Steam boiler not working correctly

Mad Dog_2

I'm ALL for restoration and OEM repair, but this ALL depends on how much time one has in ones life.  If you have time to tinker and experiment via trial & error that's really cool 😎...you'll learn a ton and be proud of yourself. Me?? Ive spent countless DAYS, WEEKS, MONTHS  on doing just that...paying lots of that "tuition " Dan talks about and not getting paid to do it.  If you're doing this for the Famblie's main source of income, you have to draw the line and CHARGE tuition for YOUR "SCHOOL"...HA HA  . In my case, that means
"Play and tinker" and research  a bit, but when that drags on, I'm doing a modern upgrade.  I'm cutting the out the Antique, (DOING a heart transplant or coronary bypass surgery)  that is only going to confuse the H--- out if the next generation of plumbers (look how 🤔 they stump most of today's plumbers!). The Boiler return trap is coming out, the ancient main vent or air Expeller-out.  Then I'm putting in my Beloved Gorton #2s or Bigmouth Vents because they simplify the system and make it dummy-proof...Knucklehead-proof.  Even my own Old Victorian Farmhouse is a  SUPER Simple Vapor system...NO Traps...just a few loop seals.  If I can figure out a good solid, quick solution and can get a system back in its cage,  I'll leave everything in tact...but thats not usually the case.  You've got bits and pieces of the OEM appurteneces with Jack-Leg-Stumble Bum -knucklehead adaptations to them.  What I will usually do is offer to mount the old gem on the boiler room wall out of respect & love of Heating history and if they dont dig that, it comes with me and will find a nice cozy resting place, either displayed in
My barn or the Catskill Cabin...or it goes to the Museum.  Mad Dog

109A_5

Dave8699 said:

When I rise the water level manually to about 1" from the top the boilers stays on and everything heats up, but the issue is that the vapor tank gets full of return water and it doesn't fill the boiler until the steam starts flying out the top and it fills the basement up.

Presently I bet the system pressure is still way beyond what the Veco Governor was designed to run at and also the whole system for that matter. Every path into the Veco Governor's float chamber normally has water in it. So for steam to erupt out the top as much as it is I would suspect it is coming from the Steam Inlet port and due to the excessive pressure has pushed the water out of that Equalizing Chamber that has the dip tube in it. I think it is less likely (but not impossible) that it is coming from the returns. Much more condensing going on before the steam gets to the returns and then there is the return water trap in the Air Separating Chamber, which is deeper than the Equalizing Chamber. Also the steam would more likely just go out the vent pipe unless the vent is plugged up.

Do you have an Infrared imaging tool ? If so, you may be able to see the path the erupting Steam is taking.

Since you probably don't know what the last guy did except the obvious, I think @mattmia2 has a real good idea with skimming it. It may calm things down a lot. And it may need multiple skims.

BTW in my opinion the Veco Governor was meant to be a system control device and not really an extra water storage device. If the system ran at 1 or 2 Oz. not much extra water in there and the water in there I bet stayed at a fairly constant level. I think you can kind of tell where the pressure once was by the rust in the sight glass.

reggi

@Steamhead has worked on these systems and @DanHolohan should be able to give a little bit better idea of what to look for before committing....I myself wonder what the inside of governor looks like after 100 years..
I'll check to see if I have any original install diagrams/literature .. if it was piped to the chimney for the draft it would be in sense a vacuum system ..so popular in that era

Mad Dog_2

It will edifying to see what you can do with this.  MAD Dog

Dave8699

It's like Mad Dog said, if I had days to spend there and not worry about getting paid prefect. I'll spend all the time in the world and fix it little by little, but that's not the case. I have to run a business and customer obviously got screwed previously multiple times. I need to find a bullet proof plan that will work so the customer doesn't have headache no more and doesn't feel like they keep on getting screwed. 

reggi

Any idea of what boiler was replaced and why ? Back to basics and measure the radiators to get the EDR to compare to the boiler sitting there now..
Pressuretrol cranked up didn't do any favors on the those old traps...see if there's any with bellies on them.. they'll blow steam into the return at ounces..
The near boiler piping I'm going to guess they didn't mess too much with that because it looks too big to be hacked up..
Look under that tape wrap around the pipe coming off the boiler that you know they must of replaced and see what's there and if it's right... everything you figure they connected to..check that it's right.. they covered it up pretty good for a reason I imagine..hint hint

Just some detective work..I think I'd want more info before committing on a game plan...

Jamie Hall

Not that hard, @Dave8699 . First, it was a vapour system. Unless you want major headaches, it still needs to be a vapour system. So, step one is getting the pressure under control. Which means a vapourstat, set to cutout at 7 ounces to start with. Just do it. If the pressure control on the left is a 0 to 16 ounce vapourstat, fine -- set it properly. Otherwise, get one and install it.

Step 2 is find a water level at which the system steams without shutting off on low water. If that's an inch from the top, fine. Live with it.

Step 3 is find out where the steam in the Veco is coming from, if simply controlling the pressure didn't do it. It shouldn't be there; traps, water seals, that sort of thing -- and fix the problems. They will be out in the wilderness somewhere.

Step 4 is to consider venting.. For that you will again have to travel into the wilderness and find out if you have croissover traps and, if so, if they are working -- or, if not, what the main venting is. If it's missing, fix it. Then go look at the dry returns. Are they properly vented (they will need at least as much venting as the mains, if not more). I wouldn't, myself, rely on the Veco -- though if no steam is getting into the returns, there's no harm to it.

Now you're pretty well done with disaster control, and can tinker as you like.

ChrisJ

Mad Dog_2 said:

Do the Home Owners have ANY 💡 idea what this repipe is going to cost them?  Steam Fittings are a FORTUNE these days  .  Mad dog

Regarding "Steam fittings" aka cast iron fittings...
It's my current understanding the only benefit to them is the ability to bust them off without any cutting.

@Steamhead Any truth to this, or are there other benefits?

Any time I plan on removing piping in my house going foward I'll be using a grinder and a cutoff wheel.

Dave8699

reggi said:

Any idea of what boiler was replaced and why ? Back to basics and measure the radiators to get the EDR to compare to the boiler sitting there now..
Pressuretrol cranked up didn't do any favors on the those old traps...see if there's any with bellies on them.. they'll blow steam into the return at ounces..
The near boiler piping I'm going to guess they didn't mess too much with that because it looks too big to be hacked up..
Look under that tape wrap around the pipe coming off the boiler that you know they must of replaced and see what's there and if it's right... everything you figure they connected to..check that it's right.. they covered it up pretty good for a reason I imagine..hint hint

Just some detective work..I think I'd want more info before committing on a game plan...

So it's a monk monastery and they don't know why all they know it's been not working snice installation. 

As far as piping it looks like they didn't replace anything. They contacted to the headers and to the existing Hartford. One of the things I did eight away is measure to make sure that at least they raised the boiler high enough so the water line was above the loop.

As far as venting I didn't walking around the basement to check but all thr return piping around the boiler no vents.

Dave8699

Jamie Hall said:

Not that hard, @Dave8699 . First, it was a vapour system. Unless you want major headaches, it still needs to be a vapour system. So, step one is getting the pressure under control. Which means a vapourstat, set to cutout at 7 ounces to start with. Just do it. If the pressure control on the left is a 0 to 16 ounce vapourstat, fine -- set it properly. Otherwise, get one and install it. Step 2 is find a water level at which the system steams without shutting off on low water. If that's an inch from the top, fine. Live with it. Step 3 is find out where the steam in the Veco is coming from, if simply controlling the pressure didn't do it. It shouldn't be there; traps, water seals, that sort of thing -- and fix the problems. They will be out in the wilderness somewhere. Step 4 is to consider venting.. For that you will again have to travel into the wilderness and find out if you have croissover traps and, if so, if they are working -- or, if not, what the main venting is. If it's missing, fix it. Then go look at the dry returns. Are they properly vented (they will need at least as much venting as the mains, if not more). I wouldn't, myself, rely on the Veco -- though if no steam is getting into the returns, there's no harm to it. Now you're pretty well done with disaster control, and can tinker as you like.

Ok so here is what I have 

1. It does have a vapour stat that was set at 6oz when I got there and also the standard trol. They are wired horribly and also not piped like I like. Two pigtails and a nice low gauge. 

2. The water level I had to set high so the system didn't shut off from low level but the Veco would like steam so often from the top. 

3. The steam coming from the Veco looks like it would come from the branch connected to the header. 


Also I lowered the trol to .5 and the boiler would not last long before shutoff off. Again pressure gauge is not a good one and wiring is crazy so that another problem. 

Dave8699

Also Monk sent me another picture 

Long Beach Ed

Matt, that's a beautiful tank you got piped there.

ChrisJ

Nice skim port....

Jamie Hall

Leave the vapourstat where it is -- it's correct. The pressuretrol serves as a safety backup, not a control, and I'd probably have it a bit higher.

Not a bit surprised that there's steam from the Veco, the way it is piped, actually. Someone messed up that connection, probably several knuckleheads ago. It does need the connection to the header, if it's piped properly, but so far as i can see it no longer has the also required connection to the returns. It's probably pretty much a straight shot from the equalizing pipe out the top... Problem is that it may also be acting as the only vent on the system. This can be repiped to work properly (I'd just remove the Veco), but you will have to figure out just what pipes really are dry returns, hook them all together at the boiler well above the waterline, and provide very good main venting at that point. Then as I said, wander out into the wilderness and figure out how the steam mains were vented -- it will either be main vents at the ends or, rather more likely, crossover traps from the mains to the associated dry returns.

Dave8699

In this picture you can see the vaco has the wet return on the bottom and also a dry return next to the feed.

109A_5

Dave8699 said:

So it's a monk monastery and they don't know why all they know it's been not working snice installation.

To me this is screaming, I need skimming !!!

Per the Veco Governor documentation I would expect only one vent and it is only a pipe and not a device. And it should be in the flue taking advantage of the draft.

And yes I understand the Veco Governor may be severely dilapidated inside and no longer viable. And even if it is like new and 100 % intact restoring it to its original purpose may be beyond the skill set of many. And a Vaporstat is modern and may get you there easier, faster and at less cost, however their good track record of reliable operation is quickly fading. It would not surprise me if the existing Vaporstat is not working correctly.

Where does this pipe go.

Steamhead

According to the diagram, that should go to the condensing radiator, then to the chimney.