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Pool Heater Gas Tapped off Interior Lines.

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reverse_c
reverse_c Member Posts: 10
edited March 2023 in Gas Heating

Need some Assistance please.

I'm trying to see if tapping off my interior gas line is possible without starving my other appliances or causing issues.

I cannot run a separate line from the meter without heavy costs of trenching to the opposite end of the house under existing concrete patio.

I only have 3 Gas Appliances currently on a 250 meter.

Gas Range/Stove combined 78k BTU

Gas Furnace: 80k BTU

Fireplace : 30k BTU ( never use)

Water heater is electric

Exisiting Gas Line: 1" - 50ft run to basement to opposite end where it is split into 2

from there its split into 2 x 3/4" in runs to furnace and gas range.

I've heard from a few plumbers each with different tap options to the exterior where the pool heater will be placed. BUT tapping off the 1" sounded right more than some others. One plumber mentioned tapping off the 3/4" without asking for any specs of the Pool heater so I was a little worried.

None of the plumbers really did any math or tried to calculate anything so i assumed they just wanted the job or I may just be skeptical.

The gas company already stated they are ready to upgrade my meter to AL425/2 PSI Split meter from my request, but they suggest a plumbing professional when I asked the possibility of tapping off my gas line.

I originally wanted a 250k BTU but was expected to need a 1 1/4" pipe but I will settle for a Raypak 207A(200k BTU) which per the specs can use a 1" pipe for the total run about 80 feet to my pool heater. (Specs below)

I understand the needs for manifolds and regulators too(to a degree) but will Tapping off the interior gas lines to run to a pool heater on the exterior be possible?

Think i'm expecting to pay $ for the gas line work and $ for the Pool Heater Installed. But I would also like to be sure the pool heater will work and my existing appliances not have any issues.

Thanks in advance.

RayPak 207A Gas pipe line specs.


Mad Dog_2

Comments

  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,573
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    At a quick glance, your existing pipe will not carry the load with 7" WC gas pressure. You might consider having the gas company install a 2# gas meter. You would need to put step down regulators on each appliance.

    Pricing is not allowed on this site, please delete pricing from your post.

    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
    Mad Dog_2
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 9,747
    edited March 2023
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    You could also run a separate line from the meter for the pool heater through the house.

  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 7,106
    edited March 2023
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    One of your licensed plumbers should know you'll need the larger class meter. Mad zdog

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,620
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    Your going to have to run from the meter location. And have the gas utility install a larger meter. As @mattmia2 mentioned you can run the gas line for the pool heater through the house and then go underground to avaoid some of the trenching.

  • Larry Weingarten
    Larry Weingarten Member Posts: 3,335
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    Hello, Something else to consider is a pool cover to reduce heat loss from the pool, and installing a smaller heater. The main downside is that it will take longer to heat up, but it will give you more choices about how to supply gas... Do you get much sun? If so, solar pool heating might be an option too. 🌞

    Yours, Larry

  • reverse_c
    reverse_c Member Posts: 10
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    Great thanks for all the assistance. Every plumber mentioned the load, and that's why the gas company is ready to upgrade my meter to the AL-425 which supports up to 425kBTU/hr @ 2PSi

    I thought that AL425 should be able to cover it IF I can have all the appliances on one Line. I apologize for the lack of plumbing verbiage if I missed something or if I'm not calculating gas right.

    Pool heater:200k btu

    Furnace: 80k

    Gas range 80k

    Fireplace 30k

    Totalling 390k < 425k(meter)

    Each plumber mentioned a step-down regulator at each appliance which I was OK with. And possibly a central manifold.

    Any more insight would be greatly appreciated.

    As far as other options: I do have a pool cover but the heater is to extend the swimming months here in Virginia. And possible night swimming during the summer breezy nights.

    Additional meter and separate pipe running through the house will be very pricey too.. The access point I have for the 1 inch is in my utility room on the other end of the house which is not finished and the easiest point to tap off right next to the exterior where the pool heater would go.

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,256
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    generally you make a drawing like this with dimensions, then use the 2 psi table to size all the piping

    2 psi regulators at each connection can either be vented outside or have vent restrictors

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • reverse_c
    reverse_c Member Posts: 10
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    Hey Hot_Rod or any other opinion,

    just drew this up. Around the area where the 1" splits into 2x 3/4" lines is in part of the basement to Furnace&Range that is unfinished. so its the least invasive. the planned piping will tap off the 1inch before it splits. The plumber did mention a Manifold in this area too, so i'm not sure if that would cause any more issues.

    Any info would be great if this will work or if it will be risky with impacting the pool heater or appliances.

  • ch4man
    ch4man Member Posts: 296
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    ask the gas co to clairify a "split" meter, that suggests to me what ive seen before and thats 1 meter and two regulators. 1st cut reg drops street pressure to 2lb to feed the meter then to a tee where the pool heater is tapped. beyond that is a pounds to inches reg to feed the house . this saves you from major repiping inside and saves money by being able to run smaller pipe (@2psi) to the pool heater. finally install another dedicated pounds to inches reg right at the pool heater

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 8,092
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    There is something that you may want to look into. see if your gas company will provide you with a separate meter for the pool. Back in the day, some gas companies offered a lower POOL heater rate for gas that wnnt thru that meter. BUT that meter needed to be turned off during the winter. This insures that you don't use your heating equipment on the lower cost meter. Equipmewnt that is use only in the lower demand summer months qualify for the loser rate.

    In reference to using the existing smaller diametere pipes for the larger load…. Making the existing less than 1/2" PSI pipes carry higher pressure may reveal leaks that you do not notice now. Then you will replacing more pipes that you would if you just ran another 1" line from the meter to the pool location. Then all you need to make 1-1/4" pipe, is the meter to the tee where the new and the old pipe are connected. And that may be completed by the Gas Company when the new meter is installed. All depends on the meter installer at the time.

    Just some thoughts from an old man in a wheelchair.

    Mr.Ed

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    reverse_c
  • reverse_c
    reverse_c Member Posts: 10
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    Thanks Ed. Appreciate it. A separate meter was an option until the costs were really high. the pool area has an existing Patio that would have to be chewed up to get there. Another pipe run through the interior would require some serious work in the finished area of the basement with a few 90 degree turns( counting 4) till its a straight shot to the unfinished area. tapping off the main 1" would be my best budget option, if it could work with no issues.

    EdTheHeaterMan
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,256
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    I had to upgrade to 2 psi a year ago for my shop boiler addition. I had to get a city permit, re-test all the existing lines, the city contacted the gas provider to approve the upsize. I supplied all the 2 psi regs, one for furnace and hot water tank, one for the shop.

    So see what you gas provider is requiring and if a city inspection is required.

    Use the table I attached above, looks like 57' to the pool heater. 1" is plenty of pipe size at 2 psi for all those appliances

    The big if is the pressure test, and plan B if it doesn't hold the test? Disconnect all the current appliances, do the test before you make the 2 psi decision

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    Larry WeingartenEdTheHeaterMan
  • reverse_c
    reverse_c Member Posts: 10
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    Hey Hot_Rod,

    If i continued with the Pool Heater install, the gas company would upgrade my current meter with an AL-425/2PSI https://www.imacsystems.com/al425.htm .

    This should cover the low pressure concern, right?

    I will have to get a permit and inspection based on what one plumber stated which I'm ok with.

    Im just hoping the tapped gas line system will work and my other appliances wont have any issues.

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,256
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    all is fine as long as the current piping can handle a pressure test. My AHJ wanted 30 psi for 1 hour, observed.

    Appliances will be fine when you add 2 psi to 11" regulators. I'm not sure how easy the fireplace will be to add a regulator, it needs to be outside the firebox somehow.

    The meter doesn't usually set the pressure, they usually change the current regulator at the meter to give you 2 psi.

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • GGross
    GGross Member Posts: 1,070
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    If you are switching over to 2PSI and are going to put individual appliance regulators in, just keep in mind that your furnace may need more piping between the unit and the appliance reg. Generally when sizing gas we are most concerned with being able to deliver the correct amount of fuel, but many modern gas appliances need a specific volume of gas at ignition or can have intermittent flame failures. I have only personally seen this on mod/con boilers, most recomendations say at least 6 feet of piping between the appliance and the reg, in a specific case with a boiler we needed 10'

  • DJDrew
    DJDrew Member Posts: 89
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    Just wondering… why a gas heater? Several neighbors have been actually removing their raypak heaters and putting in either a heatpump heater or solar heaters. From what they have said, their operating costs have dropped significantly…. Have you studied the heat pump option to bypass the gas line issues?

    mattmia2
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 9,747
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    Could you run a branch from the meter under ground to a place in the house where you can get in to the unfinished area then run from there to the pool heater?

  • reverse_c
    reverse_c Member Posts: 10
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    Thanks, Hot Rod. there is room under the fireplace from what i can see.

    Unless you see something i dont, of course. Much appreciated.

  • reverse_c
    reverse_c Member Posts: 10
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  • reverse_c
    reverse_c Member Posts: 10
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    Mattmia2, i dont think i can without some serious work on the finished side of the house..

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,256
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    here are the regs I used, download the installation manual for info.

    It does state they be installed by a licensed gas fitter. Are you?😳

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • reverse_c
    reverse_c Member Posts: 10
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    DJDrew,i'm not sure where you're located but I'm in Northern Virginia. just moved into the house last year, so I can currently have a late May - early Sept Swim season. The pool heater would help extend another 2 months. A heat pump is the last resort where i can enjoy the pool at night or half month maybe. Any info on your neighbors pool pumps or location would help. I researched pool heat pumps quite a bit…. meaning youtube.. and most of those videos are set in Cali, Texas, Florida. Not many in the Virginia area. Even my local pool shop said i wouldnt get much out of a heat pump in my area. Solar Pool heaters will be dormant for night swimming but I guess that is another option should the gas system not work.

  • DJDrew
    DJDrew Member Posts: 89
    edited March 2023
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    I'm in the Pittsburgh region, so a little more north. One of our favorite neighbors whose pool we use had removed their gas heater and instead put in a solar heater. We (my family) can hardly use it during the summer because they keep the pool too warm, between 92-98 degrees all summer long. It's not till the end of September that we like going over - and the water is still in the 80s. I've been completely impressed that all they have to run is the pool pump to heat the pool.

    Energy Saver [.gov] has some good data on heater types in different regions. Pool covers make a huge different in operation cost. I was a skeptic on solar heaters and heat pumps until I saw them running well in our region.

    Here is our neighbors house with their solar heater setup, with solar panels to even subsidize operating costs further.


    Larry WeingartenCanadian_Al
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,256
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    Looks about right, it takes about 70% of the pool surface area in collectors to help add on both ends of the season.
    Those collectors can also cool the pool, if the nighttime temperature drops, you get what is called nighttime re radiation, the collectors see that cool upper air mass and dump temperature.

    Same process to cool down solar thermal tanks when there is light or no load on the system.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    Larry Weingarten