Combining baseboard and in-floor temperature issue

Mad Dog_2

I even offered to mediate this.  War of attrition...see who can hold out the longest...Mad Dog 🐕 

EdTheHeaterMan

I would start with the certified letter route at this time. This will show that you want the system to work properly. The most convincing argument is the hardwood floor problem. Do you have any hardwood flooring that is above that tubing that is getting too hot? If not then tell us more about your system.

EdTheHeaterMan

So in your certified letter you should include this diagram of your "As Built" system at a particular point in time (that seems to happens more often than not!)

Consider this point in time.



1. One or two of the baseboard zones are calling for heat and have been operating for some time.
2. Both radiant zones are not calling for heat.
3. The return to the boiler is above 150° (in the diagram I made the standard 20°∆T assumption).
4. Then there is a call for heat from one or both of the low temperature zones.
5. The inlet to the HOT side of the mix valve will be 180°F.
6. The inlet to the COLD side of the mix valve will be 160° F.
7. The MIX outlet temperature can not be higher than 120° F.
See if the installer can tell you how this can work

EdTheHeaterMan

Then you can include this as a possibility for the repipe that will be at the minimum amount of work for the installer to make it work properly. But you are open to any other suggestions that will solve the over temperature condition



You can also include this photo with these minimum changes illustrated.

If the installer can not at least take the time to look at a certified letter and see that you are providing them with a simple solution, then you need to contact a lawyer and get your money back to cover the cost of making it right plus attorney's cost.

A letter to the licensing board will also get his attention.

There are ways to get this done if the contractor is finished listening to you. There are others that contractors must listen to.

AlanRadiantHeat

Good to see the comments. Still waiting for plumber response. Depending on what they say next I will probably go to BBB, but i appreciate the ideas of the certified letter and licensing board.

@edtheheaterman. I did mention impact of higher heat on floor coverings. They said something essentially like not their consideration. Fortunately I have engineered wood so there has been no noticible impact. When I originally brought the whole radiant temp issue saying my polyb alone shouldn't go above 120, they came back with "polyb is rated to 180". Yes @maddog, it is too bad these guys exists in the business at all with their poor ethics. and @hvacnut, I agree, when people do something wrong and they want to evade responsibility they will say just about anything..  and they have.

Mad Dog_2

BBB is NOT a governmental or licensing entity as they would have u believe.  Think of them as an early Version of Angie's List. If the contractor is not signed up with them, you have no leverage save embrassment.  If the guy is a licensed Master plumber or Legit boiler company, he must be licensed by an Examining Board of Plumbers or Consumer Affairs.  They will bring him in, hear his story and yours and MAY suspend his license, fine him, first warning, et cetera.  Depends. Some jurisdictions will seize your work truck if needed.  Do your homework by calling Local Building Dept and ask who grants him his Certificate of Competency?   

If he's not compliant with your changes, THEN tell him you're going to file a complant..It may be enough to get him to comply....If he STILL refuses, do it.  Lawyers are a last resort and will mostly just take both if your $$$...Mad Dog 🐕 

AlanRadiantHeat

Thanks Maddog. They are registered with the BBB.
I will see what happens. Like usual they are dragging their feet in responding.

Mad Dog_2

Atleast the BBB will try to mediate it and he will get a note in his file with them.  I don't know if they give ratings...Mad Dog 🐕 

AlanRadiantHeat

Update. Well after I rebutted the plumber's "seal of approval" comment, they came back with accusations that while they were always trying to fix the problem when they came by I was the one holding them up these past 7 months. But they would not respond to how their solutions were all not solutions at all with their ridiculous suggestions. At that point I brought up BBB. The plumber called the next day. He complained that my job was under quoted, there has been so much admin since then (I guess emailing must be a lot of work for them), said that since then they have done the same job for numerous other customers with no complaints, and said that if he agrees that my way is the way to go, while he will agree to pay for all the changes, he won't be responsible for anything that goes wrong.  Eventually while he agreed that this will work, he later emailed "Our only concern is the possibility of the current high temperature issue continuing after the piping modifications. In this case, we will deem the problem to be due to the system loop lengths, and any additional visits will be subject to our time & material rates." He also did somewhat recant when I asked him about the warrenty 'We will also continue to warranty our work against leaks or early component failure as per our original quote agreement".  All in all I think this is about the best I can get from this plumber. Not sure about his comment about the water temp, but there is no way after the changes for it to be worse than how it is now, based on @edtheheaterman's diagram showing the mix temps possible. 
So now I wait for their schedule to find one open day this summer for them to come back and do the repiping.
Thanks again and HAPPY INDEPENDENCE DAY neighbors!
Alan

Rich_49

AlanRadiantHeat said:

Thanks maddog2.  Yes the bowties are circulating pumps.
In your drawing is a check valve needed just to the left of the 3way? Also, everyone in this forum has recommended the circulating pump relocated to the mix side of the 3way. Is the plumber's desire to keep it where it is wrong/inefficient, or will it be okay? @Edtheheaterman above said with his system layout when only baseboard calls for heat the boiler pump and one other pump go on, but when radiant calls for heat all 3 pimps go on. Is it safe to say the same would happen with your design? @hotrod mentioned his system only 2 pumps would go on if either baseboard or radiant was on but wasn't clear on how his system looked.

HE IS WRONG . Must be inside the mixed loop , PERIOD . F
IRE him and call Mad Dog

AlanRadiantHeat

Hi all. Just wanted to give you an epilogue. So the plumber finally came and completed the the repiping based on the changes discussed in the thread. It took him over a day to complete and appears will function as it should. Will have to wait for the cold season to make the adjustments to the 3way valve to ensure the necessary mix temp is reached for the radiant loop. In the end all the costs were paid by the plumber for the repiping, so I am satisfied in that regard.
Just wanted to express my thanks to this forum and all of you for lending me your expertise, time and advice.
Regards.
Alan

HVACNUT

🤞