Combining baseboard and in-floor temperature issue

Mad Dog_2

Still waking up...This is the way I would to it.  Not showing all the purges & thermometers I install but it gives you the flow and placement of Mixing valve, tees, Circulator. IFC is integral flow check.  Mad Dog 

Mad Dog_2

This is A Buderus GB-142 system I installed on Long Island 15 years ago.  That's the first circulator to the left and Taco mixing valve below it that picks up the radiant zone.  Hope this helps.  Mad Dog 

AlanRadiantHeat

Thanks maddog2.  Yes the bowties are circulating pumps.
In your drawing is a check valve needed just to the left of the 3way? Also, everyone in this forum has recommended the circulating pump relocated to the mix side of the 3way. Is the plumber's desire to keep it where it is wrong/inefficient, or will it be okay? @Edtheheaterman above said with his system layout when only baseboard calls for heat the boiler pump and one other pump go on, but when radiant calls for heat all 3 pimps go on. Is it safe to say the same would happen with your design? @hotrod mentioned his system only 2 pumps would go on if either baseboard or radiant was on but wasn't clear on how his system looked.

hot_rod

The pump needs to be on the mixed port , no way around that. A  3 way mix valve has two inlet port and one outlet, that is where the pump wants, needs to be, a better explanation attached.

The valve should also see the return flow from the loop or circuit it is connected to, as well as a connection back to the boiler return.

Piping it into the high temperature loop will require the high temperature pump to run and supply the needed hot supply to the H port.

When piped off a primary secondary loop as closely spaced tees, only the boiler or system pump needs to run when the  mix valve pump runs.

The valve needs a constant supply of hot water on the H port at least 20 degrees water than the mixed temperature that you want to use

while it is possible to get flow thru a mis-piped 3 way valve, both flow rate and temperature stability will be off

If you guy doesn’t want to pipe it properly, find another guy😗 or gal that understands hydronic mix valve applications

Mad Dog_2

Yes..as HR says, you want the Rafiant zone Circulator pulling away (pumping away!) From the Mixed port of the 3 Way Valve.  The Taco Circs I use have Flow Checks in them. IFC (integral Flow Check), so You don't need a Swing check if that's what you mean..Its maybe 4-6 hours work to fix it.  If the guy insists on his Cockamamie piping, move on.  Mad Dog 🐕 

EdTheHeaterMan

Mad Dog_2 said:

Yes..as HR says, you want the Rafiant zone Circulator pulling away (pumping away!) From the Mixed port of the 3 Way Valve.  The Taco Circs I use have Flow Checks in them. IFC (integral Flow Check), so You don't need a Swing check if that's what you mean..Its maybe 4-6 hours work to fix it.  If the guy insists on his Cockamamie piping, move on.  Mad Dog 🐕 

I did testify as an expert witness in 2 court cases in my career. I believe that Cockamamie is a technical term @Mad Dog_2. This can become overwhelming for some persons like Judges and Lawyers that are not in the trades. You may want to use more generic terms for those that may not be well versed on the trade slang. I might suggest "Bone Head" or "Idiot"

Mad Dog_2

Cockamamie sounds Old English to me...everything sounds more important with a British twist!  Even idiot ! And Bonehead!  Knucklehead! How about nincompoop!  Mad Dog 🐕 🤣 

EdTheHeaterMan

Mad Dog_2 said:

Cockamamie sounds Old English to me...everything sounds more important with a British twist!  Even idiot ! And Bonehead!  Knucklehead! How about nincompoop!  Mad Dog 🐕 🤣 

Did you look up Three Stooges in a Thesaurus, Matt?

...which reminds me of the day my new girlfriend accused me of stealing her Thesaurus from her desk. I was offended by the accusation! I was also annoyed, perplexed, taken back, irked, miffed and bothered!

AlanRadiantHeat

Thanks for all the amazing, helpful and amusing responses. I think I have the learned the most about how to fix my system in the past couple weeks in this forum than the past many months trying to find it myself on the internet. I should have done this sooner then trying to wait for the plumber to figure it out, which he hasn't. Looks like not only will the one circulating pump need to be moved behind the mixing valve, but the other pump just below the boiler  will need to be moved to above the Tee where it splits to go upstairs to the baseboards. Otherwise when only the radiant calls for heat all 3 pumps will have to go on.

If you all would kindly indulge me with another question: for modulating boiler, is there a way to keep the mixed radiant water temperature a solid 120 degrees all the time, regardless if the boiler is pumping out 180 degree water in the deep winter  or 140 degree water in the late fall? Or do you just periodically manually adjust the 3way a few times during the heating season?

@maddog2. Thanks for explaining IFC. My circulating pumps are Grundfos. Not sure if they have flow checks on them, but will assume they do.
@hotrod. Thanks for the detailed explanation and attachments. I read it once but will study it further to wrap my head around it. I want toget this plumber to fix it. The one saving grace is he at least accepts the system is not right. I am just arming myself with all the knowledge he should already have, but doesn't seem to, so I can just tell him what to do. 

HVACNUT

Have you asked the plumber why he's so adamantly opposed to piping it correctly? Maybe he has a good reason. Maybe he's thinking of injection pumping but still thinking it wrong.

Ask how pumping into a mixing valve, and pumping in series on the baseboard zone, and pumping on the secondary manifold while there's primary loop circulator in the boiler makes any sense at all? Ask politely of course. 

I don't have any Navien install manuals on my phone, just service, but I looked up the NCB-E combi (I don't know if that's your model) and they don't show your particular application, but maybe contact Navien, explain what you've got and they can send you a submittal drawing. Then take the drawing and staple it to the plumbers forehead. Politely of course. 

hot_rod

The beauty of hydronic is it if infinitely zonable That provides comfort and efficiency
You have all the pieces to zone and control the systems as it should be, as you paid for

There are plenty of drawings available to guide you to the best piping for a multi zoned system

The radiant should be a zone of its own, not dependent on the fin tube running

AlanRadiantHeat

This whole experience has been a nightmare. Choose this plumber because I have heard of them. Seen their vans around town. Got good reviews. Long time in business. They were very responsive when I was looking to do the changes to my boiler and hwt. After I paid them and the issue arose did I regret choosing them to begin with. I did question them at the start and they said the piping system they chose is what navien required. Their "proof" that it was adequate is that it passed city inspection. I am not a professional plumber, never had any other Heating system then forced air, so it was difficult to say they were wrong. All I knew is that their system didn't do what I expected it to do. This plumber works in a team where there's the pro, and then the secretary. I can only get a hold of the secretary at their office. Never can get a hold of the pro. Asking technical questions of the secretary always are referred back to the pro. But the pro takes forever to respond. And when the pro responds it's defensive and filled with some of the suggestions I posted early on, which some have commented as more or less wrong. I have been as polite and patient as I can be, but they know I am not happy about their work. I could ask them more why questions, but they either don't know, not experienced to even know there is something wrong, or playing dumb to avoid doing the work. Either way I don't want to burn any bridges until I get them to fix this mess amicably. I don't want them to do a poor job fixing it when the time comes. 
I'll take a look with navien, but as just a consumer asking technical questions I expect non-answers like recommending contacting a pro in the area to consult. As I mentioned before no one, except in this forum, is willing to help. Thanks!

hot_rod

Navian doesn't show a lot of piping options, nothing for dual temperature options.

Pick up a manual for any 3 way thermostatic and it will show the correct pump placement when used in hydronics.

sounds like your guy may be un-teachable?

Maybe link him to the Idronic series for generic piping ideas and explanations.

AlanRadiantHeat

Hi maddog2. I took a closer look at your system map. It appears as though the 3way is only getting input from hot supply water. The other inlet appears to be instead returning to the boiler. How would the mix get cooler water going through the radiant loop?

EdTheHeaterMan

AlanRadiantHeat said:

Hi maddog2. I took a closer look at your system map. It appears as though the 3way is only getting input from hot supply water. The other inlet appears to be instead returning to the boiler. How would the mix get cooler water going through the radiant loop?

This will not work. You need to get the C on Mix Valve to get its water from the return of the radiant loop(s). That is the only place that should feed the C on the valve because that is the only place that will have cold enough water under ALL conditions.

EdTheHeaterMan

Sometimes it is easier to see how the water flow will work when you add some temperature numbers to the water and some pressure numbers to the water. Here are some Temperature numbers in the attached diagrams. There is a problem with @Mad Dog_2 diagram, (not just upside down). When you get to the inlet of the cold water to the mixing valve... the water temperature may be as high as 160° if the baseboard is ramped all the way up to the maximum temperature during a design temperature day. The reset curve may yield 180° supply to the baseboard with a 20°ish ∆T at the return. Since the mix cold inlet is attached to the baseboard return, the lowest temperature the mix valve could provide has to be no lower than the 160° inlet to the C on the valve.


I have modified @Mad Dog_2 's diagram in the second file. This will take the C on the mixing valve from the return of the low temp loops. That will let the Mix on the mixing valve have temperatures closer to the desired temperature because the C inlet will be drawing from the coldest water in the entire system.


In the second diagram, the low temp pump can run with the internal boiler pump without using the system (Baseboard) pump. Also the system pump can run without the low temperature pump if only a baseboard zone is calling. I believe this will eliminate the concern that @hot_rod mentioned "pumps in series".


I was trying to make the least amount of change to the existing design in order to make the contractor more likely to agree to the repiping. There is no way around placing a circulator within the MIX to radiant tubing to C on the Mixing valve and boiler return. There will be no pressure difference to force the water thru the radiant loops after you repipe the C on the mixing valve to the proper location.


Your plumber should get familiar with this Plumbing and Mechanical article https://www.pmmag.com/articles/88035-the-do-s-and-don-ts-of-three-way-thermostatic-valves-br-john-siegenthaler-pe/. This is the trade journal for his trade!


See how the pump location is between the Mix port of the mixing valve and the tubing manifold. This is how the professional should do the job.

In the next paragraph (diagram 2) it specifically states that the piping design your plumber used is NOT the "Best Practice" for radiant floor piping design

By adding a high temperature system to the mix, the cold inlet will not have access to any lower temperature water in order to "Mix Down" the floor temperature.

EdTheHeaterMan

I was thinking about your plumber who is not responding to your concerns. I was also wondering if there is any hardwood flooring above that low temperature tubing. If you floor temperature is hotter than the maximum recommended for hardwood floor system, there could be irreversible damage to the floor. Unless your contractor can provide you with some other way of controlling the floor temperature, you may have no other recourse than to submit a claim to the contractor's insurance company for the damages the heating system they installed, caused to your flooring. A letter to that affect, sent by certified mail, will usually get you in direct contact with the contractors expert. The telephone operator for the contractor will not be the person responding to that letter.

If you do not have hardwood floors, then perhaps the high floor temperature has caused the floor to burn someone's feet or melted glue for the tile, or some other problem that may need to have their insurance company pay a claim for. You can get creative here. The fact that you have made this request in writing and sent it by certified mail it to the company, usually means that you should be taken seriously.

Also make reference in your letter that you have asked for a resolution to this issue several times since the date you first called them until now with limited results and no satisfactory resolution. Start keeping a diary of each call and each response. If you can't get the response in writing (only over the phone) then you can start emailing a summary of the conversation and what you understand the contractor said in the phone conversation. Something like this:

Thank you for your response on (DATE) regarding the floor heat temperature problem. I want to follow up with you to make sure I understand you correctly. You made a comment that the circulator location was correct and there should be no temperature problem. I operated the floor heat today when the baseboard was also operating and the floor temperature was over 154°F. If I understood your comment incorrectly please be kind enough to let me know if I made an error understanding your meaning. If you do not reply with any new information, I must assume that I understood you correctly. Thank you again for your telephone response.

EdTheHeaterMan

This alteration gets the circulators for both the Baseboard "System" and the Low Temperature zones in different zones so that the pumps will not be in series.


@AlanRadiantHeat, as far as changing the tee orientation in the photo you marked up. There is no difference, just an extra elbow is needed.

Return water from the radiant needs to go to the C port on the Mixing valve. any water not used by the mixing valve needs a path back to the boiler return.


Hope this helps... I couldn't sleep thinking about this problem.

LOL

Mad Dog_2

  Predawn drawings half asleep, pre-Coffeee  are a mistake!!! Oopsie...That IS the wrong place to bring back the Radiant return and My Photo is the actual way It is to be done, with the Radiant return passing the tee to the cold port on mixing valve, on its merry way back to the boiler on a common return.    Mad Dog  🐕 

Mad Dog_2

This contractor is very foolish to avoid you and your legit concerns.  If I were ever in that position, and I really didn't know what to do, I'd either bring in someone on MY OWN DIME to show me how to correct it, or listen to the HO's plan and and work it through. Alot contractors play the avoidance game and hope to wait out the storm.  You'd be surprised that most HOs, will throw their hands up and eventually give up on getting rectification of the problem...and those contractors bank on it...delay delay...the'll rarely be straight up and say  :"I'm not coming back...leave me alone." The Phone reps cover for them....Its epidemic.... Passive aggressive..  😠 Mad Dog  🐕 

AlanRadiantHeat

Hi maddog2, I'm not giving up as the negative  consequences for my home would be potentially severe and catastrophic. Just to clarify your post, we're you agreeing or disagreeing with @edtheheaterman's correction to your drawing?

Hi edtheheaterman. Thanks for your posts. It seems that you and @hvacnut have the same overall solutions, where the return from the radiant feeds the cold to the 3way but also Tee's off to return back to the boiler. I have reposted his drawing here at the bottom.

One question about the tee placement. You said no difference, but with it like this left picture wouldn't the circ pump pull water returning from the baseboards along with the radiant return, which is essentially how it is now? If they change so it is the picture on the right, the baseboard return due to gravity would have no chance getting pulled up the elbow to the cold side of the 3way. Or is it because of gravity with the left picture the baseboard return goes straight down and even if the radiant pump is on, can't get pulled into the cold side of the 3way?

EdTheHeaterMan

One question about the tee placement. You said no difference, but with it like this left picture wouldn't the circ pump pull water returning from the baseboards along with the radiant return, which is essentially how it is now? If they change so it is the picture on the right, the baseboard return due to gravity would have no chance getting pulled up the elbow to the cold side of the 3way. Or is it because of gravity with the left picture the baseboard return goes straight down and even if the radiant pump is on, can't get pulled into the cold side of the 3way?

Gravity has nothing to do with this, you are moving the water with a difference in pressure caused by the circulator pump. High pressure moves to low pressure. I will illustrate with the diagram I used for temperature change. But to start with, here is an illustration of how the pressure might look in a single zone. The assumption in this illustration is that the circulator head will create a pressure difference (∆P) of 6 PSI between the inlet and the outlet of the pump. When you add the 6 PSI to the system static pressure of 12 PSI and place gauges at several points on the zone, it might look like this. The blue line indicates the pressure when the pump is operating. These are not exact measurements of any particular system, Just labeled for demonstration purposes. . See how the friction of the water traveling thru the pipes will gradually reduce the total pressure at any given point in the loop?

Now lets look at your system on the illustration. I will mark up only the low temperature loop first

See how the pump may move 5 GPM but only feed 1 GPM from the boiler hot supply to the mix valve and the balance of 4 GPM is drawn from the C side of the mix valve. This is how the mixing valve regulates the temperature. Mix 1 GPM of 160°ish water with 4 GPM of 105° water to get 120° water. Since only 1 GPM is coming from the boiler, that section of the piping will only draw 1 GPM from the radiant loop back the the boiler. This is all "pressure difference" created by the pump. This pump is moving 5 GPM at a 3PSI difference. (No particular reason for selecting these number. Your actual flow rate may vary)

The same thing happens on the baseboard side. If you consider that you may have 3, 5, or 7 GPM is pumping thru the high temperature zones, Then the same amount of water will be returning to the boiler.




Now to look at your piping and the Tee location and position in your illustration with both the radiant moving 5 GPM and the baseboard moving 5 GPM. The result is the same when you are talking about forced (pumped) water movement. Gravity has nothing to do with it. The pump will move the amount of water based on the performance curve of the pump and the restriction encountered by the pipes valves and fittings.



Disclaimer: In order to get this point across I did not account for all sources if flow restriction including the equivalent length of fittings or the Cv of valves

Long lesson. I hope this is now clear as mud!

Mad Dog_2

Yes..Agree....cold port of the 3 way mixing (left in drawing) valve needs to be supplied directly with the return from the radiant zone. That was a too quick drawing at a bad hour.  Hope you didn't have to repipe it again because of me!! Ha ha ha . Mad Dog  🐕 

AlanRadiantHeat

Hi edtheheaterman.  Thank you for detailed explanations. While some of it is still a bit over my heat, it helps me understand enough to answer my question.
Hi maddog2. Thanks for confirming.

I have prepared a simplified version of the required corrected system map,  based on the suggestions and contributions provided in this forum, into the below and send it to the plumber just now. I will await their review and see what they say. The check valve was in the plumber's proposal and it didn't seem to hurt, so I kept it in.

hot_rod

It might be helpful to show the complete piping and components for the plumber to better understand.Your drawing doesn’t show the primary secondary header and correct boiler piping, still.

AlanRadiantHeat

Hi hotrod. Based on what has been posted here, I thought I had all the highlights met. Primarily having the radiant return feed the cold side of the 3way, having a circ pump on the mix side of the 3way, having the radiant return after the 3way join up with the baseboard return on its way back to the boiler and moving the other circ pump so it only feeds the baseboard loop. What is wrong? What other components am I missing?  I am not clear on what a primary secondary header is.

EdTheHeaterMan

@AlanRadiantHeat, The primary secondary piping design is a way to make sure that the restrictions of the system are no going to have a bad affect on the boiler as a result of all the restriction of a larger system. There is a separation for function of each circulator in the system. the boiler manufacturer provides you with the Primary Secondary manifold and it was properly installed on your boiler. This photo shows the Primary-Secondary manifold that the manufacturer provided.


The primary loop has the expansion tank on it somewhere. The boiler loop is the secondary loop in this case. The bold colored area of the photo has the manifold the we speak of. I have added some additional pipes and pumps to the photo to illustrate the primary-secondary water flow. The thinner solid lines are the secondary path of water flow. The internal circulator (Boiler Pump) will change speed based on the BTU output of the boiler at any given time.

The water from the common pipe in the manifold gets sucked in to the boiler by the internal (Boiler) pump. Then it goes thru the fire box heat exchanger where it comes out the other end, hot. The hot water then goes into the common pipe to the system. That water may need to travel thru the boiler at a rate of 5 to 10 gallons per minute. (remember that... it's important)

If you remember in one of my previous comments, the system when operating only for the radiant system may only draw 1 GPM thru the primary loop. (The thicker dotted lines) If the boiler needs 5 or more GPM to keep from overheating then the 1 GPM from the radiant system will not be enough to safely operate the burners in the heater. If that happens, then the secondary loop (Boiler Pump) may actually pump the hot boiler water in the opposite direction as shown by the narrow Red dotted line.

The flow from the primary loop when all the zones are calling, may move as much as 20 gallons per minute when both circulators are running, and as little as 1 gallon per minute if only one radiant zone is calling.

The Primary / Secondary piping keeps everything operating smoothly under all possible conditions

So here is the diagram I would show the plumber.

hot_rod

A good explanation by Ed. One point would be the upper two zone valves are "bull headed" best to pipe them like the lower two zone valves. I'm sure Ed shows this as a conceptual drawing, not the exact piping correction.

The important point is that you, and for sure the installer understand the WHY to this drawing, to help prevent mis-piped systems in their future installations.

The vast majority of concerns that come to Heating help have to do with improperly designed and/ or installed boilers.

So we try to explain corrections along with the "fix". Hydronics is somewhat forgiving to bad installs, but plenty of information exists to get the best performance and efficiency from a good design and installation.

The old expression "You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink" comes to mind when Mr Ed chimes in

"A horse is a horse of course of course."

AlanRadiantHeat

Thanks again edtheheaterman for your very detailed explanations. Just a note on the boiler manifold, they actually did install it backwards.  It is supposed to have the s-curve on the right side and the straight pipe in the left side. I did however confirm, and have in writing from navien that it would be fine and not void the warranty, but at the same time questioned why the plumber installed it that way, and see if they cant just flip it around.  When they finally get to the repiping I will probably get them to do that.

Hi hotrod , yes, I appreciate the education that comes out of this forum rather than just "do this". 

So now I wait to see what the plumber says about the changes I am wanting.

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

I've come in late to this conversation and it's sad to see that Navien doesn't have any detailed drawings to help the installer.

This is a diagram from one of the IBC boiler manuals that should have all the components and details of where to install them that you need. This particular boiler has side tappings and your boiler has bottom tappings.

It also shows a remote boiler pump just after the air eliminator which you don't need since the Navien comes with one already.

And Alan: Your installing contractor should take some hydronic heating classes before they position themselves to take on this kind of work. Being passed by the plumbing inspector does not mean that it's done right. Most of the time, the inspector doesn't know what he's looking at. He checks the gas pressure test and makes sure the domestic water is protected by a backflow device and then signs the card. Bob's your uncle.

EdTheHeaterMan

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes said:

I've come in late to this conversation and it's sad to see that Navien doesn't have any detailed drawings to help the installer.

This is a diagram from one of the IBC boiler manuals that should have all the components and details of where to install them that you need. This particular boiler has side tappings and your boiler has bottom tappings.

It also shows a remote boiler pump just after the air eliminator which you don't need since the Navien comes with one already.

I agree with Alan on this. I would have designed it this way. Alan's drawing eliminates the Navian manifold and puts the expansion tank on the internal boiler circulator. That makes the boiler the primary loop, and all the system zones and pumps secondary loops. My diagrams are intended to make the existing piping redesign to the correct piping re-design with minimal changes. That is another reason I did the Zone valves the way I did in the diagram. That piping design is already in place, and I made the decision that it worked with the previous boiler, so it will probably work on the new boiler.

But it appears that i reversed the bull-head to the Baseboard and put the "Best practice" piping on the low temperature zones. Even I can make a mistake every 10 years or so. For the SHORT answer on this Just ask @109A_5 (that is a pun)

hot_rod

The combi boilers typically have a pump inside. Many of them now are a mono-block with the HX, pump, diverting valve and sensors all in a polymer assembly. Probably
a pump like the Grundfos 15-78, an OEM circulator.
Using the Navian P/S header is the quick and easiest way to start the piping as a primary secondary

The piping is good to that point, beyond that it could use some redo. I don’t like the size reduction at that header, looks like it drops to 3/4 for the entire system?

AlanRadiantHeat

Hi @Alan (California Radiant) Forbes. Thanks for your diagram. Good to see yet another support for the piping system that has come to be the consensus best practice for how it should be done. Yes it is so disappointing I got the crap shoot of plumbers when I chose this company.

Hi @edtheheaterman. Not sure what a bull head is.  And I don't see the difference between what you drew and AlanCRF's diagram. My expansion tank is on the primary loop I believe.


Hi @hotrod. Is the header where the boiler manifold connects to the copper pipe?

Mad Dog_2

Alan..1).All tees have a Bull & a Run 🏃‍♂️. 
Think of the Bull of a Tee as a road you are on  that ends and you gotta go left or right .
You are driving straight in to the bull of the tee. Take a left or a right and you are on the Run of the tee...
2) Now, A Bull-Headed Tee is a tee which has a LARGER size outlet than the two run ports...It is used in special situations.  
3) "Bull-heading" A Tee, especially in Hydronics is frowned upon and not the best practice as far as flow and fluid mechanics prefer.  Hope this 'Splains....Mad Dog 🐕 

Mad Dog_2

Yes, I won't speak for Hot Rod but Since he's hopefully sleeping, I'll jump in.. It looks like the SS prefabricated Manifold attached to the bottom of the Wall Hung Boiler has a reducing bushing in the end (left side), knocking down your Flow g.p.m.s and BTU load a bit.  It may work fine, but its generally frowned upon and not good practice to "bushdown" or reduce the Outlets (supplysl)
From Water heaters and boilers.  Most times its done to shave a few bucks off of your material costs for your profit margin.  I try to never do that unless the difference in performance is really infinitesimal or its a low budget job .  Hope this 'Splained it!  Mad Dog 🐕 

EdTheHeaterMan

​​

AlanRadiantHeat said:

Hi @edtheheaterman. Not sure what a bull head is.  And I don't see the difference between what you drew and AlanCRF's diagram. My expansion tank is on the primary loop I believe.
(Image deleted)
Hi @hotrod. Is the header where the boiler manifold connects to the copper pipe?

Here is a picture of a bull head tee compared to a reducing tee. The Run of the tee (straight thru) is smaller than the branch of the tee. You can almost imagine the tee looking like a bull's head.



There are some engineering/physics principles that make one style better than another in certain circumstances. In such a small system I don't believe it makes a difference enough to make your plumber change those original system pipes.


As far as your question for Bob HOTROD Rohr: the header is the name we use for the Navien supplied manifold between the actual boiler supply and the boiler return and the system supply and return. (picture below)

hot_rod

And the header is two bull head tees🥴

AlanRadiantHeat

Thanks @maddog for explaining the bull headed tees, header and bushdowns.  At this point I'm not surprised about all the choices this plumber made. However, my main goal is the repiping. I will live with the rest.

Thanks also @edtheheaterman for explanations as well.

So. Since things are still not resolved I am reluctant to give updates lest you all are in the mood to flame the plumber, but his response to my system diagram was basically, while they would support changing the piping based on their proposal for free (the one where nothing changed but only the radiant return gets fed the cold side of the 3way), if changing based on my plan, which does not meet their 'seal of approval' then they would have to charge me for the labour. I totally can see why they have been giving me these weak fix recommendations because it involves a lot less work for them. I am waiting to hear back wanting an explanation as to why they don't support my plan.

Mad Dog_2

It's unsettling...can you imagine hiring a Lawyer, Doctor, or CPA, et cetera who 'kinda" botches your case, surgery, taxes , then, shrugs their shoulders, and says "if you're so smart, YOU tell ME how to do it!!! And...I'm charging you while "WE" figure this out!   I think this is the crux of what is wrong with society today:  The Buck DON'T stop here.  It's not Generation X, W, or Z's monopoly on the issue, this "shift the blame" attitude  reared its ugly head since time began, but its become more and more common and  accepted as the norm.  Personal responsibility and pride 😤 are not too common across the spectrum.  Thank God there are pockets of it here and there and those true professionals need to be celebrated when they are found. Everyone makes mistakes and can screw up, it's how you ameliorate the the problem.  I have been dealing with the same plumbing and heating supply (est 1810), Christ Plumbing Supply of New Hyde Park, Long Island 🏝. New York since my early years fixing things in the early 1980s.  First, I dealt with the Brown Brothers, John and then Ricky. They always bent over backwards to help you...making $$$ was secondary to them.  Doing the right thing was paramount and the good word and rep meant a great deal  to them.  Then, Chris Smith The Younger (2nd generation Supply House man) and Joe Carraher The Old Shoe (11th Regiment Black Horse Vietnam Tank Mechanic, HVAC Whiz and the  sharpest hands on  boiler controls & electrical genius I've ever known!) bought the business.  They Always do the right thing. I've had many of their competitors try to get my business away from them, but I'm very clear with them on our 40 plus years of doing business together, and that THEY get first crack at my business..The loyalty is reciprocal.   What is so rare and refreshing about all 4 of these men?  If they made a mistake or forgot something, they come out IMMEDIATELY and admit it:
"Damn, Matt, you know what??  I forgot to order that...99% of people will tell you someone in the chain ⛓ 🙄 MUSTA screwed up...."I'll look in to it!!!...you never told me that...its not made anymore...its on back order...blah, blah..." Trying to save face and "look" perfect.  As I said, 
"The Buck stops here!"  You might be slightly annoyed, but you CANNOT be angry about it..its a breath of fresh air and the way, we should all aim to conduct life & business. We, at the Wall do practice this.  The rest of Country should emulate the same Honor 🎖.   A tremendous amount of frustration, misery, nerves, lawsuits  & $$$ lost would be greatly reduced.  Mad Dog 🐕 

HVACNUT

You've got the patience of a Saint, @AlanRadiantHeat. This thread has given me fits. Not so much the fact that numerous piping mistakes were made, but that they refuse to own it. You should print out this whole thread (maybe redact all proper names. I'll gladly give you mine if needed.) and have the installer read it. 
How does a company provide the installation of a mod con boiler completely wrong, and then have the ⚾️🏀 to say doing it right must meet their "seal of approval"? It's Keystone Kops. Unbelievable. 
Let them know also the Titan sub didn't use anyone else's seal of approval but their own either.