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Poor plumbing installation in an expensive bathroom 🚻

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  • Alan (California Radiant) Forbes
    Alan (California Radiant) Forbes Member Posts: 4,103
    edited June 2023
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    Looks like the wax ring wasn't even compressed. Closet bolts are rusty; I like all brass with stainless steel washers.

    At least they double nutted the bolts.

    The supply riser looks nice.
    8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour

    Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 9,944
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    not sure that is a nice bathroom. looks like someone slapped some stuff from home depot on top of what was probably a better bathroom
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 7,241
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    The Homeowner spent 45 K on this bathroom 3 yrs ago.  He hired The G.C. because he said he didn't have to call in any other trades...he would take care of it....he was a Master of all!   The Tile work is excellent, Georgeous Vanity and shower.  The complaint was sewer flies and dampness im front of toilet base.  When I pulled bowl & looked down closet bend, I saw water looking back at me...and a pipe plug.  They used a Tee Wye w a plug instead of an elbow sweep...cute...also, roughed the flange below grade and the wax ring was never "kissed" by the Toilet Horn..underneath the bowl was nasty....was able to rework and reset.  Should be good.  Mad Dog 🐕 
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 9,944
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    so they put in a new flange and set it too low, they didn't just build up tile next to the existing flange? i'm not sure i'd count on the integrity of that tile...
    Mad Dog_2
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 9,944
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    i was eating something as i just scrolled back up and saw that little moat around the flange
    Mad Dog_2
  • realliveplumber
    realliveplumber Member Posts: 354
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    I can smell that from here....
    Mad Dog_2
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,915
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    It's ok though Mad.

    He used a copper riser tube.   :D
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    mattmia2Mad Dog_2
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 7,241
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    Oh no he didn't....it HAD  a SS Flex (a higher quality one) but I "disappeared' it.....you won't see him no more...The HO wanted it for an emergency.  The only thing that annoys me is that they put a sticker on the Upper end near the cone top and it leaves mess on the finished chrome.   Its all nice, smooth and shiny except for that area. If I had denatured alcohol (I love the smell of  that!) It usually removes the sticky residue.  Yeah...it was a black, Stink puddle under there...a breeding sanctuary for sewer flies. I napalmed it with Isopropyl alcohol, to kill all the flies and Biohazardous swill first, sucked it out dry and, then I filled that void  with a whole bucket of "Yeso de paris!!! (plaster of paris)/grout combo.  If it ever rears its ugly head again,  we're saw cutting and doing an amputation of the closet bend-Sanitary tee & raising the flange.  Mad Dog 🐕 
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 7,241
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    I actually needed a nice brass or even plastic Tank nut for that speedy, so I stopped in a very good plumbing supply...After a 15 minute search,, They had neither.  I was ready to rob it from a new ballbock box I had, but I knew I had a full jar Back in the barn.  Job was 3 minutes away...took a ride.  Mad Dog 🐕 
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 9,944
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    Mad Dog_2 said:

    The only thing that annoys me is that they put a sticker on the Upper end near the cone top and it leaves mess on the finished chrome.   Its all nice, smooth and shiny except for that area. If I had denatured alcohol (I love the smell of  that!) It usually removes the sticky residue.

    Paint thinner will take that off.
    Mad Dog_2
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,915
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    mattmia2 said:

    Mad Dog_2 said:

    The only thing that annoys me is that they put a sticker on the Upper end near the cone top and it leaves mess on the finished chrome.   Its all nice, smooth and shiny except for that area. If I had denatured alcohol (I love the smell of  that!) It usually removes the sticky residue.

    Paint thinner will take that off.
    Or WD40.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    Mad Dog_2
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 9,944
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    ChrisJ said:

    mattmia2 said:

    Mad Dog_2 said:

    The only thing that annoys me is that they put a sticker on the Upper end near the cone top and it leaves mess on the finished chrome.   Its all nice, smooth and shiny except for that area. If I had denatured alcohol (I love the smell of  that!) It usually removes the sticky residue.

    Paint thinner will take that off.
    Or WD40.
    Then paint thinner to take the wd40 off. But coating with oil is good to get dried out adhesive off. Vegetable oil or shortening works too.
    Mad Dog_2
  • MikeL_2
    MikeL_2 Member Posts: 506
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       I find it interesting that most diyers and some inexperienced contractors don't understand that a bowl gasket isn't meant to get wet -  a bowl gasket can get wet when there is a blockage & backup in the connected soil pipe below the toilet. 
       Fine Homebuilding magazine published an article titled " Trouble free toilets "  several years ago. It's a short read that I steer my customers to so they'll understand why I insist on a more costly permanent repair for a low flange & spongy underlayment.
          I've seen many hundreds of stacked bowl waxes under toilets that create some nasty hidden damage. Stacked waxes  make it difficult to provide & maintain sanitation.

    Mad Dog_2
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 7,241
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    I tend to agree, but ya give it one good shot...it happens again, were sawcutting and chopping the new tile up. If the flange were a little lower than that, you/they got a problem.  I still can't get over the fact this guy used a Sanitary tee..... Mad Dog
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 9,944
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    Isn't there an extension flange that stacks on top of the existing flange?
    Mad Dog_2
  • MikeL_2
    MikeL_2 Member Posts: 506
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    mattmia2 said:
    Isn't there an extension flange that stacks on top of the existing flange?
      Yes there are. And sometimes they can be used to make a reliable repair.
    Mad Dog_2
  • FStephenMasek
    FStephenMasek Member Posts: 88
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    The new no-wax rings are mighty handy. Wax rings tend to fail if you move the toilet after putting it down (typically to get it centered/straight left to right).
    Author of Illustrated Practical Asbestos: For Consultants, Contractors, Property Managers & Regulators
    Mad Dog_2ethicalpaul
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 7,241
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    There are some great repair products,but this wasn't that bad.  Stephen...tell me about these waxless rings. I've used Wax-impregnated FELT gaskets, especially for Backoutlet bowls.  Repairing an old lead bend with 50/50 bar solder is fun..Mad Dog 🐕 
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 7,241
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    Rubber!   Just like urinal and Chair carrier gaskets....cool...Mad Dog 🐕 
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 5,792
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    The new no-wax rings are mighty handy. Wax rings tend to fail if you move the toilet after putting it down (typically to get it centered/straight left to right).

    I have used these in my home because of this very reason--they seem to (my untrained self) to solve this issue and work well...

    so therefore I assumed that actual plumbers must hate them. Is that the case, or do plumbers think they are good?

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

    Mad Dog_2
  • MikeL_2
    MikeL_2 Member Posts: 506
    edited June 2023
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    The new no-wax rings are mighty handy. Wax rings tend to fail if you move the toilet after putting it down (typically to get it centered/straight left to right).
    I have used these in my home because of this very reason--they seem to (my untrained self) to solve this issue and work well... so therefore I assumed that actual plumbers must hate them. Is that the case, or do plumbers think they are good?
        I'm old-fashioned in some ways, & stuck at a few crossroads. 
        I don't use csst,  won't use shark bites, still solder copper, and don't like pvc for venting flue gasses.
          I do use pex, and will use a flexible bowl gasket, mostly during bathroom remodels when a toilet has to be set & reset.
    ethicalpaulMad Dog_2
  • Alan (California Radiant) Forbes
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    I remember pulling toilets sealed with "Bowl Setting Compound". It was like a linseed based plumbers putty.
    8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour

    Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab
    Mad Dog_2MikeL_2
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 7,241
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    There comes a time, when you don't have much  choice, its 10 pm...they need a toilet or heat and you do what u gotta do..If something is  iffy, I'll go back and do the proper repair the next day.  Never left a Fernco coupling on permanently...just can't do it...Mad Dog  🐕 🤣 
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,915
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    Mad Dog_2 said:

    There comes a time, when you don't have much  choice, its 10 pm...they need a toilet or heat and you do what u gotta do..If something is  iffy, I'll go back and do the proper repair the next day.  Never left a Fernco coupling on permanently...just can't do it...Mad Dog  🐕 🤣 


    How else would you connect PVC to cast iron?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 9,944
    edited June 2023
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    ChrisJ said:

    Mad Dog_2 said:

    There comes a time, when you don't have much  choice, its 10 pm...they need a toilet or heat and you do what u gotta do..If something is  iffy, I'll go back and do the proper repair the next day.  Never left a Fernco coupling on permanently...just can't do it...Mad Dog  🐕 🤣 


    How else would you connect PVC to cast iron?
    caulk it with lead and oakum.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,915
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    mattmia2 said:

    ChrisJ said:

    Mad Dog_2 said:

    There comes a time, when you don't have much  choice, its 10 pm...they need a toilet or heat and you do what u gotta do..If something is  iffy, I'll go back and do the proper repair the next day.  Never left a Fernco coupling on permanently...just can't do it...Mad Dog  🐕 🤣 


    How else would you connect PVC to cast iron?
    caulk it with lead and oakum.
    Lead against pvc?

    I would trust a shielded coupling more my self.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    ethicalpaulMad Dog_2
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 7,241
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    No-Hub Coupling...has the full shield a Fernco is rubber with two large Hose clamps...not Rat proof...Mad Dog 🐕 
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,750
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    Mad Dog_2 said:

    No-Hub Coupling...has the full shield a Fernco is rubber with two large Hose clamps...not Rat proof...Mad Dog 🐕 

    Not all of them.

    https://www.fernco.com/products/shielded-couplings
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
    ethicalpaulMad Dog_2
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,915
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    Mad Dog_2 said:

    No-Hub Coupling...has the full shield a Fernco is rubber with two large Hose clamps...not Rat proof...Mad Dog 🐕 

    I had a feeling that's what you meant after thinking about it for a bit.

    So something like this.


    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 7,241
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    From Top to bottom:  Here in the "Big City,"
    We call em the following 

    - A Fernco
    - A Husky 4 bands (Legal underground) 
    - A Clamp All ( Full Shield higher torque)
    - a No Hub Coupling 
    - A Mission Clamp (Full shield, reg torque
       High quality clamp for reduction in pipe size.  They make all different sizes...

    Mad Dog 🐕 
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 7,241
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    Fernco Brand makes all kinds of products.  Mad Dog  🐕 
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 9,944
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    I definitely didn't use a double clamp under ground, but i did pour concrete around the joint between the pvc and the orangeburg to hold everything together and keep it from distorting .
    Mad Dog_2
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 7,241
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    Before Huskies came out, we occasionally used No Hubs and PVC underground for a repair or if the folks couldn't afford Service Weight or MG Couplings.  Mad Dog  🐕 
  • Larry Weingarten
    Larry Weingarten Member Posts: 3,387
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    This may be why @Mad Dog_2 doesn't like this sort of coupling ;)

    Yours, Larry
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 7,241
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    Thanks Larry...yep...seen em chewed right through in the Housing project crawl spaces.  They are great for a temp fix.  Huskies are much stronger but I've still seen them blow apart with 4 stories of W.C. test on em...I watched a 12" Coupling creep apart over 30 seconds...Man that was alot of water!  Mad Dog 🐕 
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 11,104
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    Orangeburg! is there much of that still out there?

    It was used here maybe in the 50-60's until PVC came along.

    IIUC, modern detergents would wash the oil out of the Orangeburg, leaving only the "paper" fiber.
    Then here come the roots and the weight of the earth compaction.

    The earliest PVC was thin wall and would perhaps split open under compression of bury or the tree roots would again attack.

    The early solvent/glue was, unknowingly, not used correctly and the couplings would have gaps for tree micro roots which would then grow to branch size roots inside the pipe as they were well fed.

    None of this compared to the clay tile we had installed in the 1930's WPA project for the entire town.
    The pipe material was pretty invincible but the joint system lacked a lot....cemented spigots into the hubs, maybe every 30 inches. The cemented/tar eventually dried up and fell out.

    Again, I used to look at these installations and criticize the installers for being short sighted in their work.
    But, they had no previous experience of UG sewer pipes and how much tree roots were attracted.

    They were pioneers in the field and people were so grateful to not leave the house in a blizzard to sit over an open pit....and freeze their parts off.