Do I need a water softener??

tsayles50

The town we moved to has really bad water, most homeowners get a water softener to protect their appliances because it is so hard. I started to investigate this and then learned a softener is bad for steam boilers. This is a 2022 report on the water in my town, any thoughts on is a water softener is appropriate?

https://water.ridgewoodnj.net/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/2022WQR.pdf

thank you.

Jamie Hall

Not for the boiler. You may -- or may not -- want one for your domestic water. Some people like them, some don't.

But NOT for the boiler. Ever. Softened water is really corrosive, and you don't want that in your boiler.

tsayles50

Jamie Hall said:

Not for the boiler. You may -- or may not -- want one for your domestic water. Some people like them, some don't.

But NOT for the boiler. Ever. Softened water is really corrosive, and you don't want that in your boiler.

Can you educate me regarding the why of that? Just wondering because from what I read hard water is very bad and our town has extremely hard water. What is the best way to address this without using a water softener.

pecmsg

Define “Hard Water”
have it analyzed then address the issues. 

pecmsg

tsayles50 said:

Not for the boiler. You may -- or may not -- want one for your domestic water. Some people like them, some don't. But NOT for the boiler. Ever. Softened water is really corrosive, and you don't want that in your boiler.

Can you educate me regarding the why of that? Just wondering because from what I read hard water is very bad and our town has extremely hard water. What is the best way to address this without using a water softener.

Only pure water boils at 212*, all the minerals stay. They eventually build up and cause issues. 

Salt water and cast iron is not a good combination. 

Jamie Hall

pecmsg said:

tsayles50 said:

Jamie Hall said:

Not for the boiler. You may -- or may not -- want one for your domestic water. Some people like them, some don't.

But NOT for the boiler. Ever. Softened water is really corrosive, and you don't want that in your boiler.

Can you educate me regarding the why of that? Just wondering because from what I read hard water is very bad and our town has extremely hard water. What is the best way to address this without using a water softener.

Only pure water boils at 212*, all the minerals stay. They eventually build up and cause issues. 

Salt water and cast iron is not a good combination. 

and furthermore, most domestic water softeners swap sodium for calcium,, and add chlolrides. About the last thing you want is -- as @pecmsg said -- salt water in your boiler. It just eats iron.

There are methods to soften water to a reasonable level which municipal water suppliers can -- and usually do -- use. I'm rather surprised that yours doesn't. They are not suitable for private water supplies, nor for domestic use.

Calcium is a problem, true -- it's what deposits as scale -- but scale is removable -- and not corrosive.

The easiest way to address very hard water for your boiler is to steps: first, make sure you have little or no leakage. Then use desionized or distilled water for the fill.

random12345

Like I said before, I'm just another homeowner who happens to be interested in heating systems, but this may be helpful:

Page 6 in your Peerless 63 manual:



According to your water quality report, "Ridgewood Water’s source is primarily groundwater from wells. We own and operate fifty-two deep wells which are located throughout the service area in the Borough of Glen Rock, the Borough of Midland Park, the Township of Wyckoff, and the Village of Ridgewood. We also purchase water from Suez Water and, during peak summertime demands, the Hawthorne Water Department."

pH=6.71-8.42
Chloride=71.9-298 ppm
Hardness=142-443 ppm = 8.3-25.88 grains/gallon
Sodium=17.1-123 ppm

If I were you, I would listen to @Jamie Hall. He's one of the pros on here. I am curious as to what others may propose for you. Jamie's advice to fill the boiler with deionized water sounds good but I have no idea how to do that, because I've never done it myself. That water pH is too low, chloride is too high, hardness is too high. Your water quality basically makes your previous issue with the automatic water feeder somewhat irrelevant since you would be better off never introducing Ridgewood water into that boiler. It might be a good idea to simply disconnect it and just make sure your Cyclegard LWCO works.

Does anyone have experience with Rhomar products? How do you fill up a boiler manually?

https://rhomarwater.com/Steam_Treatment.html

pecmsg

Don’t believe what the municipalities say

get it analyzed and find out what your dealing with!

random12345

Why wouldn't you believe them? Even the low end of those ranges is still too high.

tsayles50

Thank you everyone. @random12345 I 100% believe @Jamie Hall I was just interested in why the soft water doesn't work and other options. I am happy I asked about this! It looks like Deionizing systems exist but I think I may ask a pro when I talk with them about other work on my boiler and see what they recommend.

My father in law has steam also and never has had an issue with the hard water in our town so I am trying to figure out where this goes in the list of priorities.

Jamie Hall

List of priorities? Way down at the bottom.

You can use an RO deionizer on the fill line -- but, if your system is tight, that will be overkill.

In response to @random12345 's query as to how -- no problem. Remember that a steam boiler, when it's off, is at atmospheric pressure. Therefore you can just pour your water in to a handy opening somewhere above the waterline. Hopefully, once the boiler is full you don't have to do this often (a gallon a month with a Cyclegard, for instance, should be all that's needed -- some boilers -- Cedric, the boiler I spend most time looking at, used a whopping two quarts last winter... all winter... and it's a big boiler and system)). So there are lots of ways to set up a fill port somewhere in the system.

tsayles50

Jamie Hall said:

List of priorities? Way down at the bottom.

You can use an RO deionizer on the fill line -- but, if your system is tight, that will be overkill.

In response to @random12345 's query as to how -- no problem. Remember that a steam boiler, when it's off, is at atmospheric pressure. Therefore you can just pour your water in to a handy opening somewhere above the waterline. Hopefully, once the boiler is full you don't have to do this often (a gallon a month with a Cyclegard, for instance, should be all that's needed -- some boilers -- Cedric, the boiler I spend most time looking at, used a whopping two quarts last winter... all winter... and it's a big boiler and system)). So there are lots of ways to set up a fill port somewhere in the system.

This makes a lot of sense! thank you so much @Jamie Hall

And thank you so much on the guidance of priorities, that is the hardest part for me this warm season but I think it is starting to come together.

-Tim

random12345

Ok. Thanks Jamie. That's kind of a pain to have to fill up your boiler with chemicals. It looks like he already has something piped into the existing skim port. Not sure what.

hot_rod

Axiom has single use  cartridge deionizers. I think the small one treats 65 gallons, the next size does 250
TDS meters are not to expensive, find  them online

With test kits  you can confirm  you water quality
a hardness test kit and a TDS meter should be under 200 bucks

Water quality can change throughout the year depending on the sources. That is why they show a range 
https://axiomind.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Axiom-Catalogue_web_2023.pdf

tsayles50

@random12345 yes! I just learned about skimming the oil, which I figured that side pipe was for. I, still need to see if it needs to be skimmed. I am not going to think about this deionizing stuff until it starts to get cold again next fall, I need to buy a very large funnel lol

Derheatmeister

We use deironized water for our heating system as per the German Industry Standard VDI 2035..
A Deionizing Cartridge that can help with the initial fill.However we also recommend a sacrificial anode to assist with the proper PH balance.
Low Energy Products in Denver Colorado can help you with your system needs.
1 800 873 3507

random12345

I don't know what it's like in your area, and you may already be aware of this, but at least in Boston where I am, Summer is the best time to get any kind of work done on your heating system. As soon as it gets colder all the contractors get slammed with no-heat calls, people's boilers blowing up, burst pipes, etc. And there's not exactly a lot of good steam contractors available anywhere. You are close to NYC, so lots of companies close by, but you're also a bit out of the way in Ridgewood, NJ and your situation looks like it involves maybe just doing a little bit of re-piping, adding a few vents. There's even less of an incentive for a pro to come out to you for a small job like that. All that to say, I wouldn't be surprised if even now, you'll have to wait a few weeks for a pro to look at your boiler, and then if work needs doing, you might have to wait an additional 1 to 2 months to get it done, and by that time the Summer is nearly over. In one of your other posts @Steamhead asked where you were located, he might know someone. There's also this: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/. You could get your water quality tested like @pecmsg suggested, which may be a good idea not only for your boiler and appliances but also for your health, but you're only getting a snapshot and like @hot_rod said, water quality may change significantly throughout the year. Might want to talk with the Ridgewood water department, see what they have to say about water quality where you are and water softening. Skimming is an easy procedure once you know how, and may need to be done on a regular basis. It's basically just putting a bucket under the skim pipe, opening the skim pipe valve, turning on the boiler fill valve with a very low flow rate, and letting any black, oily substance floating at the top of the boiler slide off through the skim port. Once the water is just rusty brown-colored, turn off the fill valve, drain the boiler down to the normal level in the gauge glass and you're done. After you've made some appointments with pros, I'd try to calculate your EDR. That's an additional useful piece of info.

WMno57

Water softeners are good for appliances. Dishwasher, washing machine, ice maker, water heater, faucets and fixtures will all last longer on a softener if you have very hard water. These appliances have new hard water continuously run through them.
Boilers are the exception because water is not continuously running through (more on this later) but instead is recycled and goes round and round through the hydronic system.
SODIUM IS INCREASINGLY SOLUBLE IN RELATION TO TEMPERATURE. The hotter the water, the more sodium is dissolved into the water and carried through the system. Calcium, Magnesium and Sodium all add to the electrical conductivity of water and cause corrosion. Calcium and magnesium are INVERSELY SOLUBLE, and will plate out on the boiler as scale. THIS IS GOOD BECAUSE IT GETS THE MINERALS OUT OF CIRCULATION, ELECTRICAL CONDUCTIVITY STAYS LOW, AND CORROSION STAYS LOW.
and now for the more on this later part: Continuously adding fresh water to a boiler is also bad because fresh water contains Oxygen. Oxygen also causes corrosion.
@Erin Holohan Haskell How about a FAQ on water softeners good/bad for boilers? This question comes up frequently. Also "hydronic" is not in the spell checker.

Larry Weingarten

H, I'd like to throw a small wrench into the works. I work on water heaters, mostly tank type with anodes. There are two types of soft water... naturally soft, like rain water, and softened, like what comes from a softener. The softener uses an ion exchange approach that swaps sodium for calcium and magnesium. Salt softened water is actually more conductive than the hard water it was used to treat.
When I look at anodes that live in softened water, they are always used up faster. In cases where people soften down to zero grains, the anodes are down to a bare wire in six months. They should last at least five years. So, I wonder what filling your boiler with rain water would do?

Yours, Larry

WMno57

I had a 35 year old Rheam 40 gallon gas water heater on a home with hard water and a softener. It may still be there, I sold the house. I never touched the anode.

Larry Weingarten

Hi @WMno57 , Rheem used to make some really nice, long-lived tanks from Monel. Maybe you had one of those, or you were just really lucky! Also, I'm not sure if Rheem did this, but some tanks were made with much heavier steel and also double glass lined. Actually, if you had a monel tank, or a double lined one, you were already lucky. I've kept records on a bit over 5000 tanks that I've played with. Still, water is different everywhere. This is just my experience.

Yours, Larry

Erin Holohan Haskell

WMno57 said:

@Erin Holohan Haskell How about a FAQ on water softeners good/bad for boilers? This question comes up frequently. Also "hydronic" is not in the spell checker.

Got it! Thanks @WMno57.

gerry gill

If the water is bad use Rhomar's Steam Pro boiler water. I switched my house over to it, just because water quality is starting to get questionable.

ChrisJ

random12345 said:

Like I said before, I'm just another homeowner who happens to be interested in heating systems, but this may be helpful:

Page 6 in your Peerless 63 manual:



According to your water quality report, "Ridgewood Water’s source is primarily groundwater from wells. We own and operate fifty-two deep wells which are located throughout the service area in the Borough of Glen Rock, the Borough of Midland Park, the Township of Wyckoff, and the Village of Ridgewood. We also purchase water from Suez Water and, during peak summertime demands, the Hawthorne Water Department."

pH=6.71-8.42
Chloride=71.9-298 ppm
Hardness=142-443 ppm = 8.3-25.88 grains/gallon
Sodium=17.1-123 ppm

If I were you, I would listen to @Jamie Hall. He's one of the pros on here. I am curious as to what others may propose for you. Jamie's advice to fill the boiler with deionized water sounds good but I have no idea how to do that, because I've never done it myself. That water pH is too low, chloride is too high, hardness is too high. Your water quality basically makes your previous issue with the automatic water feeder somewhat irrelevant since you would be better off never introducing Ridgewood water into that boiler. It might be a good idea to simply disconnect it and just make sure your Cyclegard LWCO works.

Does anyone have experience with Rhomar products? How do you fill up a boiler manually?

https://rhomarwater.com/Steam_Treatment.html

Jamie Hall, as much as I respect him and his opinion is not a "pro".

Not to mention, someone being a "pro" doesn't mean much. There's plenty of bad pros.

Jamie Hall

@ChrisJ is right -- I'm not a professional in the trades (though I sometimes wish I had been). I am, however, a Professional Engineer with some experience in the field, for what that's worth. As it happens, water quality issues is one area I do feel qualified by education and experience to comment on.

COOK

Instead of water softeners, we have installed pulse power electronic water treatment systems on steam boilers to address calcite scale issues. One application in a hospital the calcite scale on the tubes was 1"-2" resulting significant energy losses. The pulse power water treatment system was installed with the requirement that the boiler be opened in 2 months for inspection and to remove the calcite scale that had fallen off the boiler tubes. The calcite was removed from the tubes by the pulse power system. The pulse power system changes the nucleation site of the calcium in solution (supersaturated) to the particles in the water where a powder is formed that drop to the low flow areas of the boiler. Existing hard rock calcite scale on the tubes expands and contracts forming cracks. When the cracks in the scale are not replaced with calcite scale which no longer plates out on heat transfer surfaces such as the tube, all the scale eventually falls off the tubes and does not reform on the tubes resulting in clean heat transfer surfaces and optimal energy efficiency. Calcium is also a natural cathodic inhibitor.

If the water is very soft with little or no calcium, these system are not appropriate.

hot_rod

Water is not so simple when it comes to heating appliances.
This Rhomar manual goes over the various aspects of water for hydronic and steam boilers.
It's worth a complete read. Or skip to the steam section
These folks do water treatment for small and large systems. On a daily basis.

random12345

@ChrisJ and @Jamie Hall I stand corrected. I will not refer to you as such from now on. What kind of engineer are you and what type of engineering work did you do if you don't mind me asking and you don't mind saying?

As for "bad pros," that may be true, but only relative to other professionals in the trades. I would choose a bad pro any day over me in most situations.

metrosilo

I can’t believe it when I hear people actually wanting scale in their boiler rather putting in soft water. Yes, scale can be removed but it’s hard to remove. You need chemical. 

RO is of course the best but sometimes not practical. I only do commercial boilers. A combination of softener, hot feed water tank and the proper chemical is the way to go along with monthly testing so you can dial everything in. 

random12345

@metrosilo Won't the increased sodium and conductivity cause corrosion though? What chemical would get around that?

WMno57

metrosilo said:

I can’t believe it when I hear people actually wanting scale in their boiler rather putting in soft water. Yes, scale can be removed but it’s hard to remove. You need chemical. 

RO is of course the best but sometimes not practical. I only do commercial boilers. A combination of softener, hot feed water tank and the proper chemical is the way to go along with monthly testing so you can dial everything in. 

Naturally soft water is great if you have it. Softened water that came from a sodium ion exchange water softener is not. If you don't understand that, reread my post above.
There are other types of softeners besides sodium ion exchange. Much more expensive and not found in residential use. Some of these industrial softeners use resins that are regenerated with chemicals (not salt). Other industrial softeners use resins that are replaced after one use. Neither add sodium to the water.
My 75 year old boiler probably has lots of scale. No leaks though.

reyes500

I agree with Jamie. You do not want to use highly purified water because the minerals , iron and anything that is in the steam boiler will stick to the water and eventually will be flushed out . Essentially although it might seem like a good idea it is not . You will be reducing the life of the boiler and the steel piping too because the corrosive water will eat it away . Highly polished water such as dionized/ reverse osmosis will shorten the life of the boiler and piping . Keep in mind that this water type is used in dialysis machines. It acts like a magnet by pulling the waste from the blood and pulls it through a paper like membrane. If you want to filter out hard deposits such as calcium , magnesium and iron from your potable water , then try filtering it through a sand filter first and then through fine mesh paper filters. But no more than that ….. at least it’s what I would do . Also note that centralized dialysis water systems (which is highly purified water) is made of ppe piping , not metal because the highly corrosive water will eat it away . 

ChrisJ

reyes500 said:

I agree with Jamie. You do not want to use highly purified water because the minerals , iron and anything that is in the steam boiler will stick to the water and eventually will be flushed out . Essentially although it might seem like a good idea it is not . You will be reducing the life of the boiler and the steel piping too because the corrosive water will eat it away . Highly polished water such as dionized/ reverse osmosis will shorten the life of the boiler and piping . Keep in mind that this water type is used in dialysis machines. It acts like a magnet by pulling the waste from the blood and pulls it through a paper like membrane. If you want to filter out hard deposits such as calcium , magnesium and iron from your potable water , then try filtering it through a sand filter first and then through fine mesh paper filters. But no more than that ….. at least it’s what I would do . 

Then why do steam systems not rott out from pure distilled water?

A sand filter isn't going to remove calcium or minerals.

reyes500

What do you define as “ pure” water ? In a commercial water purification system (aka not for human consumption) the first step before a system is designed is to have the city water analyzed by a certified lab . Based on the results , the system will be designed with cost in mind . Usually the big cheaper filters that can be backwashed are installed first  and as you make it down the line the final stages are RO and then DI . The distilled water you buy at the supermarket is nowhere near as pure . If you were to drink highly purified water , all the nutrients in your body would attach to it and would leave your body when you pee. Therefore if you want to add that type of purified water to your boiler, no one is stopping you . 

ChrisJ

reyes500 said:

What do you define as “ pure” water ? In a commercial water purification system (aka not for human consumption) the first step before a system is designed is to have the city water analyzed by a certified lab . Based on the results , the system will be designed with cost in mind . Usually the big cheaper filters that can be backwashed are installed first  and as you make it down the line the final stages are RO and then DI . The distilled water you buy at the supermarket is nowhere near as pure . If you were to drink highly purified water , all the nutrients in your body would attach to it and would leave your body when you pee. Therefore if you want to add that type of purified water to your boiler, no one is stopping you . 

My boiler literally produces distilled water.  It's literally it's job.

Yet my 100 year old radiators and piping are fine.

How do I define pure water?  My wet return measures between 0 and 2 ppm TDS.

hot_rod

if you fill a system with DI, DM, or RO water, all means of getting water “purified” 

The ph will be low from stripping both the positive and negative ions out, hungry water
Is one way to describe it.

one option is to add hydronic or steam conditioners that will buffer the ph and protect the metals with appropriate chemicals

oxygen scavengers, ph buffers, film providers, for example.

A quick read here on the different ion exchange processes

https://www.caleffi.com/sites/default/files/coll_attach_file/idronics_18_na.pdf

hot_rod

The ph of pure water can drop into the 5.5 range. When put into a piping system it will contact that steel, iron, copper, brass, etc and within a day or so you will see the ph come back to a more neutral 7 range

The aggressive, hungry water will pull ions just as it does running across a river bed

Some folks prefer to buffer that ph instead if waiting

The German VDI boiler water standard indicates straight deionized water as a preferred fill fluid. Still others prefer to add conditioners to the purified water.

Properly applied either method is acceptable.

TDS along with ph and hardness tell most of the fill water story

Jamie Hall

I'm somewhat entertained by @reyes500 's comment on drinking distilled water al the nutrients in your body would attach to it and leave when you pee.

Nope. Go back to Bio 1 -- possibly ninth grade -- and study how the body -- any animal -- stabilises and maintains its body chemistry. Or is fundamental human biology simply not taught anymore?

hot_rod

RO or distilled water doesn’t have any taste, boring😗
Unless you have some  really nasty water condition I feel it is too much treatment for drinking water

Even bottled water has “packages” added back in after the multiple filtration processes 
Sweeteners in some cases to get you hooked😜

Derheatmeister

hot_rod said:

if you fill a system with DI, DM, or RO water, all means of getting water “purified” 

The ph will be low from stripping both the positive and negative ions out, hungry water
Is one way to describe it.

one option is to add hydronic or steam conditioners that will buffer the ph and protect the metals with appropriate chemicals

oxygen scavengers, ph buffers, film providers, for example.

A quick read here on the different ion exchange processes

https://www.caleffi.com/sites/default/files/coll_attach_file/idronics_18_na.pdf

Hmm,Hungry Water on DI water..Correct.. .When we first started using the Caleffi ( Gruenbeck) Deionizing cart and the resins we learned this the hard way.
This is why the Germans use Sacrifical anodes to help balance the PH. (None Chemical approch)

Electro Chemical treatment system work.. We install and service them all of the time.. Even here in the High Country Colorado were most contractors have drank the Glycol cool aid.
BTW..Not all resins are the same,Some of them have more posiive vs negative charges and vs versa. Some "Premium Resins" have a"secret" PH buffer that does't increase the Mirco siemens

Jamie Hall

Magic elixirs. There is one thing which is very important to point out. Unless you are dealing with electrolytic corrosion (dissimilar metals in electrical contact with each other and in contact with a conductive liquid), or you are dealing with an open system, such as a domestic hot water heater or process (consumptive) steam use, the water in a boiler will reach an equilibrium concentration with the various materials used to make up the boiler. That equilibrium will depend on the initial water quality and the materials used in the boiler and piping. Some initial ions are very detrimental in terms of corrosion -- particularly chloride (not chloriNe, chloriDe), as the compounds which they can form with common cations, particularly Ferrous and Ferric ions, are highly soluble in water. Dissolved gasses, such as oxygen or carbon dioxide, are not a problem particularly as they will be eliminated on the initial heating (oxygen) or can be managed with simple buffers for pH (carbon dioxide).

Assuming you are dealing with a closed system and high purity initial water fill, minimal treatment (chiefly a pH buffer) should be all that is needed for heating type applications (power boilers are another story).

The ringers in the deck are "closed" and "high quality". If you are adding makeup water in any significant quatity, you can add conditioners until you break the bank, and you will still have corrosion problems. If your initial water quality is poor, you will have more corrosion than wanted, and, if the problem is "hardness" (calcium or magnesium cations) you may have scale.