exactly what you described... and it is still working 25 years later.
    I believe you may have mis-spoke about using a tiger loop and a return line back to the tank. You use one or the other NOT BOTH. Are you speaking with authority and experience of the Caliber of @HVACNUT or Myself who have installed more than just the one on my own home?

    Please yield to the experience of those who have it. I'm never gonna tell you how to repair or maintain a Diesel engine. As a young man, I spent 4 summers in the mechanic shop at the trucking business. I lube and oil changed over 40 different company vehicles. I made repairs on wiper motors door handles, replaced breaks, wheel cylinders and master cylinders. But I was never ASE certified and would not think of putting my opinion of automotive repairs over and above someone that is.

    Once I was old enough for a drivers license, then I became part of the income employees. Driving fuel delivery trucks, making house calls to repair burners. I was on the production line so to speak. Does that make me forget the automotive experience I had? Not at all. But I yield to the masters.

    If you were insulted, then perhaps you have a little more upstairs than one might expect. But you are wrong on the tiger loop. And I can not tolerate giving incorrect information to those that ask for help herein. I stand by my comment that the OP should not follow your advise.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,634
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    @EdTheHeaterMan

    I mentioned the pump coupling in my first post.

    if this was my job i would use a suction line to each burner and either two returns or a common return and forget the TL, but i know that's not popular
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 8,123
    edited June 2023
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    @EBEBRATT-Ed
    The original tank plumbing worked with the old burner. I wonder why the new burner needed the change? Was the old burner REALLY OLD with a J pump or H pump? The new burner would have a A2VA - **** or something like that. Perhaps a B2YA **** would then be in order. There are no plug and play oil burners. Combustion test and maybe a 2 stage pump upgrade from time to time.

    Kids these days! I teach them everything I know... and they still don't know nothin'

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    MikeAmann
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 4,895
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    leonz said:
    I was told I could not successfully use a tigerloop since my fuel line was a top draw with over a 25 foot distance to the burner so it would be worth it for me to push oil from the burner back to the tank with a new burner when I use oil as the burner I have now is 30 plus years old and parts are no longer available according to Riello.
    Perhaps you were told this because of your understanding of the world in general! There are a lot of people that can not do stuff so they hire professionals that CAN DO the stuff that is needed. I have experience on installing hundreds of tiger loops and find that a top feed fuel line that extends to within a few inches from the bottom of the tank, is one of the best uses for a tiger loop. I have used them with 25 feet of fuel line from the tank to the burner. I have used them over 60 feet from the tank to the burner. I'm wondering who might have told you this false information. Were they uninformed or did they know their audience and made the choice to let it go by the wayside? I tend to agree with @HVACNUT on this point. @Bigfoot271__ should disregard any information that @leonz might offer on this one topic.
    ================================================================= I don't think that is necessary to be insulting I have never done this on the forum to any member. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ OK, so why would the tiger loop people THEMSELVES tell me 6 years ago a tiger loop with a top draw would not work for my situation where the single pipe system distance from the tank to the burner was over 25 feet long with a top draw and would follow the ceiling to the drop point to connect with the oil burner????????????????????????????
    Because they
    dont know
    dont like the tiger loop
    Any # of reasons!
  • Big Ed_4
    Big Ed_4 Member Posts: 2,807
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    Tiger loops are good for our non perfect world. They put the job to bed .. Too many things prevent us to make it perfect ..

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

  • bidenntrumpp
    bidenntrumpp Member Posts: 1
    edited October 2023
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    I probably should be using 2 micron filtration as the filter can process 50 gallons per minute which is
    well within any home heating system burners pump capacity. waplus.win
    projectfreetv.onl
  • Big Ed_4
    Big Ed_4 Member Posts: 2,807
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    I like to instal a general filter at the tank and a spin on filter at the burner with a vacuum gauge on the spin on .

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

    MikeAmannSuperTech
  • Grallert
    Grallert Member Posts: 665
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    I'm going with a stripped out coupling. Looks good often as the damage is interior at the facets or splines
    Miss Hall's School service mechanic, greenhouse manager,teacher and dog walker
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 5,865
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    domidunas said:
    I probably should be using 2 micron filtration as the filter can process 50 gallons per minute which is well within any home heating system burners pump capacity.
    Why did you copy and paste a post from last June?
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,634
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    How in hell did oil burners even run before Tiger Loops were invented. It must have been impossible to keep burners running.
    CLamb
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 8,123
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    How in hell did oil burners even run before Tiger Loops were invented. It must have been impossible to keep burners running.

    I remember in olden times before tiger loop (BTL) we used to actually learn how to flare the end of copper tubes so they didn't leak. but the copper tubing didn't contain Chinesuim (new element of the periodic table) that makes copper tubing split when flaring tools are applied.

    As the world changes, so do the ways of the world.

    Which reminds me that I should order a BLT for lunch tomorrow

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,634
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    @EdTheHeaterMan

    " I remember in olden times before tiger loop (BTL) we used to actually learn how to flare the end of copper tubes so they didn't leak. but the copper tubing didn't contain Chinesuim (new element of the periodic table) that makes copper tubing split when flaring tools are applied."

    I agree. Many times it was old tubing where you were changing a burner the old tubing having been work hardened would split. The trick was to disconnect it from the tank and heat it with a torch to anneal the tubing...........but by the time you tried to flare and cut it 2 or 3 times you would probably get a flare that was ok.

    I flared so much tubing my hands would bleed. B4 mini splits oil guys flared much more tubing than ac & refrigeration guys. One of the old books I used to have said "there is no substitute for a tight suction line"

    The other thing I just don't get is the aversion to two pipe systems. Everyone talks about "leaking return lines". I would like to know from the experienced oil guys exactly how many have had jobs with leaking return lines. Just where did this edict come from?
    Single overhead lines to me are much more problematic than leaking return lines.

    Bill Axman who used to teach at the school I went to and went on to be President (I think) of the American Boiler Manufacturers Association used to write for one of the trade magazines said" The reason for a lot of oil burners that won't run is "the oil isn't getting from the tank to the burner properly"

    This is often ignored and is as true today as it ever was
    Big Ed_4
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 8,123
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    @EdTheHeaterMan

    " I remember in olden times before tiger loop (BTL) we used to actually learn how to flare the end of copper tubes so they didn't leak. but the copper tubing didn't contain Chinesuim (new element of the periodic table) that makes copper tubing split when flaring tools are applied."

    I agree. Many times it was old tubing where you were changing a burner the old tubing having been work hardened would split. The trick was to disconnect it from the tank and heat it with a torch to anneal the tubing...........but by the time you tried to flare and cut it 2 or 3 times you would probably get a flare that was ok.

    I flared so much tubing my hands would bleed. B4 mini splits oil guys flared much more tubing than ac & refrigeration guys. One of the old books I used to have said "there is no substitute for a tight suction line"

    The other thing I just don't get is the aversion to two pipe systems. Everyone talks about "leaking return lines". I would like to know from the experienced oil guys exactly how many have had jobs with leaking return lines. Just where did this edict come from?
    Single overhead lines to me are much more problematic than leaking return lines.

    Bill Axman who used to teach at the school I went to and went on to be President (I think) of the American Boiler Manufacturers Association used to write for one of the trade magazines said" The reason for a lot of oil burners that won't run is "the oil isn't getting from the tank to the burner properly"

    This is often ignored and is as true today as it ever was

    Preaching to the Choir Ed. There are very few fuel line problems that can not be addressed by a properly flared copper tube, and a basement tank.

    I do like the Tiger loop for one reason that became apparent one freezing cold night when a fuel dealer (one truck dealer) who gave away a used oil tank the previous summer to secure a new oil customer, called me one 12° evening to help him out. He was able to get the burner operating by pressing the reset button, however the 2 pipe fuel line from the outside tank entered the basement and it looked like a high pressure refrig. line low on freon... The condensation from the very cold basement was icing on the outside of the much colder supply pipe from the tank. The burner ran for about 8 minutes then you heard the whining of the pump gears from excessive vacuum. Then the flame went out and in 45 seconds the reset button tripped the burner off.

    Two things were happening.
    1. The cold oil from the tank was getting fed into the nozzle causing poor combustion
    2. The more viscous oil from the lower temperature storage had trouble going at a rate of 20 GPM into the fuel pump only to send 19.25 GPM back to the tank to get cold. Eventually the Tank Bottom Deposits and the fuel with no additives would become so viscous that 20 GPM would not fit in that 3/8" OD fuel line.

    It took some convincing to get the homeowner to understand that a tiger loop would solve the problem. (and they are not free from me) I happened to have 2 of them on my truck, and within 45 Minutes there was heat. The supply line from the tank did not have frost on it anymore because the fuel was moving at .75 GPM to the tiger loop instead of 20 GPM... so it had time to warm up at that lower flow rate.

    Because of the lower flow rate, the 3/8" OD fuel line was more than adequate for the more viscous fuel to get to the burner. The 1/2 Cup reservoir of fuel in the TL was close to the burner so it was much warmer when it reached the nozzle.

    Before the TL was invented,c the fix would have been to put 2 jerry cans in basement near the burner and run the burner from the temporary fuel cans until the weather got back to normal low temperature of 30° with highs in the upper 40°s than come back and put the tank back to normal. If the customer was so inclined we could set up a small preheater tank near the burner fed by the outside tank. That was too pricey so that rarely was done. But all the flares would have been leak proof. !!!

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    MaxMercy
  • Big Ed_4
    Big Ed_4 Member Posts: 2,807
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    I agree they work. No problems but some times you have to seal the vent to get it to prime , not that often . Does anyone know the reason ?

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,634
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    @EdTheHeaterMan understand the cold oil issue. I guess that is one thing they are good for.
    EdTheHeaterMan
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 8,123
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    Big Ed_4 said:

    I agree they work. No problems but some times you have to seal the vent to get it to prime , not that often . Does anyone know the reason ?

    There are some needle valves inside that TL. much like a carborator on an old Fords and Chevys I worked on as a kid. The path of the fuel when the TL was dry would be from the tank to the TL to the fuel pump suction. with all the TL valves in proper place the pump suction goes directly to the tank.

    If however one of the valves is not closed 100%, then the float chamber air may allow the pump suction to escape to that empty chamber. By blocking the vent, you are cutting off the source of air to the pump vacuum. Once the float chamber gets wet with oil, all the sticky valve problems go away and the valves all work as intended.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?