How does a 45-degree Elbow Work?

fshea31

I have a steam radiator in my apartment that's been a nightmare due to its noise. A plumber did an inspection and suggested that a 45-degree elbow would help the steam flow better and perhaps alleviate the banging sound. But I looked online for a picture of one, and I don't understand how the connection would be made. I've attached a picture. The red box is where all the noise is coming from, and the yellow line is the pipes to connect. Right now there are two 90-degree elbows, so how does a 45-degree one connect? Thanks.

mattmia2

You'd use 2 45's and a nipple instead of a 90 so the the section that is now horizontal would be at a 45 degree angle. Could also use a 45 and a street 45 in place of the 90. I doubt that the 90 that you can see is your problem, that is such a small section that it isn't holding much water. it is more likely the pitch of the lateral under the floor or the radiator(or the pipes rubbing on the framing)

STEVEusaPA

So it probably worked properly for 100 years, now it needs 45's?. I'd find someone else.

mattmia2

If it is really the red box and not below the floor, it could be the flooring rubbing on the pipe, cut the flooring back with a chisel or an oscillating saw.

ethicalpaul

Sounds like the guy thinks the steam is running into the sharp turn and making a crashing sound. He is guessing, and incorrectly

fshea31

Thanks for the tips. A different plumber drained the radiator and when he reconnected it is when the banging in the red box started. The radiator is now about an inch closer to the hole in the floor. So maybe the pipe's pitch did indeed get messed up. But it would be such a small change. Either way, I'll forget about the 45-degree suggestion.

ethicalpaul

If the banging is water hammer, it is caused by water collecting in low spots in the piping. The water cools, and when the steam comes again, it is rapidly condensed by the cool water which causes a rapid pressure change which picks up the water and throws it.

The simple (but sometimes not easy) solution is to ensure that the pipes are all pitched correctly to not allow any low spots where water can collect.

Since your problem is new since some guy thought he should drain a radiator (never necessary if the pitches are correct), it should be pretty straightforward to fix whatever he did. Good luck!

mattmia2

If it is steam there shoudln't be anything to drain. If the radiator is filling with water you have to figure out why. Is it 1 or 2 pipe? Where are you located, we may know someone that knows what they are doing.

fshea31

It's 1 pipe. The management's plumber worked on the pitch through the apartment in the floor below. After he did so, there was still noise, but it was now closer to the wall. I finally came to the conclusion that it was pipe expansion against wood. I asked him if putting a shim between the pipe and the joist could cause any safety issues when the pipe heats up. He was annoyed that I offered this solution, wanted nothing to do with putting in a shim (even though he said it wouldn't be flammable), denied that pipe expansion against wood could be a problem, and instead suggested draining the radiator, despite the noise not coming from anywhere near the radiator. I said if it can't hurt, go ahead and drain it. Obviously it did hurt because that red box now lets off a loud popping sound whenever the heat comes on (although the sound near the wall is largely gone now).

I then found my own plumber to do an inspection. He suggested replacing the valves (there are two problem radiators) and also doing the 45-degree change. The valves are actually broken, as you can't open and close them with the handle. I assume that the original plumber made sure they're completely open when he worked on them, but I guess I don't know if anything else with them is broken.

I will say that there are particular spots in each room about five feet away from the radiator that when I step on the floor, there's a pop at the valve. And the living room radiator occasionally pops loudly at the valve when the heat is running, along with a rattling sound from somewhere that I can't exactly locate when the heat doesn't even seem to be going.

Also, new vents that management installed let off an ear-piercing whistle. I had suggested they install Varivalves because when I lived on the floor below, the previous management installed them and they worked great. But this management went with what I think are Maid O' Mists. I can't complain about them being cheap because maybe Varivalves aren't appropriate for the next floor up, and maybe it's the broken valves that are causing the whistle.

So I guess the question is, should I just ask management to replace the valves? They weren't thrilled with the quoted price, but if that's a common price, I guess they should accept it. The problem is, if the valves weren't broken enough to be the cause of the noises, they won't be willing to try anything else. By the way, I'm about 40 minutes north of NYC. If I were in NYC, I could probably find someone knowledgeable to fix this for good, but I had trouble just finding one here who seemed to have some steam experience.

ChrisJ

The valves aren't the reason for the noise.
A system producing enough pressure to run a small steam engine is.

mattmia2

Please edit to remove prices. We can't talk prices for services on here.

The popping is piping without enough clearance to move. Sometimes slipping some dense and slippery plastic in between can let things slide without sticking then popping, other times you need to cut the wood away or shift the pipe.

The whistling vents are either too high pressure in the boiler or missing or broken vents on the mains or both.

fshea31

The pipe running into the wall in the image above is pressed right up against a floor joist. I don't think there's even room to slide a piece of plastic. As for the other radiator, I didn't think there's anything pressed up against the pipe, but I can't really see much. Unfortunately, when the ceilings below me were cut out to access the pipes, I think the plumber only considered the pitch of the pipes. And I don't think management will open them up again, so any fixes will have to be possible through the floor.

I appreciate everyone's help. Whatever I do next will probably be the last thing management helps with, so I'm glad to not waste it on unnecessary new valves or fittings.

Edit: One last question: If there's also a boiling/gurgling sound in the picture above, could that also be a sign of too high pressure in the boiler?

mattmia2

It could be pressure, but probably other problems with the boiler piping or water quality or both.

ethicalpaul

You have what sounds like several problems and several contractors who know nothing about how to fix them, it's a tough situation

TonKa

My first attempt to fix this would be to shim the radiator up by 1/4 inch. It could be a lot of things, but this is cheap and I'll bet the noise will stop afterward.

While you're at it, make sure the radiator slopes back toward the valve on a 1 pipe system.

mattmia2

TonKa said:

While you're at it, make sure the radiator slopes back toward the valve on a 1 pipe system.

Be careful with this style radiator, I think the valve is in the center of the legs so it should be close to level with just a slight slope toward the valve if any because the section of pipe that connects between the valve and radiator will slope away from the valve and trap water when the radiator slopes toward the valve.

ChrisJ

I suppose I'm just lucky.
I have 3 radiators that are pitched backwards and they never make a sound.

By pitched backwards I mean the vent side is probably a good inch lower than the pipe side on two of them.

109A_5

Hello @fshea31,
Since it is a one pipe system the solution may be as simple at to elevate the whole radiator enough to change the pitch of the pipe (Red arrow) so the condensate can not puddle in that pipe, allowing the condensate to drain back towards the riser from the main. Also maintaining the pitch of the radiator so it drains properly too.

It looks like it was once done (Green arrow), it may need more now as the building settles.

ethicalpaul

ChrisJ said:

I suppose I'm just lucky.
I have 3 radiators that are pitched backwards and they never make a sound.

By pitched backwards I mean the vent side is probably a good inch lower than the pipe side on two of them.

Knowing your system a bit, the steam probably never gets to the water sitting in there

fshea31

I do now think it's a combination of the pipe's pitch dropping a little and the pipe getting caught on the wood. But I don't think any space can be created between the pipe and the joist because I can't push the radiator back any further. What about rotating the elbow in red 90 degrees and attaching the valve to it and getting rid of the other elbow? Or does it need to be sitting on that wood?

mattmia2

I can't tell form the picture for certain, but it looks to me like the front of the ell turning down is caught on the edge of the oak strip flooring, you can cut that and the subfloor back a bit.

STEAMFITTER597

Ugh.  Steam heating pressure should never be over 2 pounds. Radiator vents will not open if above. Single pipe radiators need to be pitched to the valve. The valve must always be wide-open or wide closed. any other place will cause hammering. All main piping should pitch a quarter inch in 10’. Towards end of main vent.  The whistling could be from bad end of Main vents. Or high pressure. End of Main vents allow the main loop to fill. Radiator vents allow the radiator to fill. Steam radiators should have no water in them other than a drop. More than that you have issues. The system was designed to work 100 years ago. They are still good systems,  just misunderstood.

EdTheHeaterMan

I can't help it. When ever I hear of a heating system "humming" or "whistling" I have to tell my customer the reason is because it forgot the words. If you can put the sheet music in plain view of the radiator, perhaps the whistling will stop.

As far as getting the other noise to stop. Perhaps if you were to place your rent or co-op or condo fee in a lawyer's escrow account until management can abate the noise, you may find that the money (or lack there of) will get action sooner than later. Find a lawyer that knows the law for your situation. And document everything phone call text message email and letter. The best paper trail usually wins the case. According to Judge Judy anyway and really... the bottom line is that all you want is "Quiet Enjoyment" of your home. ...and that banging noise from old steamers kinda goes against the QUIET part of that legal term

Mr. Ed