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Carrier nears over $12 bln deal for German manufacturer Viessmann

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Erin Holohan Haskell
Erin Holohan Haskell Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 2,346
"Carrier is primarily buying Viessmann's air conditioning division, which includes heating and heat pumps, and accounts for the vast majority of the German company's business."

More here: https://www.reuters.com/markets/deals/carrier-nears-more-than-10-bln-deal-viessmann-wsj-2023-04-24/

President
HeatingHelp.com

Comments

  • Paul Pollets
    Paul Pollets Member Posts: 3,658
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    Carrier stockholders didn't like the move. The stock dropped 7%.
    unclejohn
  • Hot_water_fan
    Hot_water_fan Member Posts: 1,917
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    Could be a fast way to get air-to-water heat pumps to the US
    SuperTech
  • GGross
    GGross Member Posts: 1,105
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    Heard this news this morning, I am a bit worried about it
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 9,959
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    Counting down until Viessmann's product quality starts dropping faster than the rate of new natural gas hookups: 3,2,1...

    I think the germans have regulations against selling defective products, especially ones that fail by releasing refrigerant.
    Derheatmeister
  • TAG
    TAG Member Posts: 755
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    Hear the plant in Mexico is already started ...
  • Paul Pollets
    Paul Pollets Member Posts: 3,658
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    Off all the boilers I've ever installed, Viessmann has been the most reliable by a longshot. A corporate buyout may change that.
    GGrossMad Dog_2
  • RayWohlfarth
    RayWohlfarth Member Posts: 1,554
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    wow that was a surprise
    Ray Wohlfarth
    Boiler Lessons
    Mad Dog_2
  • unclejohn
    unclejohn Member Posts: 1,833
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    The buyers stock always falls and the sellers always rises
  • ScottSecor
    ScottSecor Member Posts: 864
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    This is interesting. I'm still trying to decipher if Carrier now owns the boiler side of Viessman business or not?
    Mad Dog_2
  • dko
    dko Member Posts: 644
    edited April 2023
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    It's not final, there's still a chance it won't happen. Literally 1/3 of their market cap.

    This is for Viessmann Climate Solutions, so yes it is for the boilers.
    All heating, cooling, ventilation, energy generation, and energy storage.

    There is Viessmann Climate Solutions, Refrigeration Solutions, Investment, VC, and Real Estate.

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,476
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    us there an offer pending on Uponor also?
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Tim_D
    Tim_D Member Posts: 129
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  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,839
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    Carrier is junk equipment IMHO especially their residential and light commercial. There heavy equipment is still ok.

    We will see how the Viessmann's run with a blue oval attached.
    Mad Dog_2unclejohn
  • dko
    dko Member Posts: 644
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    Their residential and light commercial is all Midea
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 7,245
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    Not good...not happy..We enthusiastically put in Buderus for years and their support, warranties, and Corporate culture were excellent.  The Acquisition by Bosch and what followed is an embarrassment.  How is this going to improve on an excellent product...only one way to go.....Down.  Carrier used to be a Great All American company to work for ...I've heard its full blown Corporate the last 15 years and everything that's goes with that.   "I want my MTV!"  Mad Dog 
    STEVEusaPA
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 8,167
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    mattmia2 said:

    Counting down until Viessmann's product quality starts dropping faster than the rate of new natural gas hookups: 3,2,1...

    I think the germans have regulations against selling defective products, especially ones that fail by releasing refrigerant.
    This way there will be a market for the factory defects in the Good Ole' USA!

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • Alan (California Radiant) Forbes
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    So much for the traditional brands we all used throughout our lives and careers. We are only spectators. 
    My neighbor just bought a Volvo, now owned by the Chinese. 
    8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour

    Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab
    Mad Dog_2
  • SuperTech
    SuperTech Member Posts: 2,205
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    Carrier is junk equipment IMHO especially their residential and light commercial. There heavy equipment is still ok. We will see how the Viessmann's run with a blue oval attached.
    In my opinion all the residential forced air equipment is junk, with the exception of Thermopride oil furnaces.  The only difference is some junk comes with a better warranty. 

    When I come across old A/C systems still in operation from the 80s and 90s its easy to see the difference in quality. Thicker condenser coils, no ridiculous hail guards that trap dirt and grass clippings on the coils, thicker sheet metal. Some even kept the compressor in the electrical cabinet instead of open to the elements under the condenser fan. It seems like the engineers cared about designing a decent product instead of how to build a unit that is whatever efficiency rating the cheapest way possible. 
    Mad Dog_2
  • GGross
    GGross Member Posts: 1,105
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    The ink isn't dry yet, but I will go out on a limb and say that Max Viessmann doing an interview with CNBC about it means it is probably going to happen. It will still need to pass by German regulators, they are pretty strict about letting long standing German businesses like Viessmann sell to foreign owners, but they will almost certainly approve it. Looks like they can't layoff any Viessmann staff (around 10,000 employees that go with the sale) for 3 years, and need to maintain the Allendorf HQ for 10 years. Viessmann family will maintain ownership of their refrigeration business (they do walk in coolers throughout Europe) and Viessmann Investments. My family has been in the business of selling these boilers since before I can remember, This just makes me so sad

    https://www.coolingpost.com/world-news/carrier-confirms-e12bn-viessmann-purchase/
  • tocker
    tocker Member Posts: 30
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    Yup, can't imagine that quality won't suffer. The CEO on CNBC is only focused on in his words..."growth, growth, growth", particularly in ASHP to replace boilers. Carrier's philosophy seems to be contradictory to the Viessmann philosophy of quality. Electrification is driving it all.
  • Sal Santamaura
    Sal Santamaura Member Posts: 532
    edited April 2023
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    tocker said:

    ...Electrification is driving it all.

    Corporate single-mindedness about profit and staff cutting / consolidation over everything else is driving it. Just like it drives/drove all mergers and acquisitions. Electrification is just the latest "reason" -- in reality, excuse -- given.
    GGross
  • GGross
    GGross Member Posts: 1,105
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    tocker said:

    ...Electrification is driving it all.

    Corporate single-mindedness about profit and staff cutting / consolidation over everything else is driving it. Just like it drives/drove all mergers and acquisitions. Electrification is just the latest "reason" -- in reality, excuse -- given.
    Viessmann has also been electrifying before it was a talking point in the US, there are more realistic reasons why Europe would want to electrify as they buy fossil fuels from hostile countries. Something like 70% of Viessmann's climate solutions business is already heat pumps
  • unclejohn
    unclejohn Member Posts: 1,833
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    I don’t know why the bad mouthing of Carrier. I started in the early 1970 working for a Company that floor stocked Carrier equipment. The old 38 BA,s the 5 to 10 ton roof tops 48 something to me were the gold standard. They were innovative and at the top with higher efficiency units. Sure they had a few duds like the “spam can “ unit that was Carrier basically saying heck yea we can complete with Goodman on price. Also putting that 033 dryer in front of the liquid shut of valve was a dumb move but no dumber the the York Heat Pipe furnace or Rheem- Ruud putting the electric heater inside the blower wheel. 
  • jumper
    jumper Member Posts: 2,331
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    HVAC manufacturing industry has been buying itself for decades. Insiders may earn more money doing deals than making and distributing stuff?
    GGross
  • clammy
    clammy Member Posts: 3,114
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    Can’t say much but all I have seen on my last visits to carrier northeast was emptiness nothing as it was say 5 years ago and a mere shadow of 10 or say 30 years ago .even though they opened a branch in my town it didn’t last long like 2 years and then the way of the dodo had the worse counter guys ever ask for a condenser fan w units model number and the guy brought me out a inducer fan ,I walked out and went to Johnstone . There’s just nothing there they rent out more then half of the warehouse space and the outside storage area had about 3 rooftops while years ago there would have been 40 units stacked . If that’s a indication of things I would think vissesman is just look for a fool to buy there crap and carriers business planning is modern bull so it’s a perfect fit .
    I know a lot of guys are sold on the big v but while in Germany 25 years ago I went around and talked w heating guys and they stated that dr v states a viessmann was in every German household as heating guys stated not true and went to show a few buderus boilers both cast and wall hung in some apartments and larger apartment building ,they stated this is what you will see more of not the big v . Let’s look at buderus where are they now , on another note do some reasearch and see the big v is also sleeping w Panasonic on some ammonia fuel cell tech I guess making on your own for the big v is not easy ,especially since there picked up by supply house for a few years and then dropped due to crappy sales and move onto another supply chain who’s left from Ridgewood to Blackman to universal supply to I think Furgerson all I gotta say is oi vey I’m done . For a private company I see the big v slicing itself up and partnering up w publicly traded companies guess money running thin and it’s always good to tick onto a larger publicly traded co and influx free money to support the worlds best of the best . Plus as most may not known unlike in Europe the government helps pay fro r and d unlike here in the USA Lol
    More corporate flipping as the economy tumbles for all the small folks and we go broke just remember corporate is doing great just like about 100 years ago any body remember .i may not have been alive but I’m a student of the past w a memory ,don’t lay your wealth where rust and corruption breed . One dead horse tying itself to another dead horse in hopes of resurrection and a blind man notices nothing yet approves .
    Peace and good luck clammy
    R.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
    NJ Master HVAC Lic.
    Mahwah, NJ
    Specializing in steam and hydronic heating
    Mad Dog_2
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 7,245
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    Gotta Love Clammy's Directness!  Amen.  Mad Dog
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,476
    edited April 2023
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    Doesn’t Carrier  own Riello also? How did that product and support change?
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Paul Pollets
    Paul Pollets Member Posts: 3,658
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    Mergers and Acquisitions is a discussion beyond a place where understanding proper heating design and installation can be questionable. I've worked with Viessmann products and equipment for 30 years. At an early point I sold their boilers exclusively while most wanted to sell 3 different machines (good, better and best) I managed to establish a good relationship over the years with them and any problems were handled promptly. My only concern would be if the supply chain is affected or customer service is reduced.
    MikeL_2GGross
  • MikeL_2
    MikeL_2 Member Posts: 506
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        Mergers, global commerce,  & acquisitions are the norm in this modern world. Life is too short to agonize about any of it, especially the undertone of political discourse that can be deafening to me; neutrality has served me well.
         There's little my small enterprise can do about it except continue to analyze, assess, adapt, & adopt; that's what we learn to do while earning a living and reputation.